Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tywyll 03-22-04, 03:13 PM	For the record, I hate, and have always hated, Vancian magic. It just seems silly to me. The idea of spells as rituals that require only one or two 'trigger phrases' to be said at a later time (i.e. preparing spells ala 3.x) is more palatable, but still leaves me a bit cold. I love the idea of spell points. I've always preferred systems where casters maintained control of their abilities. With prepared slots, all it takes is a couple of fights with monsters resistant to your prepped spells to make a caster nearly worthless. Meanwhile, the fighters and rogues just keep decimating opponents all day long. So, I've instituted spell points. Now, as we've played, I've noticed some issues with the system, namely that Cure spells need to be tweaked. Here's why: In a spell point system, a spell that costs more, should always be better. In damage spells, this tends to be the case. With cure spells however, this doesn't follow through. We have a party of 6th level characters and there is a 5th level cleric in the group. She's realized that other than in the middle of combat, there is no reason for her to ever cast anything more than clw. This is kind of the problem I have with CLW Wands versus Higher Level cure spell wands, but that is another thread. Anyway, in the SP system, at her level she can spend 1 sp for 1d8+5 healing, or she can spend 3 for 2d8+5, or 5 for 3d8+5. Now, granted, when she gets higher level, this will change, but look at the max: 1 sp=1d8+5 (13) 3 sp=2d8+10 (26) 5 sp=3d8+15 (39) 7 sp=4d8 +20 (52) Again, we acknowledge that casting the higher level spells, once they max out, in combat is better. However, the rest of the time, the 1 sp spell is just superior. Between every fight, its possible to fully reset HP (though, I'll grant you for 750 gp the same can be done with a clw wand). Anyone have any idea on how to fix this? I was thinking maybe not let the cure spells get better with level and change their set amounts: 1 sp= 1d8+1 (avg 6, 9) 3 sp= 2d8+6 (avg 15, 22) 5 sp= 3d8+11 (avg 25, 35) 7 sp= 4d8+16 (avg 34, 48) Or maybe change the dice all together? 1 sp= d10 (avg 6, 10) 3 sp= 2d10+6 (avg 18, 26) 5 sp= 3d10+18 (avg 36, 48) 7 sp= 4d10+24 (avg 48, 64) I'm just pulling numbers out of thin air. Does anyone have any suggestions? I would like to make spending more points on cure spells be actually worth doing so, instead of seeing a 20th level cleric having the potential to pump out 300 clw spells.
Lina_Inverse 03-22-04, 04:44 PM	why dont to note the other issues. 1.damage spells get even worse as save or dies DONT have to pay more to scale 2.prep casters get stronger. i have no problem with high level spells being less effcient if your really worried why not make it so cure spells just cost lvl not includeing heal/mass heal(theres a bargain) but includeing maybe healing circle
Tywyll 03-22-04, 05:05 PM	why dont to note the other issues. What does this mean? 1.damage spells get even worse as save or dies DONT have to pay more to scale 2.prep casters get stronger. While I agree with number 1, number 2 is an assertion with no supporting evidence or even a frame of reference. What are you going on about? Besides, neither of these two "issues" has anything to do with this thread. i have no problem with high level spells being less effcient if your really worried why not make it so cure spells just cost lvl not includeing heal/mass heal(theres a bargain) but includeing maybe healing circle It doesn't bother you that higher level spells are inefficient. That's fine, it does bother me and I think its a design perameter that most scaled spell systems are built around: more powerful spells should cost more, be it a higher level slot or more points. As the system works now, that isn't the case. This thread is about handling the healing issues, not fixing all aspects of the system. And I don't know what you mean by "make it so cure spells just cost level". There might be a good piece of advice in there, but I don't know what you are suggesting.
Lina_Inverse 03-22-04, 05:09 PM	make it so CLW costs 1 point CMW costs 2 points CSW costs 3 points CCW costs 4 points Healing cicle costs 5 points tada! fixed. oh and it does make prep casters stronger as they now have editable spells known o.O
Ricardo Martinez Garza 03-23-04, 02:57 AM	I think the answer is quite simple. Eliminate the +5 for cure light wounds (so it only cures 1d8) and you will find that all cure wounds balance nicely in this SP System.
strenoth 03-23-04, 03:20 AM	funny note... in most point-spending computer RPGs, you wind up with the same issue. in battle, use the big spells. out of battl,e burn up the little ones. :)
Tigald 03-23-04, 10:54 AM	I don't know if this is a good idea or not. But try to handle it like this: All cure spells IN COMBAT remain the same. When not in combat and not in any situation of stress, you can concetrate more on your healing. So the following changes apply: CLW:1D8+CL(Max5) CMW:2D8+CL(Max10) + an additional 1D4+1/2 CL(Max5) CSW:3D8+CL(Max15) + an additional 2D4+1/2 CL(Max 10) CCW:4D8+CL(max 20) + an additional 3D4+1/2 CL(Max 20) I of course haven't tested it, and it also streghts healing spells a lot. Maybe reducing the Healing Die to D6. But that would reduce the effectivity in combat. It's just an idea!!! Tigald
Tywyll 03-23-04, 06:07 PM	Originally posted by Ricardo Martinez Garza I think the answer is quite simple. Eliminate the +5 for cure light wounds (so it only cures 1d8) and you will find that all cure wounds balance nicely in this SP System. So do you mean that CLW would only do d8, but the other levels of spells would do their normal amounts? That still ends up with the problem that Cure Serious is not worth the extra points over cure moderate. I suppose that if we were to base it purely on the points spent, and try to make the spell balance against each other, you might try: CLW=1d8 CMW=3d8 CSW=5d8 CCW=7d8 This is an exact point to dice equivalent. Of course the problem with that is that the higher level spells still aren't /better/ because you could roll a bunch of ones. That's why, I think, they added the level bonus so that the spells always provided some benefit. The problem as I see it is that for the spells to make sense, in the point system, CMW has to be 3 times as effective as CLW, possibly more. CSW must be 5 or more times, and CCW must be 7 times as effective. Clw=1d6+2 (avg 6, 8) CMW=2d10+10 (avg 20, 30) CSW=4d6+16 (avg 30, 40) CCW=4d10+24 Or CLW=1d6 +1xCon BONUS (of recipient) CMW=3d6 +2xCon BONUS (of recipient) CSW=5d6+3xCon BONUS (of recipient) CCW=7d6+4xCon BONUS (of recipient) I'm still thinking outloud here, so any suggestions are welcome.
Ricardo Martinez Garza 03-23-04, 09:56 PM	Originally posted by Tywyll So do you mean that CLW would only do d8, but the other levels of spells would do their normal amounts? yes That still ends up with the problem that Cure Serious is not worth the extra points over cure moderate. How about this: 1 sp=1d8 (8) 3 sp=2d8+5 (21) 5 sp=3d8+10 (34) 7 sp=4d8 +20 (52) This way you don't modify that much the system and higher level spells are better (since you have a better minimum amount of healed hit points).
tantra23 03-23-04, 10:29 PM	I think the problem here is that the cure series is one of the few spell series that has a clear numerical progression but has been broken up into different spells. In a spell point system that was created from the ground up as such, these spells would be one spell that had variable effects depending on how many points you dumped into it. So I think the solution is to treat cure like fireball is treated in UA. Since cure critical wounds cures 4d8 + CL, the variable damage averages 18. If we want the variable component for a 7th level cleric to also average 18, but want a smooth progression from level 1 to 7, the spell should cure d4/CL (avg=17.5) + CL (max 20, but see below). This makes it somewhat weaker at 1st level for the sake of consistency. The other thing this brings up is that in a well-thought out spell point system, you're always paying for the power you use, so the rationale for capping spell benefits go away. 1E did not cap magic missle or fireball. The 5 missile and 10d6 caps were added in 2E so that the spells did not scale ridiculously. But since the UA spell point system requires you to spend 10 sp for a 10d6 fireball, I can't see any good reason to not let a higher level caster spend 15 sp to cast a 15d6 fireball. Same rationale applies to cure wounds.
Tywyll 03-23-04, 11:44 PM	Not a bad idea tantra. I'll give it a thunk. What you said about the spell capping not being necessary... that is a great point. There is one issue with it... after fireball/lightning bolt, why have higher level damage dice spells at all? There would need to be an effect for each element at level 3 (or perhaps consider acid/cold harder to resist, so they start at level 4) but ... then what? What do we do to fill out the wizard's repitoire?
Kainy 03-24-04, 01:02 AM	You can spend 15 SP to cast a 15d6 fireball... it's called firebrand and it has a much better area (1 5 ft. burst per caster level, and I think long range) You can take care of a huge number of isolated targets, dealing each a tidy 15d6 of fire damage. Though it would be interesting to just have spells like fire, acid, lightning, etc, and then have a minimum SP requirement for various ranges/areas. Like a single target 1d6/level could be first level, 20 foot burst (that's what fireball is, right?) third, etc. etc. Tough to balance, though.
Lina_Inverse 03-24-04, 01:10 AM	Originally posted by Tywyll Not a bad idea tantra. I'll give it a thunk. What you said about the spell capping not being necessary... that is a great point. There is one issue with it... after fireball/lightning bolt, why have higher level damage dice spells at all? There would need to be an effect for each element at level 3 (or perhaps consider acid/cold harder to resist, so they start at level 4) but ... then what? What do we do to fill out the wizard's repitoire? beyond save DCS...none.:ayyyy!: intresting though if you added autoscaleing DCs would be a very fun varient,you could prolly condense.....75% of the spells into a few spells.hmmmmmm i need to think about this,i think i found a new project to waste my time:schemes: you know from what ive heard thats what the new psi stuff is gonna be
tantra23 03-25-04, 04:36 PM	Originally posted by Tywyll There is one issue with it... after fireball/lightning bolt, why have higher level damage dice spells at all? There would need to be an effect for each element at level 3 (or perhaps consider acid/cold harder to resist, so they start at level 4) but ... then what? What do we do to fill out the wizard's repitoire? Good question. Not really sure that I know the answer. It seems that D&D has usually tried to justify the higher-level spells by adding additional features, for example delayed blast fireball or chain lightning. Those would still be useful because of those additional features. Some redundancy could be eliminated. It never made much sense to me that summon monster was split into 9 different spells. This was purely a requirement of the Vancian magic system (seen that word thrown around--reference?), when in a spell point system these could all be one spell which summoned more powerful monsters if you pumped more points into it. I guess the question is, if the caster could still produce the same effects roughly the same number of times per day, does it matter that the caster knows "fewer" spells? Shouldn't someone who knows invisibility also be able to cast greater invisibility when s/he gets to a high enough level? Not really committed to this idea, and it would definitely take some planning to implement, just putting it out there for you to think about. Kainy, can't find firebrand. What book is it in?
Cathon 03-25-04, 05:33 PM	Vancian comes from Jack Vance, author, who apparently had a spell system in some of his stories that Gygax and Co lifted pretty much verbatim. I'm honestly not sure what the problem actually is. That PCs will be able to heal more efficiently in their downtime? The extra instantaneous healing will still make it worthwhile during combat to use higher level healing spells, and the party will be fully healed by the time to the next encounter comes along because of cure light spells. I don't think the fact that higher level cures (besides heal) won't be used outside of combat really threatens anything. Are you worried that clerics are now more powerful because they will have more spell points to use during encounters? It just means the party will buy fewer cure light wands to me. (My druid has gone through about 4 as the sole divine magic user in the party) Honestly, that probably means the cleric will have fewer spell points because he will be able to heal from his spell points rather than using a wand all the time. If you really feel a need to tweak them you can make them max out faster, + 1.5/ CL or something. But recognize that the spells also deal damage to undead, so you want to balance that factor with similar damage spells of that level.
Tywyll 03-25-04, 05:57 PM	I'm honestly not sure what the problem actually is. The problem is one of internal consistency. A design parameter of point based systems is you get what you pay for. Look at damage spells... they start with X and the more points you put in the more damage they do. Whether the current system makes that worthwhile is debateable, but you get the idea. So, if those spells are supposed to be worth more (hence you spend more points) then it bothers me that they aren't, actually, worth more. Now, in one game I'm running, we are using Wounds/Vitality, so they do work (the dice you roll heal vitality, while the constant number heals wounds... which, oddly enough, the Orison cure spell is more powerful now that it heals wounds instead of 'hp'). But in the other game, where more standard rules apply, it doesn't work. Obviously, its not a problem for you. That's cool. It is for me. I /want/ this system to work, and therefore it needs to be internally consistant. That does mean throwing out some of the 'ole standbys' of DnD... well so be it. I actually like this discussion of tossing individual spells and sticking with effects. I think it has a lot of promise... I just don't know how much work it would require.
kzin 03-25-04, 07:44 PM	While dropping the bonuses is one way to do it, another way to it is to charge for level advancements. What I mean is this: The spell point cost of a spell is equal to the caster level at which you cast it. THe minimum cost = the cost on the chart, the maximum cost = your caster level. The cost you pick becomes the effective caster level of the spell. If you want to cast CLW with a +5, then you need to pay 5 spell points for it. If you want CCW with a +20, that's going to cost you 20 spell points. This works for offensive spells as well.
schulerta 03-25-04, 11:48 PM	Why pay 5 points for 1d8+5 when you can cast a 1 point CLW five times for a total of 5d8+5? Why pay 20 points for a 4d8+20 when you can cast twenty 1 point CLW for a total of 20d8+20? The system is broken. Granted that doesn't necessarily happen in combat, but outside of combat your cleric has virtually unlimited healing. Make cure light wounds 1d8 and make it an osiron. It can only be cast 5 times per day. Dump Cure minor wounds completely. Also change the others: CMW (2nd level still) 2d8+ caster level with a max bonus of +5. CSW (3rd level still) 3d8+ caster level with a max bonus of +10. CCW (4th level still) 4d8+ caster level with a max bonus of +20 I haven't thought enough about the mass versions as to whether or not they would need to be changed. A high level cleric will have plenty of healing power. At lower levels the cleric can cast 5 CLW per day, still retaining his healing power. The main reason to move CLW down is to prevent the abuse that would be inherent. For instance, assuming a 20th level cleric: Why pay 7 points for 4d8+20 when you could use CLW 7 times for a total of 7d8+35? Again in battle that isn't practical, but from the combat I have been involved in healing doesn't happen all the time. Most of the healing I see is in between battle. The more I think about it though, healing spells really have the potential to throw a game using spell points out of whack. In favor of the players. What do you guys think about the Vitalizing variant? The spell Lesser Restoration would enable casters to have virtaully unlimited pools. A 3 point spell at higher levels would quickly become abused. I like the concept, it is just too open to abuse. Troy
mellowship 03-26-04, 08:43 PM	Originally posted by Tywyll I love the idea of spell points. I've always preferred systems where casters maintained control of their abilities. With prepared slots, all it takes is a couple of fights with monsters resistant to your prepped spells to make a caster nearly worthless. Meanwhile, the fighters and rogues just keep decimating opponents all day long. So, I've instituted spell points. Now, as we've played, I've noticed some issues with the system, namely that Cure spells need to be tweaked. Here's why: In a spell point system, a spell that costs more, should always be better. In damage spells, this tends to be the case. With cure spells however, this doesn't follow through. We have a party of 6th level characters and there is a 5th level cleric in the group. She's realized that other than in the middle of combat, there is no reason for her to ever cast anything more than clw. This is kind of the problem I have with CLW Wands versus Higher Level cure spell wands, but that is another thread. Anyway, in the SP system, at her level she can spend 1 sp for 1d8+5 healing, or she can spend 3 for 2d8+5, or 5 for 3d8+5. Now, granted, when she gets higher level, this will change, but look at the max: 1 sp=1d8+5 (13) 3 sp=2d8+10 (26) 5 sp=3d8+15 (39) 7 sp=4d8 +20 (52) Again, we acknowledge that casting the higher level spells, once they max out, in combat is better. However, the rest of the time, the 1 sp spell is just superior. Between every fight, its possible to fully reset HP (though, I'll grant you for 750 gp the same can be done with a clw wand). Anyone have any idea on how to fix this? I was thinking maybe not let the cure spells get better with level and change their set amounts: 1 sp= 1d8+1 (avg 6, 9) 3 sp= 2d8+6 (avg 15, 22) 5 sp= 3d8+11 (avg 25, 35) 7 sp= 4d8+16 (avg 34, 48) Or maybe change the dice all together? 1 sp= d10 (avg 6, 10) 3 sp= 2d10+6 (avg 18, 26) 5 sp= 3d10+18 (avg 36, 48) 7 sp= 4d10+24 (avg 48, 64) I'm just pulling numbers out of thin air. Does anyone have any suggestions? I would like to make spending more points on cure spells be actually worth doing so, instead of seeing a 20th level cleric having the potential to pump out 300 clw spells. Here's how to make spell points for cure spells work: First, have the spell level/point cost progression go spell level + 1 rather than (2 * spell level) - 1. So a cantrip would cost 1 point, a 1st level spell would cost 2, a 2nd level spell would cost 3, and so on. Next, have the cure spells work as follows: Cure Light heals 1d4 per spell point. Cure Moderate heals 1d6 per spell point. Cure Serious heals 1d8 per spell point. Cure Critical heals 1d10 per spell point. So using the default point costs, CLW would heal 2d4, CMW would heal 3d6, CSW would heal 4d8, and CCW would heal 5d10. The Mass versions would heal 6d4, 7d6, 8d8, and 9d10, respectively (those last sound like a lot, and in fact are considerably more effective than the PHB versions, but consider: Mass CCW is an *8th level spell*. The arcanists are throwing Horrid Wiltings around at this point. Hrm. It seems that Mass Inflict Critical would be pretty competitive damage-wise, though Horrid Wilting has better range and area of effect). However, you wouldn't have to stick to the defaults. The caster could always pump more points into the spell, for example getting 4d4 out of CLW by spending 4 points. This wouldn't be as efficient, but a bard who didn't want to spend too many of his limited spells known slots learning all the Cure spells might go for it. You could extend this mechanic to other spells as well. Here's how it'd work for the rest of the spells in the PHB: Close range would be 25 feet + 5 feet per spell point. Medium range would be 100 feet + 20 feet per spell point. Long range would be 400 feet + 80 feet per spell point. Unless otherwise stated, 1 day/level spells would last 1 day per spell point. 1 hour/level spells would last 2 hours per spell point. 10 minutes/level spells would last 20 minutes per spell point. 1 minute/level spells would last 2 minutes per spell point. 1 round/level spells would last 2 rounds per spell point. Save DCs would be 10 + spell points + ability mod. When it comes to level-dependent spell effects, 1x/level would translate into 2x/spell point.
The Simple Seeker II 03-26-04, 10:15 PM	Originally posted by schulerta Why pay 5 points for 1d8+5 when you can cast a 1 point CLW five times for a total of 5d8+5? Why pay 20 points for a 4d8+20 when you can cast twenty 1 point CLW for a total of 20d8+20? The system is broken. Granted that doesn't necessarily happen in combat, but outside of combat your cleric has virtually unlimited healing. Make cure light wounds 1d8 and make it an osiron. It can only be cast 5 times per day. Dump Cure minor wounds completely. Also change the others: CMW (2nd level still) 2d8+ caster level with a max bonus of +5. CSW (3rd level still) 3d8+ caster level with a max bonus of +10. CCW (4th level still) 4d8+ caster level with a max bonus of +20 I haven't thought enough about the mass versions as to whether or not they would need to be changed. A high level cleric will have plenty of healing power. At lower levels the cleric can cast 5 CLW per day, still retaining his healing power. The main reason to move CLW down is to prevent the abuse that would be inherent. For instance, assuming a 20th level cleric: Why pay 7 points for 4d8+20 when you could use CLW 7 times for a total of 7d8+35? Again in battle that isn't practical, but from the combat I have been involved in healing doesn't happen all the time. Most of the healing I see is in between battle. The more I think about it though, healing spells really have the potential to throw a game using spell points out of whack. In favor of the players. What do you guys think about the Vitalizing variant? The spell Lesser Restoration would enable casters to have virtaully unlimited pools. A 3 point spell at higher levels would quickly become abused. I like the concept, it is just too open to abuse. Troy Okay, besides the Clerics...how would this play with the paladins and rangers who have access to the healing domain also, their spell pool is not that great as the clerics. As you modify, it affect the lesser casters too. Your thoughts...
Tigald 03-27-04, 04:27 AM	What about healing spells cast in a row become less effective with every cast. I mean maybe the first CLW is fully effectiv and the second also, but the third heals only with half the normal power, whereas the fourth heals nothing at all. This could be limited by the casters Casterlevel. Caster Level divided by 2 rounded down:Full effective cure spells. The next use of the same spell on the same person heals only the half, and the next one wouldn't heal any points of damage. Until that person has fully rested and shaken of the healing energy in his Body. For example a 5th Level CLeric could casts 2 CLW wounds on one person with full effectiveness. The third CLW would only heal half the amount it normally would and the forth would not heal any pints of damage. So the CLeric has to use CMW in order to aplly any further healing. You could then use CMW 2 times for full effect, another time for half effect and then with no effect. The Heal Spell isn't affected by that, it can always heal 10/CL points of damage. You can also say that Higher Level Cure Spells are more pure than low level ones so that they effect the target less, which would mean the higher the spell level, the often you can cast it at full potential, before the targets body becomes more immune and therefore less effectable. With this option: Caster level divided by 2 rounded down + spell level of the curing spell! For the 5th level Cleric: (2+Spell Level=3) full effective CLW But: (2+spell level=4) full effective CMW Tigald
schulerta 03-27-04, 10:29 PM	Originally posted by The Simple Seeker II Okay, besides the Clerics...how would this play with the paladins and rangers who have access to the healing domain also, their spell pool is not that great as the clerics. As you modify, it affect the lesser casters too. Your thoughts... Good point. I really wouldn't know what to do. I guess for my own campaigns, the spell point system as written won't work. Troy