Spell DC houserule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell DC houserule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
God of Slivers
08-06-07, 03:40 AM I am considering using a houserule to determine spell dc instead of the usual method. The reason I am doing this is three-fold. One, this allows epic casters to have their DCs keep pace with saving throw progressions. Two, by using this houserule low level spells don't become useless and scale with level. Three, it allows casters to boost their DCs the same way other characters can boost their saves.

And now for the houserule: Save DC = 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod

Please let me know what you think.
BluEnigma
08-06-07, 04:01 AM It's much easier to boost CL than it is to boost DCs. This will result in the overall raising of save DCs if you have any good optimizers in the party. If you think that's what's necessary for the game, go ahead, but personally I don't think Epic play is worth breaking the normal 1-20 any more than it already is.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-06-07, 06:06 PM What Blu said is true, but you could simply rule that for the purpose of DCs your caster level can't exceed your class level.
runestar
08-06-07, 10:56 PM I have never liked that a 1st lv charm person spell would be as hard to resist as a 9th lv wail of the banshee. I mean - the latter is supposed to be more powerful, all the more it should be tougher to save against.

Monster saves at epic are problematic - I give you that, since they will quickly outstrip your save dcs, despite your best efforts at boosting them, forcing you to rely on spells which do not allow saves or at least have a respectable effect even on a save, or go shadowcraft mage (where a successful save nets even more penalties than a failed save).

Two, by using this houserule low level spells don't become useless and scale with level.

I would argue that they should be. Or you could use lower lv slots on utility spells or those which eschew saves. For example, no one bothers with magic missile at higher lvs, not when it could be converted to a shot of arcane fire.

Another gripe I have with this is the spells' expected interaction with metamagic. Why would I bother with a cone of cold at 9th lv, when I could have an empowered fireball? The latter deals more damage, and both end up with the same save dc, since it is no longer spell lv dependent.

Three, it allows casters to boost their DCs the same way other characters can boost their saves.

You already do that by casting the highest lv spell you have, specifically targeting their weakest save, and combining this with debuffing spells such as limited wish and enervation. If we go by the 4-encounters/day assumption, then all the more the wiz should not be able to cast all his spells at his highest dc, IMO.
Steely_Dan
08-07-07, 06:16 AM And now for the houserule: Save DC = 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod

That is exactly what my group has adopted, and it's working out beautifully.

We also use the saving throws as defences (magic checks) variant from UA – much more fun and proactive.
runestar
08-07-07, 09:54 AM Or you could consider psionics.
Steely_Dan
08-08-07, 03:36 AM Or you could consider psionics.

We use both.

We dabbled with spell points, but came to the conclusion that it doesn't quite jive, so now we have gone with a per encounter system for magic and psionics.
runestar
08-08-07, 06:52 AM We dabbled with spell points, but came to the conclusion that it doesn't quite jive, so now we have gone with a per encounter system for magic and psionics.

Just curious - what was your take on spell point system? :)
Steely_Dan
08-08-07, 07:00 AM Just curious - what was your take on spell point system? :)

It seemed all right at first, but me (the DM) and one of my players (the psion), realized that the antiquated Gygaxian spell system was never designed with a point system in mind as psionics is. So much of the auto-scaling of many spells became a problem compared to psionics.

It just quite doesn't work; it's too much like shoe-horning in a concept meant for something else entirely.

I would prefer a magic and psionic system that is neither slot nor point based.
pauln6
08-08-07, 10:18 AM That is exactly what my group has adopted, and it's working out beautifully.

We also use the saving throws as defences (magic checks) variant from UA – much more fun and proactive.

Or you could try DC10 + 1/4 level + ability modifier or the standard DC, whichever is greater. It means at lower levels spell DCS stay the same and they only creep up gradually as the caster increases in level.

That's what I'm using for Shadowcaster supernatural abilities it just tweaks the lower level spells slightly but without changing overall DCs too drastically.
pauln6
08-08-07, 10:27 AM I suppose you could also add spell level to the DC. So a 1st level spell by a 20th level caster would be DC20+ while 9th level would be DC28+ Not horrendously game breaking I suppose.
ragoftag
08-08-07, 07:41 PM One could also scale DCs as the character progresses. a friend uses something like that, but a level 1 spell doesn't get a + to the DC till level 7 or 9, and the second till level 15-ish (?).
God of Slivers
08-10-07, 03:53 AM I'm really not seeing how abusable this is, could anyone provide an example? Keep in mind that your highest level spell DC will actually be lower on the level that you gain them (odd levels). I thought that this would be a pretty good balance to the rule. I really like this rule because it simplifies encounters a lot (creatures spell like abilities and supernatural abilities follow this as well).
Steely_Dan
08-10-07, 03:56 AM I'm really not seeing how abusable this is, could anyone provide an example? Keep in mind that your highest level spell DC will actually be lower on the level that you gain them (odd levels). I thought that this would be a pretty good balance to the rule. I really like this rule because it simplifies encounters a lot (creatures spell like abilities and supernatural abilities follow this as well).

My group has gone this route and it works out marvellously.
BilopTheFleshwarper
08-10-07, 09:52 AM 10 + 1/2 CL + stat mod

it's perfect! but only for their highest level spells... oh say progressing into epic where the wizard has 15th level spellslots at 30th level and heightens his twinned energy adamixtured maximized burning hands.

seriously, the best way to get higher DC's on low level spells is to not cast them as low level spells cast them as higher level spells. there is a reason my cleric has a heightened sanctuary racked at max level slot every day.
archerpwr
08-10-07, 10:41 AM What Blu said is true, but you could simply rule that for the purpose of DCs your caster level can't exceed your class level.

With that addition I think this would work wonderfully.
Seldriss
08-10-07, 11:16 AM It should be harder to resist a high level spell than a low level one.
It should be harder to resist a high level spellcaster than a low level one.
Right ? So what about that :

DC10 +Caster Level /2 + Spell Level ?

No modifier from the ability, which gives more spells and spell points already anyway.
Steely_Dan
08-10-07, 11:19 AM It should be harder to resist a high level spell than a low level one.
It should be harder to resist a high level spellcaster than a low level one.
Right ? So what about that :

DC10 +Caster Level /2 + Spell Level ?

No modifier from the ability, which gives more spells and spell points already anyway.

Yeah, nice, I was thinking about that.

Will talk with my group – thanks.
God of Slivers
08-10-07, 07:58 PM It should be harder to resist a high level spell than a low level one.
It should be harder to resist a high level spellcaster than a low level one.
Right ? So what about that :

DC10 +Caster Level /2 + Spell Level ?

No modifier from the ability, which gives more spells and spell points already anyway.

I actually think this makes spellcasters too powerful. With this method they no longer need to boost their casting stat. This will save them a lot of time and resources that can be put to other uses.

To be honest I'm not very familiar with divine casters (don't really care for them and only one member ever plays one) so I don't know how breakable it is from that side, but on the arcane side I can't think of this being a problem.
Ertai Planeswalker
08-13-07, 11:52 AM I actually think this makes spellcasters too powerful. With this method they no longer need to boost their casting stat. This will save them a lot of time and resources that can be put to other uses.

To be honest I'm not very familiar with divine casters (don't really care for them and only one member ever plays one) so I don't know how breakable it is from that side, but on the arcane side I can't think of this being a problem.

I agree, there should be some incentive for casters to increase their casting stat. While bonus spells are nice, you need a ridiculously high casting stat to get high level bonus spells.

10+1/2Casterlevel+ability modifier works wel. Even though this might make higher level spells just as easy to resist as lower level ones, lower level spells are still capped and as such, will not have an as powerfull effect as a high level one.
God of Slivers
08-13-07, 06:22 PM I agree, there should be some incentive for casters to increase their casting stat. While bonus spells are nice, you need a ridiculously high casting stat to get high level bonus spells.

10+1/2Casterlevel+ability modifier works wel. Even though this might make higher level spells just as easy to resist as lower level ones, lower level spells are still capped and as such, will not have an as powerfull effect as a high level one.

That was my thought. Plus, the added bonus of only having one DC you need to remember when dealing with a monster with 20+ spell like abilities is a real time saver. Plus, it should be mentioned that on the odd levels when new spells are acquired that the highest level spells will actually have a DC of one lower than the current system of 10 + spell level + ability mod.
TheDarkLord
08-13-07, 07:09 PM I myself use 1d20 + 1/2 CL + Mod. But then again, I use a variant Vanacian system as well.

I would, and I hope you do as well, don't let things that raise Caster Level Raise this check as well, things can, and will get out of hand in a hurry. A few feats and all would be ok, but to let Every, Single Thing that boosts CL, stack with this check would be very unbalancing.
God of Slivers
08-13-07, 09:58 PM I myself use 1d20 + 1/2 CL + Mod. But then again, I use a variant Vanacian system as well.

I would, and I hope you do as well, don't let things that raise Caster Level Raise this check as well, things can, and will get out of hand in a hurry. A few feats and all would be ok, but to let Every, Single Thing that boosts CL, stack with this check would be very unbalancing.

Aside from a few feats and and a few odd magic items I'm unaware of anything that boosts CL by a significant amount. Were there any in particular you were referring to?
Steely_Dan
08-14-07, 04:49 AM I agree, there should be some incentive for casters to increase their casting stat.

Well, you would still need a 19 to cast 9th level spells.
MikeyP
08-14-07, 12:25 PM That is exactly what my group has adopted, and it's working out beautifully.

We also use the saving throws as defences (magic checks) variant from UA – much more fun and proactive.

Hey Steely_Dan, I'm looking for that in UA and just can't seem to figure out which variant you mean here. Any chance you could tell me what page # that is?

Thanks!
Ertai Planeswalker
08-14-07, 05:04 PM Aside from a few feats and and a few odd magic items I'm unaware of anything that boosts CL by a significant amount. Were there any in particular you were referring to?

Well it is possible if you dedicate a lot to it. My current PC is a Phoenix Themed Fireblaster Sorceress. Her feats are, among others, Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics and Fiery Burst. As such, i cast my fire based theme spells at +4 casterlevel. But then again, i spend 3 feats on it.
God of Slivers
08-14-07, 11:33 PM Well it is possible if you dedicate a lot to it. My current PC is a Phoenix Themed Fireblaster Sorceress. Her feats are, among others, Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics and Fiery Burst. As such, i cast my fire based theme spells at +4 casterlevel. But then again, i spend 3 feats on it.

If you want to spend three feats to get an effective +2 DC on your themed fire spells only I have absolutely zero problem with that.

Now as I said my knowledge of divine casters is a little weak, so maybe it's easily abusable their, but to my knowledge there isn't a whole lot to break it on the arcane side.
Steely_Dan
08-15-07, 06:49 AM Hey Steely_Dan, I'm looking for that in UA and just can't seem to figure out which variant you mean here. Any chance you could tell me what page # that is?

Thanks!

Hey, MikeyP - check it out:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAn dSaveScores
MikeyP
08-15-07, 11:03 AM Hey, MikeyP - check it out:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAn dSaveScores

Ah, okay, I didn't realize that it was part of the "Players roll all the dice" variant, thanks.

So, could you by any chance give some more feedback about how it's been going in your games? Problems? Benefits?
Steely_Dan
08-15-07, 11:13 AM Ah, okay, I didn't realize that it was part of the "Players roll all the dice" variant, thanks.

So, could you by any chance give some more feedback about how it's been going in your games? Problems? Benefits?

Well, it is a lot more fun for the players, instead of the player saying I cast charm person or what have you, and waiting for the DM to roll a saving throw behind the screen, and then saying the enemy or whatever is not affected, the player gets to roll a check, and if they happen to roll a natural 20, they know they have definitely succeeded.

My players are loving it.
MikeyP
08-15-07, 11:23 AM Well, it is a lot more fun for the players, instead of the player saying I cast charm person or what have you, and waiting for the DM to roll a saving throw behind the screen, and then saying the enemy or whatever is not affected, the player gets to roll a check, and if they happen to roll a natural 20, they know they have definitely succeeded.

My players are loving it.

Do you define the DC for them, or do you keep it hidden and just tell them if they've succeeded or not (which is what I do for ACs)?
Steely_Dan
08-15-07, 11:30 AM Do you define the DC for them, or do you keep it hidden and just tell them if they've succeeded or not (which is what I do for ACs)?

I do the same thing you and I do with AC.

Just like with the standard method I wouldn't announce what the enemy needs to roll to succeed on his Ref save etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
God of Slivers 08-06-07, 03:40 AM	I am considering using a houserule to determine spell dc instead of the usual method. The reason I am doing this is three-fold. One, this allows epic casters to have their DCs keep pace with saving throw progressions. Two, by using this houserule low level spells don't become useless and scale with level. Three, it allows casters to boost their DCs the same way other characters can boost their saves. And now for the houserule: Save DC = 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod Please let me know what you think.
BluEnigma 08-06-07, 04:01 AM	It's much easier to boost CL than it is to boost DCs. This will result in the overall raising of save DCs if you have any good optimizers in the party. If you think that's what's necessary for the game, go ahead, but personally I don't think Epic play is worth breaking the normal 1-20 any more than it already is.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-06-07, 06:06 PM	What Blu said is true, but you could simply rule that for the purpose of DCs your caster level can't exceed your class level.
runestar 08-06-07, 10:56 PM	I have never liked that a 1st lv charm person spell would be as hard to resist as a 9th lv wail of the banshee. I mean - the latter is supposed to be more powerful, all the more it should be tougher to save against. Monster saves at epic are problematic - I give you that, since they will quickly outstrip your save dcs, despite your best efforts at boosting them, forcing you to rely on spells which do not allow saves or at least have a respectable effect even on a save, or go shadowcraft mage (where a successful save nets even more penalties than a failed save). Two, by using this houserule low level spells don't become useless and scale with level. I would argue that they should be. Or you could use lower lv slots on utility spells or those which eschew saves. For example, no one bothers with magic missile at higher lvs, not when it could be converted to a shot of arcane fire. Another gripe I have with this is the spells' expected interaction with metamagic. Why would I bother with a cone of cold at 9th lv, when I could have an empowered fireball? The latter deals more damage, and both end up with the same save dc, since it is no longer spell lv dependent. Three, it allows casters to boost their DCs the same way other characters can boost their saves. You already do that by casting the highest lv spell you have, specifically targeting their weakest save, and combining this with debuffing spells such as limited wish and enervation. If we go by the 4-encounters/day assumption, then all the more the wiz should not be able to cast all his spells at his highest dc, IMO.
Steely_Dan 08-07-07, 06:16 AM	And now for the houserule: Save DC = 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod That is exactly what my group has adopted, and it's working out beautifully. We also use the saving throws as defences (magic checks) variant from UA – much more fun and proactive.
runestar 08-07-07, 09:54 AM	Or you could consider psionics.
Steely_Dan 08-08-07, 03:36 AM	Or you could consider psionics. We use both. We dabbled with spell points, but came to the conclusion that it doesn't quite jive, so now we have gone with a per encounter system for magic and psionics.
runestar 08-08-07, 06:52 AM	We dabbled with spell points, but came to the conclusion that it doesn't quite jive, so now we have gone with a per encounter system for magic and psionics. Just curious - what was your take on spell point system? :)
Steely_Dan 08-08-07, 07:00 AM	Just curious - what was your take on spell point system? :) It seemed all right at first, but me (the DM) and one of my players (the psion), realized that the antiquated Gygaxian spell system was never designed with a point system in mind as psionics is. So much of the auto-scaling of many spells became a problem compared to psionics. It just quite doesn't work; it's too much like shoe-horning in a concept meant for something else entirely. I would prefer a magic and psionic system that is neither slot nor point based.
pauln6 08-08-07, 10:18 AM	That is exactly what my group has adopted, and it's working out beautifully. We also use the saving throws as defences (magic checks) variant from UA – much more fun and proactive. Or you could try DC10 + 1/4 level + ability modifier or the standard DC, whichever is greater. It means at lower levels spell DCS stay the same and they only creep up gradually as the caster increases in level. That's what I'm using for Shadowcaster supernatural abilities it just tweaks the lower level spells slightly but without changing overall DCs too drastically.
pauln6 08-08-07, 10:27 AM	I suppose you could also add spell level to the DC. So a 1st level spell by a 20th level caster would be DC20+ while 9th level would be DC28+ Not horrendously game breaking I suppose.
ragoftag 08-08-07, 07:41 PM	One could also scale DCs as the character progresses. a friend uses something like that, but a level 1 spell doesn't get a + to the DC till level 7 or 9, and the second till level 15-ish (?).
God of Slivers 08-10-07, 03:53 AM	I'm really not seeing how abusable this is, could anyone provide an example? Keep in mind that your highest level spell DC will actually be lower on the level that you gain them (odd levels). I thought that this would be a pretty good balance to the rule. I really like this rule because it simplifies encounters a lot (creatures spell like abilities and supernatural abilities follow this as well).
Steely_Dan 08-10-07, 03:56 AM	I'm really not seeing how abusable this is, could anyone provide an example? Keep in mind that your highest level spell DC will actually be lower on the level that you gain them (odd levels). I thought that this would be a pretty good balance to the rule. I really like this rule because it simplifies encounters a lot (creatures spell like abilities and supernatural abilities follow this as well). My group has gone this route and it works out marvellously.
BilopTheFleshwarper 08-10-07, 09:52 AM	10 + 1/2 CL + stat mod it's perfect! but only for their highest level spells... oh say progressing into epic where the wizard has 15th level spellslots at 30th level and heightens his twinned energy adamixtured maximized burning hands. seriously, the best way to get higher DC's on low level spells is to not cast them as low level spells cast them as higher level spells. there is a reason my cleric has a heightened sanctuary racked at max level slot every day.
archerpwr 08-10-07, 10:41 AM	What Blu said is true, but you could simply rule that for the purpose of DCs your caster level can't exceed your class level. With that addition I think this would work wonderfully.
Seldriss 08-10-07, 11:16 AM	It should be harder to resist a high level spell than a low level one. It should be harder to resist a high level spellcaster than a low level one. Right ? So what about that : DC10 +Caster Level /2 + Spell Level ? No modifier from the ability, which gives more spells and spell points already anyway.
Steely_Dan 08-10-07, 11:19 AM	It should be harder to resist a high level spell than a low level one. It should be harder to resist a high level spellcaster than a low level one. Right ? So what about that : DC10 +Caster Level /2 + Spell Level ? No modifier from the ability, which gives more spells and spell points already anyway. Yeah, nice, I was thinking about that. Will talk with my group – thanks.
God of Slivers 08-10-07, 07:58 PM	It should be harder to resist a high level spell than a low level one. It should be harder to resist a high level spellcaster than a low level one. Right ? So what about that : DC10 +Caster Level /2 + Spell Level ? No modifier from the ability, which gives more spells and spell points already anyway. I actually think this makes spellcasters too powerful. With this method they no longer need to boost their casting stat. This will save them a lot of time and resources that can be put to other uses. To be honest I'm not very familiar with divine casters (don't really care for them and only one member ever plays one) so I don't know how breakable it is from that side, but on the arcane side I can't think of this being a problem.
Ertai Planeswalker 08-13-07, 11:52 AM	I actually think this makes spellcasters too powerful. With this method they no longer need to boost their casting stat. This will save them a lot of time and resources that can be put to other uses. To be honest I'm not very familiar with divine casters (don't really care for them and only one member ever plays one) so I don't know how breakable it is from that side, but on the arcane side I can't think of this being a problem. I agree, there should be some incentive for casters to increase their casting stat. While bonus spells are nice, you need a ridiculously high casting stat to get high level bonus spells. 10+1/2Casterlevel+ability modifier works wel. Even though this might make higher level spells just as easy to resist as lower level ones, lower level spells are still capped and as such, will not have an as powerfull effect as a high level one.
God of Slivers 08-13-07, 06:22 PM	I agree, there should be some incentive for casters to increase their casting stat. While bonus spells are nice, you need a ridiculously high casting stat to get high level bonus spells. 10+1/2Casterlevel+ability modifier works wel. Even though this might make higher level spells just as easy to resist as lower level ones, lower level spells are still capped and as such, will not have an as powerfull effect as a high level one. That was my thought. Plus, the added bonus of only having one DC you need to remember when dealing with a monster with 20+ spell like abilities is a real time saver. Plus, it should be mentioned that on the odd levels when new spells are acquired that the highest level spells will actually have a DC of one lower than the current system of 10 + spell level + ability mod.
TheDarkLord 08-13-07, 07:09 PM	I myself use 1d20 + 1/2 CL + Mod. But then again, I use a variant Vanacian system as well. I would, and I hope you do as well, don't let things that raise Caster Level Raise this check as well, things can, and will get out of hand in a hurry. A few feats and all would be ok, but to let Every, Single Thing that boosts CL, stack with this check would be very unbalancing.
God of Slivers 08-13-07, 09:58 PM	I myself use 1d20 + 1/2 CL + Mod. But then again, I use a variant Vanacian system as well. I would, and I hope you do as well, don't let things that raise Caster Level Raise this check as well, things can, and will get out of hand in a hurry. A few feats and all would be ok, but to let Every, Single Thing that boosts CL, stack with this check would be very unbalancing. Aside from a few feats and and a few odd magic items I'm unaware of anything that boosts CL by a significant amount. Were there any in particular you were referring to?
Steely_Dan 08-14-07, 04:49 AM	I agree, there should be some incentive for casters to increase their casting stat. Well, you would still need a 19 to cast 9th level spells.
MikeyP 08-14-07, 12:25 PM	That is exactly what my group has adopted, and it's working out beautifully. We also use the saving throws as defences (magic checks) variant from UA – much more fun and proactive. Hey Steely_Dan, I'm looking for that in UA and just can't seem to figure out which variant you mean here. Any chance you could tell me what page # that is? Thanks!
Ertai Planeswalker 08-14-07, 05:04 PM	Aside from a few feats and and a few odd magic items I'm unaware of anything that boosts CL by a significant amount. Were there any in particular you were referring to? Well it is possible if you dedicate a lot to it. My current PC is a Phoenix Themed Fireblaster Sorceress. Her feats are, among others, Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics and Fiery Burst. As such, i cast my fire based theme spells at +4 casterlevel. But then again, i spend 3 feats on it.
God of Slivers 08-14-07, 11:33 PM	Well it is possible if you dedicate a lot to it. My current PC is a Phoenix Themed Fireblaster Sorceress. Her feats are, among others, Bloodline of Fire, Spell Thematics and Fiery Burst. As such, i cast my fire based theme spells at +4 casterlevel. But then again, i spend 3 feats on it. If you want to spend three feats to get an effective +2 DC on your themed fire spells only I have absolutely zero problem with that. Now as I said my knowledge of divine casters is a little weak, so maybe it's easily abusable their, but to my knowledge there isn't a whole lot to break it on the arcane side.
Steely_Dan 08-15-07, 06:49 AM	Hey Steely_Dan, I'm looking for that in UA and just can't seem to figure out which variant you mean here. Any chance you could tell me what page # that is? Thanks! Hey, MikeyP - check it out: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAn dSaveScores
MikeyP 08-15-07, 11:03 AM	Hey, MikeyP - check it out: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAn dSaveScores Ah, okay, I didn't realize that it was part of the "Players roll all the dice" variant, thanks. So, could you by any chance give some more feedback about how it's been going in your games? Problems? Benefits?
Steely_Dan 08-15-07, 11:13 AM	Ah, okay, I didn't realize that it was part of the "Players roll all the dice" variant, thanks. So, could you by any chance give some more feedback about how it's been going in your games? Problems? Benefits? Well, it is a lot more fun for the players, instead of the player saying I cast charm person or what have you, and waiting for the DM to roll a saving throw behind the screen, and then saying the enemy or whatever is not affected, the player gets to roll a check, and if they happen to roll a natural 20, they know they have definitely succeeded. My players are loving it.
MikeyP 08-15-07, 11:23 AM	Well, it is a lot more fun for the players, instead of the player saying I cast charm person or what have you, and waiting for the DM to roll a saving throw behind the screen, and then saying the enemy or whatever is not affected, the player gets to roll a check, and if they happen to roll a natural 20, they know they have definitely succeeded. My players are loving it. Do you define the DC for them, or do you keep it hidden and just tell them if they've succeeded or not (which is what I do for ACs)?
Steely_Dan 08-15-07, 11:30 AM	Do you define the DC for them, or do you keep it hidden and just tell them if they've succeeded or not (which is what I do for ACs)? I do the same thing you and I do with AC. Just like with the standard method I wouldn't announce what the enemy needs to roll to succeed on his Ref save etc.