Spell Points and non-traditional spellcasters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell Points and non-traditional spellcasters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Magus_Extreme
02-25-04, 10:40 AM I was wondering, what would the spell points be for prestige classes with their own list of spells (such as Blackguard or Assassins)? also, what would the spell points for Adepts be?
The Simple Seeker II
02-25-04, 11:23 AM Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
I was wondering, what would the spell points be for prestige classes with their own list of spells (such as Blackguard or Assassins)? also, what would the spell points for Adepts be?

It states within UA, use the last column for all other prestige, and other non- core classes. Go from there.
Magus_Extreme
02-25-04, 01:46 PM really? where does it say this?
Kastas
02-25-04, 02:37 PM I don't see that anywhere, so here's what I'd do:

First, I'd check to see if the class's spellcasting progression is identical to any of the classes listed on the table. If it is, just use that column. Otherwise, simply calculate total cost of using each of that class's spells and use that point total.

Consider the blackguard as an example. The following numbers were calculated be adding together the total spell point cost of each spell. Note, however, that they are also equal to the number of spell points that a paladin or ranger gets at each level that they have an identical number of spells per day.

Blackguard level - # of Spell Points
1 - 0
2 - 1
3 - 1
4 - 4
5 - 4
6 - 9
7 - 10
8 - 17
9 - 20
10 - 25
ChrisWaller
02-25-04, 05:56 PM To calculate the spell points for minor spell casters such as paladins and rangers, use the following procedure:
1) Multiply the character's 1st level spells per day by 1.
2) Multiply the character's 2nd level spells per day by 3.
3) Multiply the character's 3rd level spells per day by 5.
4) Multiply the character's 4th level spells per day by 7.
5) Add these totals together.

For bards (and possibly other classes that can cast up to 6th level spells) use the following procedure:
1) Multiply the character's 1st level spells per day by 1.
2) Multiply the character's 2nd level spells per day by 3 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day).
3) Multiply the character's 3rd level spells per day by 5 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day).
4) Multiply the character's 4th level spells per day by 7 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day).
5) Multiply the character's 5th level spells per day by 9 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day).
6) Multiply the character's 6th level spells per day by 11 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day).
7) add these totals together.

For wizards and priests they used the following procedure for class levels 1 through 9 (remember not to include additional spells for domains or specialization):
1) Multiply the character's 1st level spells per day by 2.
2) Multiply the character's 2nd level spells per day by 3 (if the character can cast more than 2 2nd level spells, subtract 1 spell point from this total).
3) Multiply the character's 3rd level spells per day by 5.
4) Multiply the character's 4th level spells per day by 7 (if the character can cast more than 2 4th level spells, subtract 1 spell point from this total).
5) add these totals together.
6) for each level above 9th add 16 to this total

For sorcerers, they used the procedure for wizards and priests but added an additional amount of spell points equal to (2X the character's highest spell level) -1 to the total.

I hope that clears it up...and don't ask why I bothered to figure it out in the first place....
The Simple Seeker II
02-25-04, 06:43 PM Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
really? where does it say this?

My book is on a lent...so I suggest you reread the section that deals with the current classes and some more different classes...the sentence is there...read the entire page.

Column Four is marked for other prestige, or any other profession.
Magus_Extreme
02-25-04, 06:58 PM Originally posted by The Simple Seeker II
My book is on a lent...so I suggest you reread the section that deals with the current classes and some more different classes...the sentence is there...read the entire page.

Column Four is marked for other prestige, or any other profession.

Are you thinking Spell Points or something else? My fourth column is for Sorcerers. and no where in the text for Spell Points does it mention other classes. I think you're thinking of Magic Rating.
Magus_Extreme
02-25-04, 07:01 PM thanks chris! that helps quite a bit! question though, does this mean that you don't count 0-level spells at all for spell pointS?
The Simple Seeker II
02-25-04, 07:21 PM Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
Are you thinking Spell Points or something else? My fourth column is for Sorcerers. and no where in the text for Spell Points does it mention other classes. I think you're thinking of Magic Rating.

Okay...page 136...has a Magic/Divine rating system for class...sorry, for my confusion...(had to make a call to a friend who has the book...)

You can use that to gauge on how a Blackguard can attain spell points. Column B is for other prestige classes.
ChrisWaller
02-26-04, 05:48 PM Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
thanks chris!

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
does this mean that you don't count 0-level spells at all for spell pointS?

No, unfortunately they don't mean squat under this system. A character can only cast a number of 0-level spells equal to 3+ the number of spell points gained by their class at first level.
I'm not to crazy about that as it caps the number of cantrips available to the caster each day from the start.
If I do end up using spell points in my game I'll probably end up changing this a bit. I'm thinking of allowing a character to cast additional 0-level spells at a cost of 1 spell point each or of increasing the number of 0-level spells per day as the charcter gains levels. (Or possibly a combination of the two, after all spell points are supposed to be all about flexibility.)
Krelios
02-29-04, 09:58 PM Originally posted by The Simple Seeker II
Okay...page 136...has a Magic/Divine rating system for class...sorry, for my confusion...(had to make a call to a friend who has the book...)

You can use that to gauge on how a Blackguard can attain spell points. Column B is for other prestige classes. That has nothing to do with spell points, and even if it did I think simplifying all prestige classes down to a Paladin/Ranger progression would be a bad idea.
The Simple Seeker II
03-01-04, 08:49 AM Originally posted by Krelios
That has nothing to do with spell points, and even if it did I think simplifying all prestige classes down to a Paladin/Ranger progression would be a bad idea.

Okay...point made....:embarrass
katahn
03-01-04, 12:57 PM I use the following system for mana/spell points:

Spells cost 1 mana per level to cast, cantrips cost .25 mana (0-level psi powers likewise costs .25 power). Mana regenerates casting-stat modifier points per hour. Total mana pool, or mana points, works like hit points. Sleeping does not affect this regeneration rate.

Sorcerers: d12 + cha mod per level (more raw power compensates for smaller spell selection.)

Wizards: d10 + int mod per level

Druids: d8 + wis mod per level

Clerics: d6 + wis mod per level (lower due to being able to wear heavy armor and not have it interfere with spellcasting at all)

"Hybrids" (Rangers, Paladins, Bards, etc.) get d4+(stat modifier) per level where they get a base of at least 1 spell. This is due to their having much more in the way of non-spellcasting options.

Enchanting magic items uses mana instead of experience points. Casters may either use their entire manapool, some mana and some experience, or work in a circle with other casters of their class (and in the case of clerics, god as well) and each caster sets forward their contribution. Casters also have the option of "slow and steady" (borrowing a GURPS concept) to channel their caster-level in mana per day, every day, with no interruptions, to produce the item.

Casters have a number of memorization points equal to the weighted sum of their spells castable per day, as modified by their primary casting stat, divided by 2. This balances being able to recast desired spells multiple times without going overboard in giving them too many spells.

A spell does its base damage based on the level it was gained at. Fireballs and lightning bolts are defined as doing 1d6 per level, to a max of 10d6, starting at level 5 as a 5d6 spell. Casting a 10d6 fireball (if 10th level as a wizard/sorcerer) would be 3 mana to cast a 3rd level spell, then +5 mana to cast it at 10th level of power (for +5d6 damage), and then +mana for metamagic feat effects added in as desired. Metamagic feats that must be applied when a spell is memorized, affect the number of memorization points by +1 per effective level boost of the spell. Base memorization points per spell is, not suprising, the spell level itself.

Memorizing a spell takes 10minutes per memorization point, but requires the character have enough free memorization points to "load" the spell. Forgetting a spell is a simple task, taking effectively zero time. Any interruption in the memorization process results in failing to memorize the spell.

Sorcerers, do not memorize spells, they instead cast any spell they know, providing they have the mana. A wizard with careful planning, will be better than a sorcerer since they can have an effectively infinite number of spells to select from (via research, trade, and so on), while sorcerers instead are always able to do what they can do. For obvious reasons, sorcerer-wizard multiclasses have to keep spell lists seperate, as they are handled completely differantly. A wizard-sorcerer may not "memorize" a sorcerer spell, nor may a sorcerer "cast without preperation" a wizard spell.

Since I use a "best of" multiclassing system rather than the teired system (similar to gestalt, except experience is spent per-class and overall level is based on total of experience spent on all items including ECLs, templates, and whatever other power-enhancements the character can find in game), manapool and memorization points are likewise "best of." A 10th level wizard gains no benefits of additional mana or memorization points from adding one level of cleric, except they may now memorize 1st level cleric spells along with 1st level wizard spells, the benefit is that the character can potentialy use all of their wizard memorization points on cleric spells (if they felt like it) at the expense of being able to cast wizard spells. Mana regeneration is also based on which class/level combination gives the best regeneration if levels are equal, or highest level class otherwise.

I am dabbling with breaking the sorcerer class in half, and having a "Divine Sorcerer" and an "Arcane Sorcerer" being otherwise identical in everything except which kind of spells they can select from. The balance decision lies in whether using charisma for both would be too powerful or not, against the doubled experience cost of levelling twice (or more) effectively.

A max-level (20) sorcerer with 18 charisma and max-mana has (12+4)x20=360 mana to work with. If they burn to zero mana, they will take 90 hours to competely regenerate it. On average, mana would be approximately 180-220 depending on factors of luck of rolling, and I also favor using 3x(dice roll)/3, rounded normally, to get a more even distribution and simultaneously limit the odds of luck overpowering one character and screwing another one over. With an average of 200 ((6+4)x20) this would take 50 hours to regenerate from 0. Malicious GMs could always have null-magic fields bleed all mana out of a caster as a particularly nasty trap, and could also include means (via feats or magic items) to increase mana regeneration.

With 360 mana, a 20th level sorcerer could cast 35 9th level spells with 1 point of mana left over. With 200 mana, they could cast 22 and have 8 left over. This allows casters to be very impressive in emergencies, at the cost of a long period of relative weakness afterwords. Based on in-game experience, I notice this system actually tends to have casters casting less, so they have mana in emergencies, and thinking about the precise spells that will give them the best "bang for the buck" mana-wise. It also eliminates the "well I'm going t sleep, so I might as well burn it all now" syndrome I've also noticed in some groups. Since sleep doesn't enhance mana regen (and mana regen can even vary by local "mana level" if the GM wishes for game balance) a use of power must be weighed against the opportunity cost of not being able to do so later.

Wizards: 280max/180average, 31 9th level spells/20 9th level spells, 1 mana left over/0 mana left over, 70 hours/45 hours to regenerate from full-burn-to-empty to full-mana.

Druids: 240/160, 26/17, 6/7, 60hrs/40hrs

Clerics: 200/140

Hybrids: (assuming 15 casting levels) 120/80

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magus_Extreme 02-25-04, 10:40 AM	I was wondering, what would the spell points be for prestige classes with their own list of spells (such as Blackguard or Assassins)? also, what would the spell points for Adepts be?
The Simple Seeker II 02-25-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme I was wondering, what would the spell points be for prestige classes with their own list of spells (such as Blackguard or Assassins)? also, what would the spell points for Adepts be? It states within UA, use the last column for all other prestige, and other non- core classes. Go from there.
Magus_Extreme 02-25-04, 01:46 PM	really? where does it say this?
Kastas 02-25-04, 02:37 PM	I don't see that anywhere, so here's what I'd do: First, I'd check to see if the class's spellcasting progression is identical to any of the classes listed on the table. If it is, just use that column. Otherwise, simply calculate total cost of using each of that class's spells and use that point total. Consider the blackguard as an example. The following numbers were calculated be adding together the total spell point cost of each spell. Note, however, that they are also equal to the number of spell points that a paladin or ranger gets at each level that they have an identical number of spells per day. Blackguard level - # of Spell Points 1 - 0 2 - 1 3 - 1 4 - 4 5 - 4 6 - 9 7 - 10 8 - 17 9 - 20 10 - 25
ChrisWaller 02-25-04, 05:56 PM	To calculate the spell points for minor spell casters such as paladins and rangers, use the following procedure: 1) Multiply the character's 1st level spells per day by 1. 2) Multiply the character's 2nd level spells per day by 3. 3) Multiply the character's 3rd level spells per day by 5. 4) Multiply the character's 4th level spells per day by 7. 5) Add these totals together. For bards (and possibly other classes that can cast up to 6th level spells) use the following procedure: 1) Multiply the character's 1st level spells per day by 1. 2) Multiply the character's 2nd level spells per day by 3 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day). 3) Multiply the character's 3rd level spells per day by 5 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day). 4) Multiply the character's 4th level spells per day by 7 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day). 5) Multiply the character's 5th level spells per day by 9 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day). 6) Multiply the character's 6th level spells per day by 11 (counting 0 spells per day as 1 spell per day). 7) add these totals together. For wizards and priests they used the following procedure for class levels 1 through 9 (remember not to include additional spells for domains or specialization): 1) Multiply the character's 1st level spells per day by 2. 2) Multiply the character's 2nd level spells per day by 3 (if the character can cast more than 2 2nd level spells, subtract 1 spell point from this total). 3) Multiply the character's 3rd level spells per day by 5. 4) Multiply the character's 4th level spells per day by 7 (if the character can cast more than 2 4th level spells, subtract 1 spell point from this total). 5) add these totals together. 6) for each level above 9th add 16 to this total For sorcerers, they used the procedure for wizards and priests but added an additional amount of spell points equal to (2X the character's highest spell level) -1 to the total. I hope that clears it up...and don't ask why I bothered to figure it out in the first place....
The Simple Seeker II 02-25-04, 06:43 PM	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme really? where does it say this? My book is on a lent...so I suggest you reread the section that deals with the current classes and some more different classes...the sentence is there...read the entire page. Column Four is marked for other prestige, or any other profession.
Magus_Extreme 02-25-04, 06:58 PM	Originally posted by The Simple Seeker II My book is on a lent...so I suggest you reread the section that deals with the current classes and some more different classes...the sentence is there...read the entire page. Column Four is marked for other prestige, or any other profession. Are you thinking Spell Points or something else? My fourth column is for Sorcerers. and no where in the text for Spell Points does it mention other classes. I think you're thinking of Magic Rating.
Magus_Extreme 02-25-04, 07:01 PM	thanks chris! that helps quite a bit! question though, does this mean that you don't count 0-level spells at all for spell pointS?
The Simple Seeker II 02-25-04, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme Are you thinking Spell Points or something else? My fourth column is for Sorcerers. and no where in the text for Spell Points does it mention other classes. I think you're thinking of Magic Rating. Okay...page 136...has a Magic/Divine rating system for class...sorry, for my confusion...(had to make a call to a friend who has the book...) You can use that to gauge on how a Blackguard can attain spell points. Column B is for other prestige classes.
ChrisWaller 02-26-04, 05:48 PM	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme thanks chris! You're welcome. Originally posted by Magus_Extreme does this mean that you don't count 0-level spells at all for spell pointS? No, unfortunately they don't mean squat under this system. A character can only cast a number of 0-level spells equal to 3+ the number of spell points gained by their class at first level. I'm not to crazy about that as it caps the number of cantrips available to the caster each day from the start. If I do end up using spell points in my game I'll probably end up changing this a bit. I'm thinking of allowing a character to cast additional 0-level spells at a cost of 1 spell point each or of increasing the number of 0-level spells per day as the charcter gains levels. (Or possibly a combination of the two, after all spell points are supposed to be all about flexibility.)
Krelios 02-29-04, 09:58 PM	Originally posted by The Simple Seeker II Okay...page 136...has a Magic/Divine rating system for class...sorry, for my confusion...(had to make a call to a friend who has the book...) You can use that to gauge on how a Blackguard can attain spell points. Column B is for other prestige classes. That has nothing to do with spell points, and even if it did I think simplifying all prestige classes down to a Paladin/Ranger progression would be a bad idea.
The Simple Seeker II 03-01-04, 08:49 AM	Originally posted by Krelios That has nothing to do with spell points, and even if it did I think simplifying all prestige classes down to a Paladin/Ranger progression would be a bad idea. Okay...point made....:embarrass
katahn 03-01-04, 12:57 PM	I use the following system for mana/spell points: Spells cost 1 mana per level to cast, cantrips cost .25 mana (0-level psi powers likewise costs .25 power). Mana regenerates casting-stat modifier points per hour. Total mana pool, or mana points, works like hit points. Sleeping does not affect this regeneration rate. Sorcerers: d12 + cha mod per level (more raw power compensates for smaller spell selection.) Wizards: d10 + int mod per level Druids: d8 + wis mod per level Clerics: d6 + wis mod per level (lower due to being able to wear heavy armor and not have it interfere with spellcasting at all) "Hybrids" (Rangers, Paladins, Bards, etc.) get d4+(stat modifier) per level where they get a base of at least 1 spell. This is due to their having much more in the way of non-spellcasting options. Enchanting magic items uses mana instead of experience points. Casters may either use their entire manapool, some mana and some experience, or work in a circle with other casters of their class (and in the case of clerics, god as well) and each caster sets forward their contribution. Casters also have the option of "slow and steady" (borrowing a GURPS concept) to channel their caster-level in mana per day, every day, with no interruptions, to produce the item. Casters have a number of memorization points equal to the weighted sum of their spells castable per day, as modified by their primary casting stat, divided by 2. This balances being able to recast desired spells multiple times without going overboard in giving them too many spells. A spell does its base damage based on the level it was gained at. Fireballs and lightning bolts are defined as doing 1d6 per level, to a max of 10d6, starting at level 5 as a 5d6 spell. Casting a 10d6 fireball (if 10th level as a wizard/sorcerer) would be 3 mana to cast a 3rd level spell, then +5 mana to cast it at 10th level of power (for +5d6 damage), and then +mana for metamagic feat effects added in as desired. Metamagic feats that must be applied when a spell is memorized, affect the number of memorization points by +1 per effective level boost of the spell. Base memorization points per spell is, not suprising, the spell level itself. Memorizing a spell takes 10minutes per memorization point, but requires the character have enough free memorization points to "load" the spell. Forgetting a spell is a simple task, taking effectively zero time. Any interruption in the memorization process results in failing to memorize the spell. Sorcerers, do not memorize spells, they instead cast any spell they know, providing they have the mana. A wizard with careful planning, will be better than a sorcerer since they can have an effectively infinite number of spells to select from (via research, trade, and so on), while sorcerers instead are always able to do what they can do. For obvious reasons, sorcerer-wizard multiclasses have to keep spell lists seperate, as they are handled completely differantly. A wizard-sorcerer may not "memorize" a sorcerer spell, nor may a sorcerer "cast without preperation" a wizard spell. Since I use a "best of" multiclassing system rather than the teired system (similar to gestalt, except experience is spent per-class and overall level is based on total of experience spent on all items including ECLs, templates, and whatever other power-enhancements the character can find in game), manapool and memorization points are likewise "best of." A 10th level wizard gains no benefits of additional mana or memorization points from adding one level of cleric, except they may now memorize 1st level cleric spells along with 1st level wizard spells, the benefit is that the character can potentialy use all of their wizard memorization points on cleric spells (if they felt like it) at the expense of being able to cast wizard spells. Mana regeneration is also based on which class/level combination gives the best regeneration if levels are equal, or highest level class otherwise. I am dabbling with breaking the sorcerer class in half, and having a "Divine Sorcerer" and an "Arcane Sorcerer" being otherwise identical in everything except which kind of spells they can select from. The balance decision lies in whether using charisma for both would be too powerful or not, against the doubled experience cost of levelling twice (or more) effectively. A max-level (20) sorcerer with 18 charisma and max-mana has (12+4)x20=360 mana to work with. If they burn to zero mana, they will take 90 hours to competely regenerate it. On average, mana would be approximately 180-220 depending on factors of luck of rolling, and I also favor using 3x(dice roll)/3, rounded normally, to get a more even distribution and simultaneously limit the odds of luck overpowering one character and screwing another one over. With an average of 200 ((6+4)x20) this would take 50 hours to regenerate from 0. Malicious GMs could always have null-magic fields bleed all mana out of a caster as a particularly nasty trap, and could also include means (via feats or magic items) to increase mana regeneration. With 360 mana, a 20th level sorcerer could cast 35 9th level spells with 1 point of mana left over. With 200 mana, they could cast 22 and have 8 left over. This allows casters to be very impressive in emergencies, at the cost of a long period of relative weakness afterwords. Based on in-game experience, I notice this system actually tends to have casters casting less, so they have mana in emergencies, and thinking about the precise spells that will give them the best "bang for the buck" mana-wise. It also eliminates the "well I'm going t sleep, so I might as well burn it all now" syndrome I've also noticed in some groups. Since sleep doesn't enhance mana regen (and mana regen can even vary by local "mana level" if the GM wishes for game balance) a use of power must be weighed against the opportunity cost of not being able to do so later. Wizards: 280max/180average, 31 9th level spells/20 9th level spells, 1 mana left over/0 mana left over, 70 hours/45 hours to regenerate from full-burn-to-empty to full-mana. Druids: 240/160, 26/17, 6/7, 60hrs/40hrs Clerics: 200/140 Hybrids: (assuming 15 casting levels) 120/80