Sorcerers and Bloodlines [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sorcerers and Bloodlines [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crystal Monk
09-05-05, 12:48 PM a bit of a definition before I start: while they use the same name, I'm not referring to Bloodlines as defined in Unearthed Arcana. I'm referring to Bloodlines as defined in Dragon #311 and #325. the Bloodlines I'm referring to are sorcerer-based, meant to define a character's heritage and where their magic comes from. having a Bloodline means the spellcaster gets an additional spell at each level, based around a certain heritage - elemental, infernal, celestial, draconic, and so forth. the spells gained by these bloodlines are second-tier, so to speak - more utility than damage spells, the kinds of spells that wouldn't be a PC's first choice to learn. also, by having a Bloodline, the PC is restricted from learning or casting spells that oppose it - someone with a Fire Bloodline couldn't cast Water-subtype spells, and so forth.

Okay, that was a lot, but I had to introduce the idea before I asked the question. :D

In my upcoming campaign, I plan on making it so every sorcerer has a Bloodline. I'm doing this partly because I think Sorcerers are underpowered and partly because it's part of the world's history that sorcerers all draw their power from somewhere else in the planar cosmology. my concern is that this might make sorcerers too powerful, or that it would otherwise imbalance the game.

I also plan on giving all sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat for free at first level, to better reflect their inborn magic.

any thoughts would be welcome; thanks in advance.
JStegmaier
09-05-05, 05:18 PM As there sorcerer is generally underpowered in comparison with the wizard, I see no problem with what you're doing.

In fact, I do the same thing in my campaign, except, instead of just giving them the Eschew Materials feat, I give the sorcerer the ability to ignore all material components below 1 gp in cost and spend XP, if they choose, to replace costly material components, as per the Vow of Poverty in the Book of Exalted Deeds, but only for sorcerer spells. Actually, I take it one step further and give the sorcerer bonus feats at the 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels, like a wizard, except those feats can only be bloodline feats or metamagic feats.

I've only had one sorcerer PC since I implemented those changes, but he was not overpowered the party by any strech of the imagination. I don't believe giving a free bloodline feat would ever do so.
Tyler Do'Urden
09-06-05, 12:54 AM d6 hit die. More Cha-based class skills. Maybe even proficiency with light armor.

That's about it.
Blaque
09-06-05, 01:26 AM I personally like the bloodlines idea, but I'm not too usre on the idea of it making them get penalties to certain spells personally. Its soemthing that hurts the shugenja class very badly I've found in a lot of situations.

Though, I'm going toadmit, I prefer Battle Sorcerer to and more damned Cha-skills then anythingelse:)

Stuff.
Korimyr the Rat
09-07-05, 10:19 AM I replace the Sorceror's familiar with Eschew Materials and Draconic Heritage at 1st level, and then give them an extra Spell Known at every spell level drawn from a list based on their heritage. (Kinda like the bloodlines, actually.)

I only have true dragons listed, since I use different casting classes for other heritages. (Favored Soul for Outsiders, Shugenja for Elementals, and probably Bard for Fey. Most Aberrations are psionic.)
Morka
09-08-05, 11:55 AM As a side note, those Bloodlines are listed in Crystal Keep.
Crystal Monk
09-11-05, 12:16 PM thanks for your replies and thoughts.

Korimyr, I like the Draconic Heritage idea, I'd use that if I didn't have the source of sorcerers' powers already established. I'm curious, though - why take away the sorcerer's familiar?

Blaque, I kind of agree with you, but I think it works as a pretty good balancing effect. also, it makes sense to me that someone whose inherent power comes from, say, the earth wouldn't be able to use that ability to cast air-based spells, being that they're naturally opposites. I'll keep an eye on it, though, if it comes up in-game.

JStegmaier, I'm really not sure yet about bonus feats. it's something I'd thought about before, giving the sorcerer metamagic feats at the same levels as the wizard but using a different selection (Energy Substitution and the like, to show the sorc's inherent ability at work, twisting their own spells). however, I'm not sure about balance issues with that. good to know it worked in your game, though.
Korimyr the Rat
09-12-05, 08:30 AM Korimyr, I like the Draconic Heritage idea, I'd use that if I didn't have the source of sorcerers' powers already established. I'm curious, though - why take away the sorcerer's familiar?

Familiar's worth a feat-- Wizards get two feats at 1st level, and I didn't want to give Sorcerors three. For awhile, I was also considering giving them a bonus Draconic Feat every 5th level, but I decided they didn't need it.

Especially since I'm also giving them an extra, pre-selected, Spell Known at every spell level.
Franco Un-American
09-13-05, 09:29 PM Sure, that doen't sound overpowering at all. I've been planning it myself, actually.

One idea, thought. How about, instead of giving the Bloodline as a bonus feat, give them the miscellaneous benefit and 1st level spell at Sor 1, 2nd level spell at Sor 4, 3rd level spell at Sor 6, etc.? It give people a reason to stay inside the Sorcerer class.
Korimyr the Rat
09-14-05, 01:32 PM One idea, thought. How about, instead of giving the Bloodline as a bonus feat, give them the miscellaneous benefit and 1st level spell at Sor 1, 2nd level spell at Sor 4, 3rd level spell at Sor 6, etc.? It give people a reason to stay inside the Sorcerer class.

*blink* You know, this had never occurred to me.

Consider this yoinked.
Crystal Monk
09-14-05, 09:14 PM One idea, thought. How about, instead of giving the Bloodline as a bonus feat, give them the miscellaneous benefit and 1st level spell at Sor 1, 2nd level spell at Sor 4, 3rd level spell at Sor 6, etc.? It give people a reason to stay inside the Sorcerer class.
wow... that's really cool. I hadn't thought of giving the Bloodline spells at an earlier level, and making it in line with the wizard progression would definitely give the sorc a reason to stick with it. I'll have to use that, thank you!
Koga:The ninja trick
09-15-05, 02:57 AM The Koga doesn't see anything wrong with what you're doing, he personaly allows a sorcerer to choose a bloodline at second level like a ranger does a combat style. (They discover the depths of thier heritage at second level.)

They then gain any feats presented in Dr@gon on that bloodline tree during periods of the 20 levels to further establish thier evolution. But they can't have more then one bloodline..
Save-vs-DM
09-15-05, 05:42 AM I think you're fine.

In my games, I actually give sorcerers a free intermediate bloodline from Unearthed Arcana, without the need to purchase bloodline levels.

No on STILL plays a sorcerer (okay, we hvae one, but it's because he really shouldn't be playing a wizard, he's very, very bad about memorizing spells each day).

I think your changes are perfectly fine. I think that our poor old sorcerer really needs some lovin'

Cheers,
Save vs DM

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crystal Monk 09-05-05, 12:48 PM	a bit of a definition before I start: while they use the same name, I'm not referring to Bloodlines as defined in Unearthed Arcana. I'm referring to Bloodlines as defined in Dragon #311 and #325. the Bloodlines I'm referring to are sorcerer-based, meant to define a character's heritage and where their magic comes from. having a Bloodline means the spellcaster gets an additional spell at each level, based around a certain heritage - elemental, infernal, celestial, draconic, and so forth. the spells gained by these bloodlines are second-tier, so to speak - more utility than damage spells, the kinds of spells that wouldn't be a PC's first choice to learn. also, by having a Bloodline, the PC is restricted from learning or casting spells that oppose it - someone with a Fire Bloodline couldn't cast Water-subtype spells, and so forth. Okay, that was a lot, but I had to introduce the idea before I asked the question. :D In my upcoming campaign, I plan on making it so every sorcerer has a Bloodline. I'm doing this partly because I think Sorcerers are underpowered and partly because it's part of the world's history that sorcerers all draw their power from somewhere else in the planar cosmology. my concern is that this might make sorcerers too powerful, or that it would otherwise imbalance the game. I also plan on giving all sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat for free at first level, to better reflect their inborn magic. any thoughts would be welcome; thanks in advance.
JStegmaier 09-05-05, 05:18 PM	As there sorcerer is generally underpowered in comparison with the wizard, I see no problem with what you're doing. In fact, I do the same thing in my campaign, except, instead of just giving them the Eschew Materials feat, I give the sorcerer the ability to ignore all material components below 1 gp in cost and spend XP, if they choose, to replace costly material components, as per the Vow of Poverty in the Book of Exalted Deeds, but only for sorcerer spells. Actually, I take it one step further and give the sorcerer bonus feats at the 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels, like a wizard, except those feats can only be bloodline feats or metamagic feats. I've only had one sorcerer PC since I implemented those changes, but he was not overpowered the party by any strech of the imagination. I don't believe giving a free bloodline feat would ever do so.
Tyler Do'Urden 09-06-05, 12:54 AM	d6 hit die. More Cha-based class skills. Maybe even proficiency with light armor. That's about it.
Blaque 09-06-05, 01:26 AM	I personally like the bloodlines idea, but I'm not too usre on the idea of it making them get penalties to certain spells personally. Its soemthing that hurts the shugenja class very badly I've found in a lot of situations. Though, I'm going toadmit, I prefer Battle Sorcerer to and more damned Cha-skills then anythingelse:) Stuff.
Korimyr the Rat 09-07-05, 10:19 AM	I replace the Sorceror's familiar with Eschew Materials and Draconic Heritage at 1st level, and then give them an extra Spell Known at every spell level drawn from a list based on their heritage. (Kinda like the bloodlines, actually.) I only have true dragons listed, since I use different casting classes for other heritages. (Favored Soul for Outsiders, Shugenja for Elementals, and probably Bard for Fey. Most Aberrations are psionic.)
Morka 09-08-05, 11:55 AM	As a side note, those Bloodlines are listed in Crystal Keep.
Crystal Monk 09-11-05, 12:16 PM	thanks for your replies and thoughts. Korimyr, I like the Draconic Heritage idea, I'd use that if I didn't have the source of sorcerers' powers already established. I'm curious, though - why take away the sorcerer's familiar? Blaque, I kind of agree with you, but I think it works as a pretty good balancing effect. also, it makes sense to me that someone whose inherent power comes from, say, the earth wouldn't be able to use that ability to cast air-based spells, being that they're naturally opposites. I'll keep an eye on it, though, if it comes up in-game. JStegmaier, I'm really not sure yet about bonus feats. it's something I'd thought about before, giving the sorcerer metamagic feats at the same levels as the wizard but using a different selection (Energy Substitution and the like, to show the sorc's inherent ability at work, twisting their own spells). however, I'm not sure about balance issues with that. good to know it worked in your game, though.
Korimyr the Rat 09-12-05, 08:30 AM	Korimyr, I like the Draconic Heritage idea, I'd use that if I didn't have the source of sorcerers' powers already established. I'm curious, though - why take away the sorcerer's familiar? Familiar's worth a feat-- Wizards get two feats at 1st level, and I didn't want to give Sorcerors three. For awhile, I was also considering giving them a bonus Draconic Feat every 5th level, but I decided they didn't need it. Especially since I'm also giving them an extra, pre-selected, Spell Known at every spell level.
Franco Un-American 09-13-05, 09:29 PM	Sure, that doen't sound overpowering at all. I've been planning it myself, actually. One idea, thought. How about, instead of giving the Bloodline as a bonus feat, give them the miscellaneous benefit and 1st level spell at Sor 1, 2nd level spell at Sor 4, 3rd level spell at Sor 6, etc.? It give people a reason to stay inside the Sorcerer class.
Korimyr the Rat 09-14-05, 01:32 PM	One idea, thought. How about, instead of giving the Bloodline as a bonus feat, give them the miscellaneous benefit and 1st level spell at Sor 1, 2nd level spell at Sor 4, 3rd level spell at Sor 6, etc.? It give people a reason to stay inside the Sorcerer class. blink You know, this had never occurred to me. Consider this yoinked.
Crystal Monk 09-14-05, 09:14 PM	One idea, thought. How about, instead of giving the Bloodline as a bonus feat, give them the miscellaneous benefit and 1st level spell at Sor 1, 2nd level spell at Sor 4, 3rd level spell at Sor 6, etc.? It give people a reason to stay inside the Sorcerer class. wow... that's really cool. I hadn't thought of giving the Bloodline spells at an earlier level, and making it in line with the wizard progression would definitely give the sorc a reason to stick with it. I'll have to use that, thank you!
Koga:The ninja trick 09-15-05, 02:57 AM	The Koga doesn't see anything wrong with what you're doing, he personaly allows a sorcerer to choose a bloodline at second level like a ranger does a combat style. (They discover the depths of thier heritage at second level.) They then gain any feats presented in Dr@gon on that bloodline tree during periods of the 20 levels to further establish thier evolution. But they can't have more then one bloodline..
Save-vs-DM 09-15-05, 05:42 AM	I think you're fine. In my games, I actually give sorcerers a free intermediate bloodline from Unearthed Arcana, without the need to purchase bloodline levels. No on STILL plays a sorcerer (okay, we hvae one, but it's because he really shouldn't be playing a wizard, he's very, very bad about memorizing spells each day). I think your changes are perfectly fine. I think that our poor old sorcerer really needs some lovin' Cheers, Save vs DM