Spell fatigue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell fatigue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
starfire311
11-03-06, 10:29 PM not sure how I want to go about this, If anyone has seen a similar system or has suggestions feel free to add.

Basically, it is a system to allow all day casting.

You still memorize spells each day as a wizard, but you basically do this to create a list of spells know that you can cast from.

it can go something like this, each time you cast a spell you generate spell fatigue equal to the spell level.

To succeed on casting a spell you must make a caster level check equal with a DC equal to the amount of spell fatigue you have.

If you fail to cast a spell, you do not gain any fatigue, but you take non-lethal damage equal to the amount of fatigue you have.

Each round you can spend a move action to remove 1 fatigue, a standard action to remove 2 fatigue, and full round action to remove 3 fatigue.

none of this is set inn stone, just wanted to bounce some ideas around.

Ideas for spontaneaous caster could be they get some kind of ability to reduce the fatigue they gain.
konad
11-03-06, 11:12 PM check the dragon lance campaign setting its magic system is built on fatigue.
trapspringer
11-04-06, 03:51 AM I like the concept, but your method seems a bit complicated. Why not just have the player take some set amount of damage for casting spells of a certain level and give them a few more HP a level?

Bump wizards and sorcerers to d6s and have spells deal something like 0/1/1/2/3/5/8/13/21 subdual damage for each level respectively. You could give sorcerers bonus hit points at various levels to represent their bolstered spells per day.

Now if there was some way to make something this simple balance a little better....
DIESCUMDIE
11-04-06, 04:45 AM Why not just say casters can only cast every 2 rounds or 1d4 whatever rounds. Although the most problematic spells are cast out of combat.
starfire311
11-04-06, 09:16 AM I like the concept, but your method seems a bit complicated. Why not just have the player take some set amount of damage for casting spells of a certain level and give them a few more HP a level?

Bump wizards and sorcerers to d6s and have spells deal something like 0/1/1/2/3/5/8/13/21 subdual damage for each level respectively. You could give sorcerers bonus hit points at various levels to represent their bolstered spells per day.

Now if there was some way to make something this simple balance a little better....

it is a tad complicated, and you have a decent simplification, I just wanted there to be a way to avoid the non-lethal damage, and have a way to slow casters from just casting their highest level spell each round, hence the increasingly more difficult caster level check to cast spells.

But, obviously your idea isnt without merits.

Why not just say casters can only cast every 2 rounds or 1d4 whatever rounds. Although the most problematic spells are cast out of combat.

That isnt necessarily what I wanted, I wanted casters to be able to start battles off going all out for the 1st few rounds if they wanted to, but they will feel the effects of ever increasing fatigue if they do.
bl1nk
11-17-06, 04:00 PM in my game, I use spell points with vitalizing to replicate spell fatigue (as described in UA (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedSpellPoints.html)) though, as written, it's only optimal for pure arcane casters (ie. wizards, sorcerors) and hybrid melee\casters (ie. rangers, bards) get kind of tooled on by automatic fatigue.

so, my house rule is -- casters get x number of spell points per day. when they dip below a certain threshold of their total (for prepared casters it's 1/2 of daily max, for spontaneous, it's 1/3 of daily max), they have to make a FORT save every time they cast (DC 10 + number of points below the threshold) or become fatigued.

So, 6th level cleric w/ 18 CON has 33 spell points per day. If their total drops to 13 spell points, they have to make a DC 13 FORT save. If it drops to 9, they have to make a DC 16 FORT save, etc. 6th level favored soul w/ 18 CON has 39 spell points per day. If total drops to 13, they don't have to make a fort save. If it drops to 9, their FORT save is a DC 13.

If it drops to 0, they're automatically exhausted.

If fatigued, you can rest for one hour (or get a lesser restoration) to get up 2/3 of your daily max of spell points. If exhausted, one hour of rest gets you up to 1/3 of your daily max and makes you fatigued. A second hour brings you up to 2/3 of max, and gets rid of fatigued. 8 hours of rest gets your full total back.

With this variant, melee casters like paladins don't suffer too badly from inadvertent fatigue because they usually have good FORT saves (assassins, bards and arcane tricksters still have to suck it, though) and you still have a decent check against abusive high level casting within each individual session (since even lesser restoration requires 3 round of casting, using it in combat is a pretty sketchy proposition at best).
bl1nk
11-17-06, 04:53 PM Why not just have the player take some set amount of damage for casting spells of a certain level and give them a few more HP a level?

because then the system can be broken by clerics casting mass cure wounds. Even a maximized mass cure light wounds can easily translate to low/no-cost spellcasting by this system. Expanding it to the Complete Divine spell list, all you need to do is cast vigor or greater vigor (which grant some form of fast healing) to get free or reduced spellcasting for the encounter. Making it some condition that requires some form of restoration (ie. fractional CON penalties, fatigued condition, etc.) or even perhaps saying that spell subdual damage requires restoration to be healed should limit abuse of this.
Otto the Bugbear
11-17-06, 05:44 PM This looks a lot like spellpoints lite, with a recovery mechanic involved.

It'll basically ensure that the biggest guns get used to start every combat encounter, long lasting buffs are spread around like beating with the stupid stick, and the lower level spells become utility only.

Cheers

Otto :)
bl1nk
11-17-06, 08:59 PM This looks a lot like spellpoints lite, with a recovery mechanic involved.

It'll basically ensure that the biggest guns get used to start every combat encounter, long lasting buffs are spread around like beating with the stupid stick, and the lower level spells become utility only.

yeah, sorry, I neglect to mention that I also attach additional save penalties to each condition (fatigued drops your class save bonus by half across the board; exhausted reduces your class save bonus to 0) to make it more dire. As they're written, fatigued is a relatively trivial condition for a back-line caster (ooh, -2 Str and Dex, scary); whereas in the real world, being exhausted has a negative impact on your reflexes, endurance and morale\willpower.

but, honestly, in my campaign, I haven't seen players get too uber with their spellcasting per encounter. Since they're concerned about avoiding fatigue when they can, they'll use lower level spells when its sensible (ie. opting for less costly scorching rays or magic missiles versus single opponents who do not need to be hit with a lightning bolt)

in most cases, once you're below 2/3 max, (the most that you can ever regain without resting) you can only cast two or three of your max level spells in any encounter before you start tempting the chance for fatigue. So, why not also lean on those lower-level and less expensive spells if that means a lower drain on your casting resources?

yes, there is a lot of buffing and a lot of curing between encounters, but that's not much different from the previous case when, under Vancian rules, if the party wants a bull's strength or prayer they'd just retreat to a safe point and rest to replenish resources.

there are still plenty of occasions to make life hard for one's players even with all of the buffs and rapid replenishment of spell points. Ray of exhaustion (as an example) takes on whole new levels of nastiness, as does waves of fatigue.
User5127
11-17-06, 10:49 PM DragonLance has this variant. basically a caster has to make a fort save after casting a spell or become fatigued on failure, then exausted, then uncounsious.

the dc for the fort save would be 10 + spell level.
trapspringer
11-18-06, 12:38 AM because then the system can be broken by clerics casting mass cure wounds. Even a maximized mass cure light wounds can easily translate to low/no-cost spellcasting by this system. Expanding it to the Complete Divine spell list, all you need to do is cast vigor or greater vigor (which grant some form of fast healing) to get free or reduced spellcasting for the encounter. Making it some condition that requires some form of restoration (ie. fractional CON penalties, fatigued condition, etc.) or even perhaps saying that spell subdual damage requires restoration to be healed should limit abuse of this.

Good call. I did not think about that.

You could instead say the caster in question instead suffers a penalty to HP until the end of the encounter.
Leress
11-18-06, 08:48 AM DragonLance has this variant. basically a caster has to make a fort save after casting a spell or become fatigued on failure, then exausted, then uncounsious.

the dc for the fort save would be 10 + spell level.

The Slayers d20 has a very similar system to that.
User5127
11-18-06, 04:29 PM its a good system to balance mages more and for use in a lower magic campaign setting...

(i'm not fond of it on the basis that i love mages and hate making fort saves lol)
The_Levitator
11-21-06, 11:49 PM We run a rare-magic campaign, and we've been experimenting with a very simple idea. Basically, spells/prayers cost 1 HP non-lethal per spell level. Because we use a non-spontaneous healing system, it seems to balance out ok. The non-spontaneous healing system is something I came up with to discourage front line, potion-chugging fighters, to eliminate the video game invincibility feel.

Here's the way healing works in our world:

• Healing is NOT instantaneous. The rate of recovery depends on the level of the healer. This makes healing more miraculous and keeps combat dangerous as you can’t just pop healing potions and be “invincible” during combat. In addition, the cost to have potions and magical items created by clerics will have the same recovery rate as the cleric who created it. It costs much more to have a healing potion created by a 10th level cleric than it does a first. You gain the 1st HP(or 2 with a lvl. 5 potion or prayer) immediately.

Cleric Level Recovery Rate Item Cost Mult.
1-4 1 HP/8 rds. Standard
5-8 1 HP/4 rds. X2
9-12 1 HP/2 rds. X3
13-16 1 HP/rd. X4
17-20 2 HP/rd X5

By slowing the healing rate down a little, it makes it a less viable in-combat option while still healing at a miraculous rate. 4 minutes to heal 10 HP by a 5th level cleric is still pretty miraculous, but much less videogamish for our groups taste.

Would having this type of non-spontaneous healing be enough to balance a simple system of 1 hp subdual per spell level?
Andion Isurand
11-22-06, 12:54 AM Fatigue huh? ...well, I suppose that makes lichdom much more important. I don't think this path needs anymore reinforcement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
starfire311 11-03-06, 10:29 PM	not sure how I want to go about this, If anyone has seen a similar system or has suggestions feel free to add. Basically, it is a system to allow all day casting. You still memorize spells each day as a wizard, but you basically do this to create a list of spells know that you can cast from. it can go something like this, each time you cast a spell you generate spell fatigue equal to the spell level. To succeed on casting a spell you must make a caster level check equal with a DC equal to the amount of spell fatigue you have. If you fail to cast a spell, you do not gain any fatigue, but you take non-lethal damage equal to the amount of fatigue you have. Each round you can spend a move action to remove 1 fatigue, a standard action to remove 2 fatigue, and full round action to remove 3 fatigue. none of this is set inn stone, just wanted to bounce some ideas around. Ideas for spontaneaous caster could be they get some kind of ability to reduce the fatigue they gain.
konad 11-03-06, 11:12 PM	check the dragon lance campaign setting its magic system is built on fatigue.
trapspringer 11-04-06, 03:51 AM	I like the concept, but your method seems a bit complicated. Why not just have the player take some set amount of damage for casting spells of a certain level and give them a few more HP a level? Bump wizards and sorcerers to d6s and have spells deal something like 0/1/1/2/3/5/8/13/21 subdual damage for each level respectively. You could give sorcerers bonus hit points at various levels to represent their bolstered spells per day. Now if there was some way to make something this simple balance a little better....
DIESCUMDIE 11-04-06, 04:45 AM	Why not just say casters can only cast every 2 rounds or 1d4 whatever rounds. Although the most problematic spells are cast out of combat.
starfire311 11-04-06, 09:16 AM	I like the concept, but your method seems a bit complicated. Why not just have the player take some set amount of damage for casting spells of a certain level and give them a few more HP a level? Bump wizards and sorcerers to d6s and have spells deal something like 0/1/1/2/3/5/8/13/21 subdual damage for each level respectively. You could give sorcerers bonus hit points at various levels to represent their bolstered spells per day. Now if there was some way to make something this simple balance a little better.... it is a tad complicated, and you have a decent simplification, I just wanted there to be a way to avoid the non-lethal damage, and have a way to slow casters from just casting their highest level spell each round, hence the increasingly more difficult caster level check to cast spells. But, obviously your idea isnt without merits. Why not just say casters can only cast every 2 rounds or 1d4 whatever rounds. Although the most problematic spells are cast out of combat. That isnt necessarily what I wanted, I wanted casters to be able to start battles off going all out for the 1st few rounds if they wanted to, but they will feel the effects of ever increasing fatigue if they do.
bl1nk 11-17-06, 04:00 PM	in my game, I use spell points with vitalizing to replicate spell fatigue (as described in UA (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedSpellPoints.html)) though, as written, it's only optimal for pure arcane casters (ie. wizards, sorcerors) and hybrid melee\casters (ie. rangers, bards) get kind of tooled on by automatic fatigue. so, my house rule is -- casters get x number of spell points per day. when they dip below a certain threshold of their total (for prepared casters it's 1/2 of daily max, for spontaneous, it's 1/3 of daily max), they have to make a FORT save every time they cast (DC 10 + number of points below the threshold) or become fatigued. So, 6th level cleric w/ 18 CON has 33 spell points per day. If their total drops to 13 spell points, they have to make a DC 13 FORT save. If it drops to 9, they have to make a DC 16 FORT save, etc. 6th level favored soul w/ 18 CON has 39 spell points per day. If total drops to 13, they don't have to make a fort save. If it drops to 9, their FORT save is a DC 13. If it drops to 0, they're automatically exhausted. If fatigued, you can rest for one hour (or get a lesser restoration) to get up 2/3 of your daily max of spell points. If exhausted, one hour of rest gets you up to 1/3 of your daily max and makes you fatigued. A second hour brings you up to 2/3 of max, and gets rid of fatigued. 8 hours of rest gets your full total back. With this variant, melee casters like paladins don't suffer too badly from inadvertent fatigue because they usually have good FORT saves (assassins, bards and arcane tricksters still have to suck it, though) and you still have a decent check against abusive high level casting within each individual session (since even lesser restoration requires 3 round of casting, using it in combat is a pretty sketchy proposition at best).
bl1nk 11-17-06, 04:53 PM	Why not just have the player take some set amount of damage for casting spells of a certain level and give them a few more HP a level? because then the system can be broken by clerics casting mass cure wounds. Even a maximized mass cure light wounds can easily translate to low/no-cost spellcasting by this system. Expanding it to the Complete Divine spell list, all you need to do is cast vigor or greater vigor (which grant some form of fast healing) to get free or reduced spellcasting for the encounter. Making it some condition that requires some form of restoration (ie. fractional CON penalties, fatigued condition, etc.) or even perhaps saying that spell subdual damage requires restoration to be healed should limit abuse of this.
Otto the Bugbear 11-17-06, 05:44 PM	This looks a lot like spellpoints lite, with a recovery mechanic involved. It'll basically ensure that the biggest guns get used to start every combat encounter, long lasting buffs are spread around like beating with the stupid stick, and the lower level spells become utility only. Cheers Otto :)
bl1nk 11-17-06, 08:59 PM	This looks a lot like spellpoints lite, with a recovery mechanic involved. It'll basically ensure that the biggest guns get used to start every combat encounter, long lasting buffs are spread around like beating with the stupid stick, and the lower level spells become utility only. yeah, sorry, I neglect to mention that I also attach additional save penalties to each condition (fatigued drops your class save bonus by half across the board; exhausted reduces your class save bonus to 0) to make it more dire. As they're written, fatigued is a relatively trivial condition for a back-line caster (ooh, -2 Str and Dex, scary); whereas in the real world, being exhausted has a negative impact on your reflexes, endurance and morale\willpower. but, honestly, in my campaign, I haven't seen players get too uber with their spellcasting per encounter. Since they're concerned about avoiding fatigue when they can, they'll use lower level spells when its sensible (ie. opting for less costly scorching rays or magic missiles versus single opponents who do not need to be hit with a lightning bolt) in most cases, once you're below 2/3 max, (the most that you can ever regain without resting) you can only cast two or three of your max level spells in any encounter before you start tempting the chance for fatigue. So, why not also lean on those lower-level and less expensive spells if that means a lower drain on your casting resources? yes, there is a lot of buffing and a lot of curing between encounters, but that's not much different from the previous case when, under Vancian rules, if the party wants a bull's strength or prayer they'd just retreat to a safe point and rest to replenish resources. there are still plenty of occasions to make life hard for one's players even with all of the buffs and rapid replenishment of spell points. Ray of exhaustion (as an example) takes on whole new levels of nastiness, as does waves of fatigue.
User5127 11-17-06, 10:49 PM	DragonLance has this variant. basically a caster has to make a fort save after casting a spell or become fatigued on failure, then exausted, then uncounsious. the dc for the fort save would be 10 + spell level.
trapspringer 11-18-06, 12:38 AM	because then the system can be broken by clerics casting mass cure wounds. Even a maximized mass cure light wounds can easily translate to low/no-cost spellcasting by this system. Expanding it to the Complete Divine spell list, all you need to do is cast vigor or greater vigor (which grant some form of fast healing) to get free or reduced spellcasting for the encounter. Making it some condition that requires some form of restoration (ie. fractional CON penalties, fatigued condition, etc.) or even perhaps saying that spell subdual damage requires restoration to be healed should limit abuse of this. Good call. I did not think about that. You could instead say the caster in question instead suffers a penalty to HP until the end of the encounter.
Leress 11-18-06, 08:48 AM	DragonLance has this variant. basically a caster has to make a fort save after casting a spell or become fatigued on failure, then exausted, then uncounsious. the dc for the fort save would be 10 + spell level. The Slayers d20 has a very similar system to that.
User5127 11-18-06, 04:29 PM	its a good system to balance mages more and for use in a lower magic campaign setting... (i'm not fond of it on the basis that i love mages and hate making fort saves lol)
The_Levitator 11-21-06, 11:49 PM	We run a rare-magic campaign, and we've been experimenting with a very simple idea. Basically, spells/prayers cost 1 HP non-lethal per spell level. Because we use a non-spontaneous healing system, it seems to balance out ok. The non-spontaneous healing system is something I came up with to discourage front line, potion-chugging fighters, to eliminate the video game invincibility feel. Here's the way healing works in our world: • Healing is NOT instantaneous. The rate of recovery depends on the level of the healer. This makes healing more miraculous and keeps combat dangerous as you can’t just pop healing potions and be “invincible” during combat. In addition, the cost to have potions and magical items created by clerics will have the same recovery rate as the cleric who created it. It costs much more to have a healing potion created by a 10th level cleric than it does a first. You gain the 1st HP(or 2 with a lvl. 5 potion or prayer) immediately. Cleric Level Recovery Rate Item Cost Mult. 1-4 1 HP/8 rds. Standard 5-8 1 HP/4 rds. X2 9-12 1 HP/2 rds. X3 13-16 1 HP/rd. X4 17-20 2 HP/rd X5 By slowing the healing rate down a little, it makes it a less viable in-combat option while still healing at a miraculous rate. 4 minutes to heal 10 HP by a 5th level cleric is still pretty miraculous, but much less videogamish for our groups taste. Would having this type of non-spontaneous healing be enough to balance a simple system of 1 hp subdual per spell level?
Andion Isurand 11-22-06, 12:54 AM	Fatigue huh? ...well, I suppose that makes lichdom much more important. I don't think this path needs anymore reinforcement.