Special Abilities For Sorcerer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Special Abilities For Sorcerer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
eggplantm
03-12-04, 12:31 PM I had a thought.

I've heard many people complain about the lack of special abilities for sorcerers and how it detracts from their flavor and makes staying core or taking a PRC a no-brainer choice. I've had some ideas on this.

1. What if sorcerers get a major bloodline from Unearthed Arcana at 1st level but do not have to "give up" levels like others who take bloodlines do? I know that a lot of the feats like power attack will not be useful at first but hey its for flavor mostly. The bloodline benefits in essence become the sorcerer's class features.

Characters who take a level of sorcerer later to multiclass would have to take a bloodline as well. It just makes things simpler. However, I have heard of many DM's that do not let people become sorcerers at later level. It's 1st level sorcerer or nothing.

2. Dragon had an article where you spend a feat at first level to get access to a domain of spells. This works differently for the sorcerer in that it just adds to his spells known but they all have a coherent theme that plays off of their heritage. This gives power to the sorcerer but not any interest or flavor unless you somehow tie it in to the bloodline aspect in some way.

I kind of like the first solution better as I don't think sorcerers need any more power. They are the fighters of the magic world. Often very focused but very efficient at what they do.
Crusher Nate
03-12-04, 01:17 PM A major bloodline as a class feature might be a little strong. It may also complicate multiclassing.

How about making a major bloodline into a class skill for the Sorcerer instead? It seems rather cheap for the benefits you'd get, but at least he'd be paying something for it. And Sorcerers don't get a whole lot of skill points, anyway. You could also make it an exclusive skill, so you couldn't immediately multiclass out of Sorcerer and just dump cross-class ranks into it.

They could begin receiving the benefits at 4 ranks, and have the benefits of a bloodlined character whose level equals their "Getting in Touch with Myself" (or whatever it'd be called) skill ranks -3.

This "skill" could also grant a synergy bonus to Knowledge checks pertaining to your chosen bloodline.
FenixZero
03-12-04, 01:31 PM What you could do is give an intermedate (sp?) bloodline as a class feature. They pick one and then stick with it all the way through.

Thats what I am doing for my campaign.

FenixZero
Crusher Nate
03-12-04, 01:36 PM A couple of additions to my suggestion:

You might want to consider taking Familiar away from the Sorcerer while you're at it. Otherwise, Sorcerer becomes clearly better than Wizard.

You could also allow Bards to purchase the skill cross-class due to their similarity to Sorcerers.
Myztek
03-12-04, 02:45 PM If I were to redo the sorcerer from scratch, but maintain their spellcasting capabilities mostly as they are written, I'd do the following:

1.) Get rid of the familiar.

2.) Have the sorcerer select a heritage: celestial, demonic, devlish, elemental, draconic, fey, natural, etc ... As the PC advanced, they would gain special abilities relating to their heritage (much like an elemental savant, dragon disciple, etc ..., but spread over 20 levels). This would be very similar to the bloodlines rules.

3.) Rework the sorcerer spell list so that it does not duplicate the wizard list. I would create about 20 spell fields that covers every spell in the book (wizard, clerical, druidic, bard, etc ...). A sorcerer would be able to choose a number of these fields from which to select his spells known (maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the fields would be allowed). The other spell fields would be treated as if they were not on his class spell list. The fields would be something like: earth, fire, water, air, good, evil, law, chaos, healing, warfare, nature, time, etc ... (similar to clerical domains, but without a restriction to divine spells). Certain fields would only be available to certain heritages (ie; good only for celestial heritage sorcerers, etc ...)

That systems gives the sorcerer some flair and makes it a very different beast than a wizard.
eggplantm
03-12-04, 02:59 PM Originally posted by FenixZero
What you could do is give an intermedate (sp?) bloodline as a class feature. They pick one and then stick with it all the way through.

Thats what I am doing for my campaign.

FenixZero

I didn't think that the major bloodline would be too powerful because a lot of it does not relate to sorcery. Much of it includes bonuses to skills, and combat related feats and ability bonuses.

I think you could make a multiclass character pretty powerful with a careful build, but not so much a straight sorcerer. Do you really think the major bloodline is too powerful for them?

Myztek, I agree with getting rid of the familiar. It should have always been left to the wizard. Both of them having it just makes the sorcerer look more like a quick variation of the wizard instead of its own unique class.

Crusher nate, I don't think having it as a skill would work. It just isn't like any other skill. Basically, I envisioned it as if the bloodline levels become the class features of the sorcerer at the same level. So a 5th level sorcerer has all the benefits of a 5th level major bloodline. I wish I had my UA in front of me to help with this.

Myztek, While I think sorcerer could benefit from a major revision I'm looking for something to add to them that doesn't make them much more powerful and gives them some interesting flavor. I thought that as the character gains levels in sorcerous power, they also gain a stronger connection to their heritage as a result and get some interesting (but not incredible) bonuses as a result.
Crusher Nate
03-12-04, 05:12 PM It is a good idea. Three of my four players have some sort of pet, so I think I'll offer the Rogue/Sorcerer a retroactive switch to a bloodline in place of his familiar.

Giving up Familiar to get the Bloodline, and basing its benefits on your Sorcerer class level rather than your character level, would do exactly what I was trying to do with the skill suggestion without an additional cost to the Sorcerer. That is better.
Vaelan
03-12-04, 05:50 PM I like the idea. While I have doubts about the balance of the free Major bloodline, if it were based on Sorcerer level alone, then the discouragement to multiclass makes it appear to be both balanced and interesting.
FenixZero
03-12-04, 07:00 PM I would only allow a major blood line if they got it for free and didn't have to pay experience for it. Because the experience for the bloodline count towards casters levels.

FenixZero
Elindor
03-13-04, 08:31 PM I'm liking this idea, although I'd go with Intermediate bloodlines myself - You get most of the Traditional sorcerous blood options in there, and it's not quite so overwhelming in terms of power. I'd define it as a Sorcerer Class ability, so only Sorcerer levels would apply, and drop the Familiar out of the class. Naturally, no need to purchase bloodline levels with this ruleset - since it's a "magical bloodline", you're simply bringing yourself closer to your heritage.

In order to keep things fair (and in flavour), I'd also give Bards the option to take a Minor Bloodline - what to exchange for that, though...

This does lead to an interesting consideration, however - If this option is taken up, how about tweaking the prerequisites for Dragon Disciple (Especially if non-sorcerers can't use bloodlines in the campaign)? Something like...

Race : Any nondragon
Skills : Knowledge (Arcana) 8 Ranks
Languages : Draconic
Special : Must have a Draconic Bloodline. They advance as the type of dragon that their bloodline is from.

Maybe something similar could be done to the Elemental Savant...
Elindor
03-13-04, 08:57 PM Further consideration - The Sorcerer's spell list can be based on their bloodline. For example, a Red Dragon bloodline would allow access to the Wizard spell list except for spells with the Cold, Good and Law descriptors, and access to all Cleric and Druid spells with the Fire, Evil and Chaos descriptors.

A Sorcerer with the Fey bloodline would get access to the Druid spell list as opposed to the Wizard spell list. A Celestial / Demonic / Devilish bloodline would give access to the Clerical spell list as well as other spells with the appropriate descriptors. That sort of thing... and a full list would take a bit of time to come up with...
FenixZero
03-13-04, 09:04 PM Elindor

You have some very good ideas. Those work very well. But what I wonder could you have one bloodline because of your sorcerer levels and one for being a regular characters, that would be pretty cool:drool:.

FenixZero
Elindor
03-13-04, 09:47 PM Personally, if bloodlines are being used in this way, I'd argue that they should only be used for Sorcerers in this way - Getting the benefits of multiple bloodlines would probably be a bit powerful, and take away from the new flavour of the Sorcerer presented above.

If you were to use Bloodlines in addition to the "Blooded Sorcerer", I'd limit it to minor bloodlines only - anything higher would probably start causing game balance issues.

I feel a creative burst coming on... may have to write some more details about this, but not right now - I've got work to do...
Szatany
03-14-04, 01:51 AM Originally posted by Myztek
If I were to redo the sorcerer from scratch, but maintain their spellcasting capabilities mostly as they are written, I'd do the following:

1.) Get rid of the familiar.

2.) Have the sorcerer select a heritage: celestial, demonic, devlish, elemental, draconic, fey, natural, etc ... As the PC advanced, they would gain special abilities relating to their heritage (much like an elemental savant, dragon disciple, etc ..., but spread over 20 levels). This would be very similar to the bloodlines rules.

Its already done here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174004)
Crusher Nate
03-15-04, 11:14 AM I noticed in UA that Battle Sorcerers don't lose the familiar. Now I'm just itching to play a Battle Sorcerer with the Titan bloodline!

I was also thinking that bloodlines should be advanced by an appropriate prestige class, and that those PrC's could require a Sorcerer to be of the proper bloodline. Blood Magus or Pale Master would be cool with the Vampire bloodline, Heartwarder with the Fey bloodline, etc.

I think the way I'd handle it is that the Sorcerer gets progression as a major bloodline, while the prestige classes slow it down to an intermediate bloodline since those PrC's give other attributes of the creature type.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eggplantm 03-12-04, 12:31 PM	I had a thought. I've heard many people complain about the lack of special abilities for sorcerers and how it detracts from their flavor and makes staying core or taking a PRC a no-brainer choice. I've had some ideas on this. 1. What if sorcerers get a major bloodline from Unearthed Arcana at 1st level but do not have to "give up" levels like others who take bloodlines do? I know that a lot of the feats like power attack will not be useful at first but hey its for flavor mostly. The bloodline benefits in essence become the sorcerer's class features. Characters who take a level of sorcerer later to multiclass would have to take a bloodline as well. It just makes things simpler. However, I have heard of many DM's that do not let people become sorcerers at later level. It's 1st level sorcerer or nothing. 2. Dragon had an article where you spend a feat at first level to get access to a domain of spells. This works differently for the sorcerer in that it just adds to his spells known but they all have a coherent theme that plays off of their heritage. This gives power to the sorcerer but not any interest or flavor unless you somehow tie it in to the bloodline aspect in some way. I kind of like the first solution better as I don't think sorcerers need any more power. They are the fighters of the magic world. Often very focused but very efficient at what they do.
Crusher Nate 03-12-04, 01:17 PM	A major bloodline as a class feature might be a little strong. It may also complicate multiclassing. How about making a major bloodline into a class skill for the Sorcerer instead? It seems rather cheap for the benefits you'd get, but at least he'd be paying something for it. And Sorcerers don't get a whole lot of skill points, anyway. You could also make it an exclusive skill, so you couldn't immediately multiclass out of Sorcerer and just dump cross-class ranks into it. They could begin receiving the benefits at 4 ranks, and have the benefits of a bloodlined character whose level equals their "Getting in Touch with Myself" (or whatever it'd be called) skill ranks -3. This "skill" could also grant a synergy bonus to Knowledge checks pertaining to your chosen bloodline.
FenixZero 03-12-04, 01:31 PM	What you could do is give an intermedate (sp?) bloodline as a class feature. They pick one and then stick with it all the way through. Thats what I am doing for my campaign. FenixZero
Crusher Nate 03-12-04, 01:36 PM	A couple of additions to my suggestion: You might want to consider taking Familiar away from the Sorcerer while you're at it. Otherwise, Sorcerer becomes clearly better than Wizard. You could also allow Bards to purchase the skill cross-class due to their similarity to Sorcerers.
Myztek 03-12-04, 02:45 PM	If I were to redo the sorcerer from scratch, but maintain their spellcasting capabilities mostly as they are written, I'd do the following: 1.) Get rid of the familiar. 2.) Have the sorcerer select a heritage: celestial, demonic, devlish, elemental, draconic, fey, natural, etc ... As the PC advanced, they would gain special abilities relating to their heritage (much like an elemental savant, dragon disciple, etc ..., but spread over 20 levels). This would be very similar to the bloodlines rules. 3.) Rework the sorcerer spell list so that it does not duplicate the wizard list. I would create about 20 spell fields that covers every spell in the book (wizard, clerical, druidic, bard, etc ...). A sorcerer would be able to choose a number of these fields from which to select his spells known (maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the fields would be allowed). The other spell fields would be treated as if they were not on his class spell list. The fields would be something like: earth, fire, water, air, good, evil, law, chaos, healing, warfare, nature, time, etc ... (similar to clerical domains, but without a restriction to divine spells). Certain fields would only be available to certain heritages (ie; good only for celestial heritage sorcerers, etc ...) That systems gives the sorcerer some flair and makes it a very different beast than a wizard.
eggplantm 03-12-04, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by FenixZero What you could do is give an intermedate (sp?) bloodline as a class feature. They pick one and then stick with it all the way through. Thats what I am doing for my campaign. FenixZero I didn't think that the major bloodline would be too powerful because a lot of it does not relate to sorcery. Much of it includes bonuses to skills, and combat related feats and ability bonuses. I think you could make a multiclass character pretty powerful with a careful build, but not so much a straight sorcerer. Do you really think the major bloodline is too powerful for them? Myztek, I agree with getting rid of the familiar. It should have always been left to the wizard. Both of them having it just makes the sorcerer look more like a quick variation of the wizard instead of its own unique class. Crusher nate, I don't think having it as a skill would work. It just isn't like any other skill. Basically, I envisioned it as if the bloodline levels become the class features of the sorcerer at the same level. So a 5th level sorcerer has all the benefits of a 5th level major bloodline. I wish I had my UA in front of me to help with this. Myztek, While I think sorcerer could benefit from a major revision I'm looking for something to add to them that doesn't make them much more powerful and gives them some interesting flavor. I thought that as the character gains levels in sorcerous power, they also gain a stronger connection to their heritage as a result and get some interesting (but not incredible) bonuses as a result.
Crusher Nate 03-12-04, 05:12 PM	It is a good idea. Three of my four players have some sort of pet, so I think I'll offer the Rogue/Sorcerer a retroactive switch to a bloodline in place of his familiar. Giving up Familiar to get the Bloodline, and basing its benefits on your Sorcerer class level rather than your character level, would do exactly what I was trying to do with the skill suggestion without an additional cost to the Sorcerer. That is better.
Vaelan 03-12-04, 05:50 PM	I like the idea. While I have doubts about the balance of the free Major bloodline, if it were based on Sorcerer level alone, then the discouragement to multiclass makes it appear to be both balanced and interesting.
FenixZero 03-12-04, 07:00 PM	I would only allow a major blood line if they got it for free and didn't have to pay experience for it. Because the experience for the bloodline count towards casters levels. FenixZero
Elindor 03-13-04, 08:31 PM	I'm liking this idea, although I'd go with Intermediate bloodlines myself - You get most of the Traditional sorcerous blood options in there, and it's not quite so overwhelming in terms of power. I'd define it as a Sorcerer Class ability, so only Sorcerer levels would apply, and drop the Familiar out of the class. Naturally, no need to purchase bloodline levels with this ruleset - since it's a "magical bloodline", you're simply bringing yourself closer to your heritage. In order to keep things fair (and in flavour), I'd also give Bards the option to take a Minor Bloodline - what to exchange for that, though... This does lead to an interesting consideration, however - If this option is taken up, how about tweaking the prerequisites for Dragon Disciple (Especially if non-sorcerers can't use bloodlines in the campaign)? Something like... Race : Any nondragon Skills : Knowledge (Arcana) 8 Ranks Languages : Draconic Special : Must have a Draconic Bloodline. They advance as the type of dragon that their bloodline is from. Maybe something similar could be done to the Elemental Savant...
Elindor 03-13-04, 08:57 PM	Further consideration - The Sorcerer's spell list can be based on their bloodline. For example, a Red Dragon bloodline would allow access to the Wizard spell list except for spells with the Cold, Good and Law descriptors, and access to all Cleric and Druid spells with the Fire, Evil and Chaos descriptors. A Sorcerer with the Fey bloodline would get access to the Druid spell list as opposed to the Wizard spell list. A Celestial / Demonic / Devilish bloodline would give access to the Clerical spell list as well as other spells with the appropriate descriptors. That sort of thing... and a full list would take a bit of time to come up with...
FenixZero 03-13-04, 09:04 PM	Elindor You have some very good ideas. Those work very well. But what I wonder could you have one bloodline because of your sorcerer levels and one for being a regular characters, that would be pretty cool:drool:. FenixZero
Elindor 03-13-04, 09:47 PM	Personally, if bloodlines are being used in this way, I'd argue that they should only be used for Sorcerers in this way - Getting the benefits of multiple bloodlines would probably be a bit powerful, and take away from the new flavour of the Sorcerer presented above. If you were to use Bloodlines in addition to the "Blooded Sorcerer", I'd limit it to minor bloodlines only - anything higher would probably start causing game balance issues. I feel a creative burst coming on... may have to write some more details about this, but not right now - I've got work to do...
Szatany 03-14-04, 01:51 AM	Originally posted by Myztek If I were to redo the sorcerer from scratch, but maintain their spellcasting capabilities mostly as they are written, I'd do the following: 1.) Get rid of the familiar. 2.) Have the sorcerer select a heritage: celestial, demonic, devlish, elemental, draconic, fey, natural, etc ... As the PC advanced, they would gain special abilities relating to their heritage (much like an elemental savant, dragon disciple, etc ..., but spread over 20 levels). This would be very similar to the bloodlines rules. Its already done here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174004)
Crusher Nate 03-15-04, 11:14 AM	I noticed in UA that Battle Sorcerers don't lose the familiar. Now I'm just itching to play a Battle Sorcerer with the Titan bloodline! I was also thinking that bloodlines should be advanced by an appropriate prestige class, and that those PrC's could require a Sorcerer to be of the proper bloodline. Blood Magus or Pale Master would be cool with the Vampire bloodline, Heartwarder with the Fey bloodline, etc. I think the way I'd handle it is that the Sorcerer gets progression as a major bloodline, while the prestige classes slow it down to an intermediate bloodline since those PrC's give other attributes of the creature type.