Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Cosmic Goose 04-10-04, 02:37 AM	Oyi, this is the second time im having to post this. damn board ate my first one. to re-cap. the spell-point system is nifty. and most of us tend to like it. only problem is that it robs the sorcerer of their key gimik, the ability to cast spontainiosly (sp?). under the SP system, every caster class can cast spontainiosly. so the sorcerer loses any unique edge it had and becomes redundant. however, the idea of a caster who derives their power from a magical ancestor is really neat, and i'd like to keep it in game if at all possable. so i was flipping through some old back-issues of Dragon magazine when i found an artical about a set of new feats called "heritage" feats. these were ment for sorcerers, to help flesh out the idea that they get their magic from their bloodline. for those who dont have the perticual issue im speaking of, it basicly gave sorceres a list of "bonus" spells they get to add to their spell lists each level, one bonus spell per level, much like a clerics Domains. this sounded like a good start, but it didnt give the sorcerer back enough of its origonal "omph". so, lets expound on that idea. Add 2 bonus spells to the sorcerers general "spells known" list. this will flesh out their versitility, and make them more viable in the face of the other classes. second, give them accsess to "arcane hertiage" lists. the sorcerer picks the sourse of his arcane power durring character creation, for those who dont have the issue of dragon that contains the heritage feats, you could substitue Cleric Domains with slight modifications easily. just use the cleric domains as a base templet, and relace any exclusivly divine spells with their arcane counterpart. now this seems to be giving the sorcerer back its punch. but it still doesnt seem like enough. sooo. either A) the sorcerer gains the use of his "heriotage" spells as spell-like abilities. OR B) he can applie Meta-magic feats for free to his heritage list. maybe both. another idea i had while typing this out would be to simply give the sorcerer 3 bonus spells to their "spells known" lists, and grant them the ability to select a metamagic feat every 5 levels (starting at 1st) that they can applie to their spells for free. the only restriction would be that the metamagic feat cannot increase the spells level more then 2 levels above its origonal. thusly nixing Quicken and Maximize from the chioces. opinions?
Kainy 04-10-04, 12:11 PM	Boy, if I had that Dragon magazine... I wish wizards would publish crunchy dragon every year or so, with all the various variants (ha) that they've published in that year.
Myztek 04-10-04, 03:46 PM	Which issue was that?
The Cosmic Goose 04-10-04, 10:28 PM	i have no idea what the issue number is. im not at my home computer right now so i cant really check. but i can tell you that its the 2nd issue of a 3 part series that dragoin did while 3.5 was newly released. but in the meantime, you could substitute clerical domains with slight modifications just fine. all you'd have to do is swap out any divine-only spells from the domain lists with their acrance equivilant. the idea of a "sorcerer of night" with the Night domain as his heritage list does sound neat. so what does everyone think of this?
Ulden Throatbane 04-12-04, 01:47 AM	You should just have sorcerers (and bards, since they are also spontaneous spellcasters) to be the only class to use spell points. Otherwise, either the sorcerer needs a large increase in power or the other primary spellcasters need severe nerfing if all spellcasters use spell points. Spellpoints do more than just rob sorcerers of their main advantage, after all. They make clerics, druids, and wizards substantially more powerful, because they now become uber-spontaneous spellcasters with the ability to swap their spells every day.
Thane of Eurmal 04-13-04, 03:48 AM	It's issue 311, and starts on page 33. I was just thinking the same thing, and came to a different possibility... It seems like Wizards are supposed to be more well-rounded, but Sorcerors throw more repeat spells (my Sorc with a Ring of Wizardry (1) can throw 14 1st-level spells a day!!!). So, keeping with this, what about a system of spells/day, spell points or Saving Throws (another thread), then varying # of spells known vs. # of spells per day. For example, a Wizard gets a book and can cast ANY spell in it, a few times per day. Maybe a Wizard could cast any spell spontaneously, but only get 1/2 their current spells at each level. On the other hand, a Sorceror has a small set of spells, but can cast them a lot more often. Maybe they stay the same. Your power levels could vary, depending on how powerful you want them to be.
Thane of Eurmal 04-13-04, 03:58 AM	Along this line, I used to run a system of Spell Points. This was before Sorcerors, waaaaay back in 1st edition... It went like this: at each level, you had 1 more Spell Point per level than the one before (1 at 1st, 3 at 2nd, 6 at 3rd, etc), and casting ANYspell in your Spellbook cost 1 Spell Point per level, squared (3rd level spells taking 9 Points, 8th taking 64). I studied math, so this didn't really slow anything down... In 3rd (or 3.5), I might suggest the above system for Wizards, and this for Sorcerors: at each level, you learn 2 new spells (1 can be at the highest level you can cast, the other must be lower) and can swap out 1 old spell for a new one (as 3.5); you have twice as many Spell Points as a Wizard. This lets them cast a bunch more spells, fitting their 'heritage', but the Wizard will shine in creation and having a more diverse spell list.
The Cosmic Goose 04-14-04, 03:13 AM	had this idea, basicly, sorceres have a very narow selection of spells, but what spells they know they are capable of manipulating in ways no other caster ever could. translating as more powerful metamagic. Just to round out the sorceres spelcasting add 2 to 3 "spells know" to each level, then starting at 1st level, and every 4th level there after, the sorcerer may select one of the following feats Empower spell Still spell Silent spell Escue materials Sculpt Spell Widen spell extend spell now, these meta-magic feats function exactly like it states in the PHB, save one aria. the sorcerer is able to use these meta-magic feats for free, with no boosting of the spells level. so how does this sound?
Ulden Throatbane 04-14-04, 09:36 AM	Eschew Materials is no longer a metamagic feat
Keleko 04-14-04, 09:49 AM	My idea for a Sorceror is that they should never have to use material, verbal or somantic components. If they truly get their spells innately, then the power comes from within them. How would they know, if they didn't study like a wizard, that they need bat guano and sulfur to toss around a fireball? This is probably the one thing about the Sorceror that bothers me the most. Wizards have to draw power to them through other means (verbal, somantic, material, etc). Sorcerors already have the power within them. How's this for another idea: something similar to a Wilder from the new psionics book. A Wilder has an ability to temporarily increase manifester level. So, give the Sorceror the "Wild Surge" ability for spells along with the potential to be dazed after doing it. Replace the power point loss with spell point loss.
Raishin Cid 04-15-04, 01:13 AM	Hmm, never saw that Dragon but I actually did about the same thing IMC. Each sorcerer choses a spell descriptor (mind-affecting is too broad to be allowed) as their "theme". Every odd level he gets a bonus learned spell of his theme (a lvl0-spell at lvl1, a lvl1-spell at lvl3 and so forth). He also gets +1 to caster level with spells from his theme. Sorcerers IMC also get bonus feats exactly like wizards. At lvl1 it is Eschew Materials. And I should also note that there are no item creation feats IMC, we use Craft skills (wizards get Craft (calligraphy) maximized for free at every level, instead of a feat at 1st level). Also, sorcerers have the option to eschew costly material components or focuses by expending XP (1 XP per GP of material, or 1 XP per 5 GP of focus). I should also note we use a different (though similar) spellpoint system, and that no one memorizes spells IMC, so I had to do some major rebalancing in spellcasting classes. The basics of our SP is thus: - SP cost = (spell level x 2) +1 - Domain/specialization school spells cost 2 points less than normal. - Everyone except paladins and rangers adds to his SP total the cost of the highest spell level he can cast, plus the key ability modifier (just like HP). Sorcerers get +2 SP per level on top of that. After level 10, SP gain rate ceases to increase based on the highest spell level available to the caster, to avoid things getting off of hand due to exaggerated flexibility. See http://paginas.terra.com.br/lazer/shinryuu/RPG/campanha/mp.htm for tables and details, but its in Brazilian Portuguese. - Paladins and rangers only get bonus SP from the key ability every even level starting at 4th. They get no base SP at levels 4,5,7,8,9; +3 base SP at level 6; +5 base SP at levels 10-20. - Damage dice don't require more SP, they function normally. But Heighten Spell is treated as a inherent part of casting spells, instead of a feat, and adds +1 to the effective caster level per additional SP. More house rules: - Bonus feats for wizards and sorcerers: any metamagic or the following: Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, Arcane Defense, Improved Familiar, Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (+2), Spell Penetration (+2), Spell Mastery. There are no Improved Spell Focus or Improved Spell Penetration IMC, but at least the normal versions don't suck big time. - Sorcerers get Knowledge (the planes), Intimidate and Use Magic Device as class skills. - Clerics get Improved Cure Wounds, so their cure wound spells are based on d10 instead of d8. - Druids get Augment Summoning for free. - Specialist wizards only suffer 1 prohibited school, but the choice is fixed for their specialization: Abjuration x Conjuration, Divination x Illusion, Enchantment x Transmutation and Necromancy x Evocation. Cantrips always ignore any rules regarding school specialization. Specialist wizards get +1 to caster level with spells from their school of specialization. Diviners cast divination spells with no components (like spell-like abilities) and need not write them down in their spellbooks (effectively free Spell Mastery); illusionists don't get +1 to caster level with illusions. - To create a magic item, one must satisfy the corresponding feat's prerequisites, plus the item's prerequisites and roll Craft checks with a DC of 15 + minimum caster level required to create the item (for example, every ring has a DC of at least 27 and can only be attempted starting at level 12). Failing by 5 or more ruins the item (so it's wise to take 10); you complete 1000 GP of the base price +50 GP per point by which you beat the DC. - Spell-completion and spell-trigger items use the user's caster level if it's greater than the item's caster level (otherwise they'de be nigh-useless in the context of my campaign).
Aurotuli 04-17-04, 05:46 AM	Sorcerers have a lot of potential, but I don't like how they are currently implemented. I grant them UMD and Presense (my version of Intimidate) as a class skills and Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level. I also allow them to use meta-magic feats on their sorcerer spells at minus one slot. Thus, if they take the feat Still Spell there is no slot adjustment when applying it to their Sor spells. There would be a slot adj if used with Wiz / Clr / Drd / etc spells. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 they gain a bonus metamagic feat. I also allow Sorcerers to sacrifice the four metamagic feats and take a bloodline instead. However, if this is chosen they may only choose spells known if the spell fits the concept of their bloodline. (Animate Dead works fine for vampiric bloodline but not Disrupt Undead or Daylight; Fey focus mostly on enchantments and illusions; etc) All in all it makes the Sorcerer both more worth playing and less a variant spontaneous Wizard. Oh, and as a final note, I have the following feat available: Greater Eschew Materials Requirement: Eschew Materials. Benefit: Your needs for material components is decreased, allowing you to work with less than is usually needed to successfully cast a spell. Crunch: You ignore 10 GP worth of material components per caster level. If the amount you can ignore is greater than the cost of the component then no component is needed to cast the spell. Thus a Wiz 5 casting a spell that needs a 100 GP gem only needs a 50 GP gem. A Wiz 20 (200 GP) can ignore most needs for components unless the cost is truly great. Originally the feat only ignored 5 GP per level, but after a few sessions that seemed a little weak around mid levels. The feat is still more or less useless for high levels (where components / focuses are often worth thousands of GP), but now (at 10 GP / Lv) it is useful well into mid levels. I originally created this feat for Clerics, as I wanted clerics of low level to be able to create holy water without the need for 5 GP of silver dust. Only human clerics can do that before Lv 3, granted, but still ....
The Cosmic Goose 04-18-04, 04:16 AM	Theres a damn good solution to the sorcerer problem in the new Psionics Guide. i think i mite get in trouble if i share to much information. so il just say this. sence the SP system was basicly a port of the new psionics rules into magic, we could look at the Wilder (which is just the psionic version of the sorcerer) for a way to fix the sorcerer. basicly, what makes the Wilder unique is the ability to "surge" his psionic powers. this grants a bonus to his caster/manifester levels (this increases range, damage, duration, and anything else that uses Caster level). this bonus goes up as the wilder increases in level. the trade off is thyat each time he surges one of his powers, theres a change that he'll suffer "psychic enervation". basicly he's drained HP and some Power points. so, grant the sorcerer the ability to "surge" his spells. and maybe 1 or 2 other class features (bonus feats like the wizard, better Skill points or Hit die?) and the sorcerer is nor relivant again. opinions?
Keleko 04-18-04, 09:28 AM	Originally posted by The Cosmic Goose Theres a damn good solution to the sorcerer problem in the new Psionics Guide. I see you didn't read my post. :) The Wilder Surge ability is just what I proposed for the Sorceror.