Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kiehtan 10-23-04, 04:16 PM	Has anyone noticed that it is cheaper for a cleric to cast cure light wounds than to cast any of the higher level spells? For example, a third level cleric could spend three spell points to cast cure moderate wounds, and heal a character of 2d8+3 hit points. Or he could spend three spell points to cast cure light wounds three times, for a total of 3d8+9. That is an additon of 1d8+6 for the same spell cost. The only benefit of casting the higher level spell would be in a combat situation where getting the most hitpoints possible as quickly as possible could mean the difference between life and death. Does anyone know if there is errata on this, or has anyone come up with a simple house rule solution? Thanks Kiehtan
ChimericalWolf 10-23-04, 05:13 PM	Nope, this is pretty much the way it goes. You see a similar thing in augmenting the psionic power body adjustment. It's much more cost effective to cast or manifest it one die at a time, the balance is that it takes longer, which isn't feasible in a combat situation, where you need those hitpoints _now_. If you want, you can houserule it, but I would say since they specifically made a power that did that, they meant to do that, and it isn't a loophole in spell point variant.
blargmanus 10-23-04, 09:16 PM	Actually, if you look at the XPH, it says that body adjustment costs 5 to manifest for Psions and 3 of Psychic Warriors and heals 1D12 damage. You can add another 1D12 healing for 2PP more. So augmenting it is actually more cost effcient if you don't take into accont the cost cap based on manifester level. If you're a Psion you save 3PP augmenting and as a P.Warrior you save 1PP.
Xeviat-DM 10-23-04, 10:42 PM	These are some of the issues that I'm attempting to address in my game currently. I would like to switch to an MP system, but after seeing the way that the XPH was handled, I would like to restructure the magic system entirely. Spells will be condenced and structured like psionic powers, with augmentations and all. But from a general standpoint, let's annalize a few "cure" powers from a level 10 Cleric. Cure Light wounds would cost 1 mp. It would heal 1d8+5 hp. That's 1 mp for 9.5 hp on average. Cure Moderate wounds would cost 3 mp. It would heal 2d8+10 hp. That's 3 mp for 19 hp on average. Cure Serious wounds would cost 5 mp. It would heal 3d8+10 hp. That's 5 mp for 23.5 hp. So, unless you're in the heat of battle, you are much better off using cure light wounds. Even in battle, you may be better off using which ever cure wounds spell you've achieved maximum caster level in, since those will be the most efficient.
Thelon Fairblade 10-24-04, 10:29 AM	The whole point of the higher level cure spells (in a mana system) is the same as higher level cure potions => Combat. If the enemy is doing 15 to 30 damage per hit, you don't want to waste a turn healing 11 points with CLW. you want to toss on 30 or more with Cure Serious, and get back in the fight.
Kiehtan 10-24-04, 09:08 PM	Yeah, maybe, but you shouldn't be penelized for casting the higher level spells.
Kem 10-24-04, 09:41 PM	Yeah, maybe, but you shouldn't be penelized for casting the higher level spells. You are not being penalized. You are paying more "Spell Points" to be able to heal it all at once and be useful as a healing spell, rather then casting it over and over and having the target die because the amount healed was pitiful. It is NOT a penalty.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 10-24-04, 10:02 PM	Well, this applies even with a standard spell slot idea. See, you have more low level slots than high ones, so that outside of combat, you probably should use the lower slots first. You'll end up healing just as well, and still keep your higher level slots.
IceFractal 10-25-04, 01:52 AM	That's always been the case, spell points just make it more obvious. For instance, take cure potions: Potion of CLW, CL 1: 1d8+1, avg 5.5 hp, 50 gp = 9.1 gp / hp. Potion of CMW, CL 3: 2d8+3, avg 12 hp, 300 gp = 25 gp / hp. Potion of CSW, CL 5: 3d8+5, avg 18.5 hp, 750 gp = 40.5 gp / hp. Its always more cost effective to use lower level spells*, but when you're in combat against dangerous foes, using just low level spells will get you killed. That's the trade off. That's why a magic item that hits someone for 100d6 damage costs a huge amount, whereas 100 magic items that hit someone for 1d6 damage are relatively cheap, because generally the value of something is not how much it can do in total, but how much it can do in a round, because in combat you only have a few rounds. Incidentally, that's why comparing spells points versus normal spell slots based on total damage done in a day is crap. Total damage done in a day doesn't matter because a goblin peasant with a dagger can eventually do millions of damage, given a long enough time, what matters is how much damage they can do in the few short rounds of a crucial fight. That's why quicken spell is important, it doesn't raise damage per day, in fact it lowers it as you use higher level slots for spells, but that doesn't matter, what matters is being able to use both those fireballs at once before the dragon makes a snack out of you. *The only exception to this is Cure Minor Wounds, which isn't as good as CLW, efficiency-wise, but that's because 0 level spells are intentionally subpar compared to 1st level spells, as they're supposed to be really minor magic.
Xeviat-DM 10-25-04, 02:05 PM	But this problem doesn't quite exist in the slot system. A cleric can't, for instance, use a 2nd level slot to cast 3 first level spells, unlike the spell point system.
IceFractal 10-27-04, 03:26 AM	Actually even in the slot-based system the idea that the longer something takes the more effective it can be is present in the Regenerate Wounds series of spells. Each of these cures far more than the equivalent level Cure spell, but they take a while to do it.
Kem 10-27-04, 06:36 PM	But this problem doesn't quite exist in the slot system. A cleric can't, for instance, use a 2nd level slot to cast 3 first level spells, unlike the spell point system. Unless we count Rary's Enhancer (to trade a level 4 slot for 3 level 1 slots :) ) But thats wizards only and doesn't matter as much with regard to cure spells. But IS an example of this "idea".
Dunther the Great 10-28-04, 09:01 AM	But this problem doesn't quite exist in the slot system. A cleric can't, for instance, use a 2nd level slot to cast 3 first level spells, unlike the spell point system. Actually he could if he used metamagic feats, and then the spells would be even better than normal maximise and empower for instance).
darczero 10-31-04, 12:51 AM	Don't complain about loopholes; exploit them. This one is actually one of the most balanced, all things considered. It's also quite a common theme from many RPG's, tabletop, digital, whatever platform.
Xeviat-DM 11-02-04, 08:15 PM	Don't complain about loopholes; exploit them. This one is actually one of the most balanced, all things considered. It's also quite a common theme from many RPG's, tabletop, digital, whatever platform. The problem is it will alter the survivability of parties, and require more rebalancing. But your second point does make sense, it is how things have been done on other systems.
HailSpork 11-04-04, 04:37 PM	Actually, the increase in the power of cure spells isn't that bad. Compare an empowered cure spell to a cure spell 2 levels higher: Empowered cure light, lvl 5: 1.5d8+5 Cure serious, lvl 5: 3d8+5 Empowered cure mod, lvl 7: 3d8+7 Cure critical, lvl 7: 4d8+7 Empowered cure critical, lvl 11: 6d8+11 Heal, lvl 11: 110 Ok, so this one is a little far ;) Still, cure spells do stay beyond the curve of empowering spells.
blargmanus 11-04-04, 04:59 PM	Actually, (yes, I am a rule monger, we used to have a really bad DM who would screw us out of saving throws, attacks of opportunity and any other possible advantage we could get) If you read Empower Spell, it doesn't tell you to add 1.5 times as many dice to the roll. You roll the dice normally and then multiply it by 1.5 then add any other things such as adding +1 per level. So for a Cure Critical Wounds by an 11th level caster it would be (4D8 X 1.5) + 11. So anywhere from 17 HP to 59 HP. You multiply the dice roll by 1.5.
Lord_Anthrax 11-04-04, 06:07 PM	Of course, it's even better when you buy CLW wands at 1st CL by the bundle. Long as you're not rushed between fights while going through wand after wand, the only complication it causes is boredom while the wounded wait to get healed up. At epic levels, better have a book to read while you wait. :cool:
Xeviat-DM 12-24-04, 03:13 AM	Sorry to bring this up again, but I'm working on my Augment magic system (I am converting all PHB spells into an XPH style MP cost and Augment abilities). I just reached the cure spells. This is how I'm currently ruling it, but I want to know what others think: Cure Wounds Conjuration (Healing) Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1, Rgr 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text Mana Points: 1 When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level. Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage. Augment: You can augment this spell in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 2 additional mana points you spend, this spell cures an additional 1d8 points of damage. 2. If you spend 8 additional mana points, this spell’s range entry becomes “Close (20 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)”, and its target entry becomes “One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart”. In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1. How does that look? It doesn't feel right to artificially limit the caster level bonus to healing, so I didn't.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 12-24-04, 04:55 AM	If you want it to follow the Cure tree up the entire trip, you should put a +5 bonus max on the caster level, with it going up by +5 for every 2 points augmented into anything (similar to how the DC boost works). Otherwise, right now, one should never augment this if they have the time to spare. Of course, seeing as that was the point of this entire topic, you've probably already made your decision here. Also note that this does not compare at all with the standard 5th level curing spell, Heal. Will you be creating a different spell to approximate that, or is it gone? Both have signifigant ramifications.
Xeviat-DM 12-24-04, 05:02 PM	Cure and Heal are two different spells. Heal cures a lot of HP and removes bad status effects. At the point when clerics are casting heal, they can also augment cure to affect multiple targets. I could limit the caster level bonus like you suggest. Or I could make the healing 1d8+mana spent, so with 1 mana it would only cure 1d8+1 (average 5.5 per point), while for 3 it would cure 2d8+3 (Average 4 per point), for 5 it would cure 3d8+5 (Average 3.7 per point), and for 7 it would cure 4d8+7 (Average 3.5 per point). It is still getting worse, but there's next to nothing I can do about it. The only other option would be to have a Lesser Cure spell for 1st level that cannot be augmented (1d8 for 1), and have a 2nd level that can be augmented (original cost of 3, augmentable in increments of 2) like body adjustment. But I don't quite like how that feels. The jury is still out on if I think higher levels should be more time efficient or more cost efficient ...
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 12-25-04, 01:20 AM	Cure and Heal are two different spells. Heal cures a lot of HP and removes bad status effects. At the point when clerics are casting heal, they can also augment cure to affect multiple targets. A good point. Also do keep in mind Mass Heal at high levels, as well (9th level spell normally, if I recall). However, the comparison of Cure and Heal did need to be made, as it's very important when it comes to those levels. I could limit the caster level bonus like you suggest. Or I could make the healing 1d8+mana spent, so with 1 mana it would only cure 1d8+1 (average 5.5 per point), while for 3 it would cure 2d8+3 (Average 4 per point), for 5 it would cure 3d8+5 (Average 3.7 per point), and for 7 it would cure 4d8+7 (Average 3.5 per point). It is still getting worse, but there's next to nothing I can do about it. Yes, that is the problem with scaling like this. You might note that most psionic powers tend to have absolutely no scaling off of caster level, instead having only augmentation available. That's certainly a valid option here, but if you did that, I'd suggest making the healing a bit better than what it is right now. The only other option would be to have a Lesser Cure spell for 1st level that cannot be augmented (1d8 for 1), and have a 2nd level that can be augmented (original cost of 3, augmentable in increments of 2) like body adjustment. But I don't quite like how that feels. No, definitely not. Sort of a waste, really, seeing as almost all Cure spells are divine, and that most divine casters already know all their spells; well, a pointless distinction. The jury is still out on if I think higher levels should be more time efficient or more cost efficient ... And that's the real question. I personally think that higher levels should be much more time effecient, and lower levels should be slightly more cost effecient. Not as much as they are if you did the base spell point system (about 1.5x as efficient, assuming best(worst?)-case scenario, if I remember right), but still something real.
Jaaz 12-25-04, 01:30 AM	Do the math, the spells/day under the spell point system is less than any normal spell slot progression the Cleric gets. This was part of the whole stink over the first Psionics Handbook. If you look in the new XPH, Psions get a much more favorable power point progression than the spell point system in UA. This was done, I think, partly to balance the free scaling issue, which doesn't unbalance too much in the cure department. (scales in stable numbers, not dice) So sure, you can shoot off 9.5 HP cure spells after battles, but you may cure a lot less, too. and if that becomes the case, then your cleric's burnt off 3 sp that could be needed in a fight just before you need to rest. Power point depletion plagued Psionics in their early incarnation in 3e. Now things seem more balanced, since Augmentation accompanied the new progression table. But, just keep in mind that a DM using this variant (with the UA progressions) should keep in mind that sometimes lower level spells will offer more bang for the buck, but only as a slow spread. You can cast magic missle for 1 sp, doing 5d4+5 every time, but by the time that 30+ damage/attack minotaur fighter gets done with your tank, you better be willing to pay 17 for that meteor swarm (24d6) up your sleeve or else you're dead. DMs need to adjust encounters at times to present fair challenges to the players under this variant. If they hold back and use very low-level defensive strategies to prolong daily life of their sp, then make their days longer/tougher. Sure, they'll rack up more XP that way, and using the alternate of multiple BBEG's might brink them on death occasionally, at least they're all having fun and they're not suckering you into being magic missle batteries. (one of the "reasons" for the lack of scaling/augmentation in the first Psionics Handbook) Psionics don't have this problem, as their scaling's built into their level in terms of what they can pay for. Casters still get it free, and thus get less versitility.
Xeviat-DM 12-25-04, 05:38 AM	Psionics don't have this problem, as their scaling's built into their level in terms of what they can pay for. Casters still get it free, and thus get less versitility. Casters don't get their dice scaling for free under the UA system, they must pay extra sp to gain extra damage dice. In my MP system, I am altering the spells of the PHB mechanic to follow an augmentation mechanic. I am already done through the Cs, but Cure Wounds has come up as a spell which is difficult to decide upon its augmentation. There is a +8 MP augmentation to cast it as a mass spell (as are most spells with a Mass augmentation), but I am unsure how to do the standard additional healing augmentation. And there are plenty of non-damaging psionic powers that scale with level (mainly refering to defensive powers which rely upon durations). Dracoulis, part of me is still not comfortable with 1 mp cures being the staple of the game in out of combat healing. 1. 1d8+1 (5.5 per point) 3. 2d8+3 (12; 4 per point) 5. 3d8+5 (18.5; 3.7 per point) 7. 4d8+7 (25; 3.6 per point) 9. 90 and healing of conditions (10 per point), or 5d8+9 (3.5 per point) That is definately not good. Direct damage spells deal damage on an even ratio based on MP spent, so the healing spells should do the same. As a divine spell, Inflict does much less damage than comparable damaging spells, but Inflict should follow a linear scaling, and cure would follow the same. 2. 1d8+2 (3.25 per point) 4. 2d8+4 (3.25 per point) 6. 3d8+6 (3.25 per point) 8. 4d8+8 (3.25 per point) Currious. When cast at even spell points, the spells are exactly equal. What if Cure healed 1d4+1 HP per spell point? That would be 3.5 HP per point on average; 1st level would suck, but the other levels would be about the same, or better. Inflict would suck, but supposidly divine spells are suposed to deal less damage than arcane spells. Heal still looks like a no brainer compared to Cure, but since Cure takes up a cleric's 1st level slot and Heal takes up a 5th level slot, I might be okay with that.
Xeviat-DM 01-13-05, 12:17 AM	:bump: Been putting more and more consideration into this. I would like to come up with some sort of fix to this issue as soon as we can.
schulerta 01-13-05, 11:40 AM	I am not saying this is a fix but my group is using a single spell called Cure Wounds (and Inflict Wounds) that does 1d4+1 per spell point spent. Spell Description When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d4+1 points of damage per spell point expended. Clerics can expend up to a maximum of 10 spell points, or 1 spell point per caster level, whichever is lower. A druid can expend up to a maximum of 8 spell points, or a number of spell points equal to his caster level –1 (min. of 1 point), whichever is lower. Bards can expend up to a maximum of 7 spell points, or a number of spell points equal to their caster level –3 (min. of 1 point), whichever is lower. Paladins and Rangers can expend up to a maximum of 5 spell points, or 1 spell point per caster level, whichever is lower. The 0-level Cure Minor Wounds heals 2 hit points per casting to help low level clerics. I also changed the Destruction and Healing Domains as follows: Destruction Domain: Spells: The first level spell becomes Death Knell. The fourth level spell becomes Poison. All other destruction domain spells remain unchanged. Healing Domain: Domain Power: Once per day plus one additional time for every 5 cleric class levels, you may use eight-sided dice for a Cure Wounds spell instead of four-sided dice. Spells: The first level spell becomes Aid. The second level spell becomes Restoration, Lesser. The third level spell becomes Remove Disease. The fourth level spell becomes Restoration. All other healing domain spells remain unchanged. So far it is working out fine, the party is 10th level and going through the CotSQ module. The Arcane Trickster went unconcious but the cleric was able to get to him in time. I also had them start at 1st level and go through and adventure to test out the healing. It worked fine, I didn't think the Cleric had less healing than he would in the standard spellcasting system. Troy
dragoncc 01-14-05, 08:53 PM	We use something similar to schulerta's but to account for the ratio as Xeviat-DM pointed out the key is in the addition of the caster level HP in our group's opinion as follows: Cure Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 1, Drd 1, etc. Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: WILL half (harmless); see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text DESCRIPTION When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures damage. For each spellpoint used in the casting of this spell, you cure 1d4 points of damage. You also add +1 point per caster level. In addition, for each additional 3 spellpoints (at total 4, 7, 10, etc.), you add a cumulative +1 point per caster level. The number of spellpoints you may use in the casting of this spell is limited to your caster level +1 (maximum of 11). For example, Leanna, a 5th level priest, casts cure on her fellow adventurer, Stig, using 6 spellpoints. She would cure a total of 6d4 + 2 points per caster level (10 in this instance). Refer to the table below for aid in computing totals: # of points d4 healed per caster level 1 1d4 + 1 2 2d4 3 3d4 4 4d4 + 2 5 5d4 6 6d4 7 7d4 + 3 8 8d4 9 9d4 10 10d4 + 4 11 11d4 (hope my first code attempt works :confused: ) We thought of tying the bonus into ranks of Healing to make that count for more HP healed but came up with this solution instead.