spell points and sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

spell points and sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thecosmicgoose
01-03-07, 06:04 AM my biggest quibble with the spell point system was how it rendered the sorcerer/favored soul redundant. with the ability to pick in choose which of their spells to cast at whatever time they wanted to cast them, giving the ol prep casters like wizards and clerics a similar ability kinda stole they're thunder.

so i though i did, since the spell point system was ported over from the new psionics book, why not look and see what they did with the psionic equivalent to the sorcerer?

so, would porting over a Wilder's ability to surge, exactly as written with only minor word changes to reflect the magical nature, work?

it seems a nifty ability, and would make the sorcerer/favored soul a worth-wile class again. maybe combine that with an increase of hit-dice, and perhaps a few more skillpoints?
Zumarai
01-03-07, 07:43 AM The thing is; Sorcerers/Favoured Souls/Spirit Shamans etc still have more Spell Points per day than prepared casters.

…Which is always nice.
AriesOmega
01-03-07, 10:00 AM so, would porting over a Wilder's ability to surge, exactly as written with only minor word changes to reflect the magical nature, work?

I use this for Sorcerer and also give them for free two feats. One...Eschew Materials...at 3rd though I think and at 1st a bloodline feat as per Dragon Compendium. The player picks one and cannot change it...i.e. the dwarf fighter/sorcerer picked the Earth Bloodline. He gets one bonus spell of the list in the book and cannot cast, learn, etc spells with the Air descriptor. I use spell points as is and so far it's okay.
NineInchNall
01-03-07, 11:16 AM The thing is; Sorcerers/Favoured Souls/Spirit Shamans etc still have more Spell Points per day than prepared casters.

…Which is always nice.

Oh, yeah, enough for one more 9th level spell than a Wizard. This is a power-down for the Sorcerer.
Zumarai
01-03-07, 11:38 AM This is a power-down for the Sorcerer.

Well, apparently people think the sorcerer is lacking anyway, spell points or not, so until we get a completely new sorcerer write up…
legophreak
01-03-07, 07:39 PM I had debated using Spell Points over Recharge for a long time in my homebrew, and eventually settled on Recharge.

Sorcerers in the Recharge variant get their spells back quicker so that is one aspect that is more appealing then the others.

Also in my homebrew, my sorcerer gets Eschew Materials for free, and i also converted most of the Wilder Abilities over for the Sorcerer with Arcane flavor making them even more appealing.

I have played a Wizard and a Sorcerer in a spell point game, and the Sorcerer...while getting more points, feels inferior to the wizard because the wizard can change their spell lists everyday, where the Sorcerer cannot.

One thing you could do to keep Sorcerers different would be to either, increase their spell points even more, increase their HD by 1 die category, or give them some other proficiencies in addition to what they normally have, or even consider giving them the draconic-stuff from RotD to help them along.

I am curious...

If you use spell points, do you allow psionics as well?
Zumarai
01-04-07, 04:42 AM If you use spell points, do you allow psionics as well?

Absolutely.

They still have completely different flavour, and both having a point system lends to the transparency action.
schulerta
01-05-07, 11:22 PM I was allowing my party to use Spell Points for the RHoD campaign. After going through half of it, we all agreed that it pretty much broke the game. We have switched back to the standard system.

The wizard in the group was playing like a sorcerer, the cleric was even more overpowered.
Archmage Atrus
01-05-07, 11:51 PM Spell points should only be used if you're already using psionics. It's the only way that a Wizard/Sorcerer can even match a psion for power.

That beign said, we also decided the Sorcerer got the shaft, so we increased its base spell points by 1.5 what they'd normally get. That meant the Sorcerer ended up getting the most spell/power points, which suited my play group just fine because it meant the Sorcerer became the reigning bad ass of spellcasting. The Psion still had better metamagicry, and the Wizard had the advantage of daily changing his spell list. It all worked out.

One thing to note - it only makes clerics insanely greater than usual, because they can afford to buff not only themselves, but the entire party and still have enough SP left over to cast heals. And it makes Wizard specialization a million times better because it lets you memorize 10 extra spells to cast as much as you can afford.
Archangel62
01-06-07, 12:07 AM Spell points should only be used if you're already using psionics. It's the only way that a Wizard/Sorcerer can even match a psion for power.

That beign said, we also decided the Sorcerer got the shaft, so we increased its base spell points by 1.5 what they'd normally get. That meant the Sorcerer ended up getting the most spell/power points, which suited my play group just fine because it meant the Sorcerer became the reigning bad ass of spellcasting. The Psion still had better metamagicry, and the Wizard had the advantage of daily changing his spell list. It all worked out.

One thing to note - it only makes clerics insanely greater than usual, because they can afford to buff not only themselves, but the entire party and still have enough SP left over to cast heals. And it makes Wizard specialization a million times better because it lets you memorize 10 extra spells to cast as much as you can afford.

Actually the stqndard wizard will blow past a psion in most areas excepting possibly the area that the psion focuses in. But that's a different topic, only problem with spellpoints is converting the rings of wizardry properly
Seerow
01-06-07, 12:15 AM Spell points should only be used if you're already using psionics. It's the only way that a Wizard/Sorcerer can even match a psion for power.

rofl you can't be serious
TheDarkLord
01-06-07, 12:51 AM I don't use spellpoints for the Wizard or sorcerer for the simple reason I do not want to have to redo alot of spells.

Think about it, you can now cast your highest level spells like 15 times a day, thats any combination of Gate/Shapechange/wish/save or die spells that you can cast.

It will get ugly, there will be no need for lower spells once you adopt spell points.
Merryadocc
01-06-07, 03:58 AM Take the rules "Casting Spells" on page 155 of Unearthed Arcana and throw them out the window, keep the spell point cost rules though. Now sit down and convert all the spell slots in the PHB (or the any other class you wish to pay) and using the spell point cost rules convert the slots to spell points. This will give you a better spell point ratio from class to class that will match the ratio that appears in the Vacian spell slot system. I did this originaly for a comparison and the differences amazed me. I give people which ever table will give them the most spell points at any given level, it also makes my NPC's rather awesome. Don't forget to give casters like Clerics, Druids, and Wizards bonus spells known per day as on the table on page 8 of the PHB, and bonus spell points as on page 154 of Unearthed Arcana.

Spell points can work, they needed to give another couple of ways to get them to work with in the rules to show how they can shine. As the rule stands they need tweaking or adjusting to allow them to work well in a game.

Hope my view on things helps you decide how to deal with sorcerers. Making changes to the whole game is usually what happens or needs to happen to get things working.
Dracomortis
01-07-07, 04:23 PM I don't know, I've always felt that the spell point system was a little weak - compare how many spell points the sorcerer gets to the number of power points a psion gets, even before considering feats and such that grant bonus power points.

To differentiate sorcerers and wizards, I'd have wizards stick with the Vancian system, and use spell point for sorcerers. Spell points is a major no-go for divine casters, unless of course you would like to give C.o.D.zilla a laser beam to go with his fire breath.
Archangel62
01-07-07, 11:51 PM Spellpoints can create some issues, however I've also found that it leads to some interesting tactics as in some cases players will go for different strategies and designs. I personally like it but then I tend to run higher power games...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thecosmicgoose 01-03-07, 06:04 AM	my biggest quibble with the spell point system was how it rendered the sorcerer/favored soul redundant. with the ability to pick in choose which of their spells to cast at whatever time they wanted to cast them, giving the ol prep casters like wizards and clerics a similar ability kinda stole they're thunder. so i though i did, since the spell point system was ported over from the new psionics book, why not look and see what they did with the psionic equivalent to the sorcerer? so, would porting over a Wilder's ability to surge, exactly as written with only minor word changes to reflect the magical nature, work? it seems a nifty ability, and would make the sorcerer/favored soul a worth-wile class again. maybe combine that with an increase of hit-dice, and perhaps a few more skillpoints?
Zumarai 01-03-07, 07:43 AM	The thing is; Sorcerers/Favoured Souls/Spirit Shamans etc still have more Spell Points per day than prepared casters. …Which is always nice.
AriesOmega 01-03-07, 10:00 AM	so, would porting over a Wilder's ability to surge, exactly as written with only minor word changes to reflect the magical nature, work? I use this for Sorcerer and also give them for free two feats. One...Eschew Materials...at 3rd though I think and at 1st a bloodline feat as per Dragon Compendium. The player picks one and cannot change it...i.e. the dwarf fighter/sorcerer picked the Earth Bloodline. He gets one bonus spell of the list in the book and cannot cast, learn, etc spells with the Air descriptor. I use spell points as is and so far it's okay.
NineInchNall 01-03-07, 11:16 AM	The thing is; Sorcerers/Favoured Souls/Spirit Shamans etc still have more Spell Points per day than prepared casters. …Which is always nice. Oh, yeah, enough for one more 9th level spell than a Wizard. This is a power-down for the Sorcerer.
Zumarai 01-03-07, 11:38 AM	This is a power-down for the Sorcerer. Well, apparently people think the sorcerer is lacking anyway, spell points or not, so until we get a completely new sorcerer write up…
legophreak 01-03-07, 07:39 PM	I had debated using Spell Points over Recharge for a long time in my homebrew, and eventually settled on Recharge. Sorcerers in the Recharge variant get their spells back quicker so that is one aspect that is more appealing then the others. Also in my homebrew, my sorcerer gets Eschew Materials for free, and i also converted most of the Wilder Abilities over for the Sorcerer with Arcane flavor making them even more appealing. I have played a Wizard and a Sorcerer in a spell point game, and the Sorcerer...while getting more points, feels inferior to the wizard because the wizard can change their spell lists everyday, where the Sorcerer cannot. One thing you could do to keep Sorcerers different would be to either, increase their spell points even more, increase their HD by 1 die category, or give them some other proficiencies in addition to what they normally have, or even consider giving them the draconic-stuff from RotD to help them along. I am curious... If you use spell points, do you allow psionics as well?
Zumarai 01-04-07, 04:42 AM	If you use spell points, do you allow psionics as well? Absolutely. They still have completely different flavour, and both having a point system lends to the transparency action.
schulerta 01-05-07, 11:22 PM	I was allowing my party to use Spell Points for the RHoD campaign. After going through half of it, we all agreed that it pretty much broke the game. We have switched back to the standard system. The wizard in the group was playing like a sorcerer, the cleric was even more overpowered.
Archmage Atrus 01-05-07, 11:51 PM	Spell points should only be used if you're already using psionics. It's the only way that a Wizard/Sorcerer can even match a psion for power. That beign said, we also decided the Sorcerer got the shaft, so we increased its base spell points by 1.5 what they'd normally get. That meant the Sorcerer ended up getting the most spell/power points, which suited my play group just fine because it meant the Sorcerer became the reigning bad ass of spellcasting. The Psion still had better metamagicry, and the Wizard had the advantage of daily changing his spell list. It all worked out. One thing to note - it only makes clerics insanely greater than usual, because they can afford to buff not only themselves, but the entire party and still have enough SP left over to cast heals. And it makes Wizard specialization a million times better because it lets you memorize 10 extra spells to cast as much as you can afford.
Archangel62 01-06-07, 12:07 AM	Spell points should only be used if you're already using psionics. It's the only way that a Wizard/Sorcerer can even match a psion for power. That beign said, we also decided the Sorcerer got the shaft, so we increased its base spell points by 1.5 what they'd normally get. That meant the Sorcerer ended up getting the most spell/power points, which suited my play group just fine because it meant the Sorcerer became the reigning bad ass of spellcasting. The Psion still had better metamagicry, and the Wizard had the advantage of daily changing his spell list. It all worked out. One thing to note - it only makes clerics insanely greater than usual, because they can afford to buff not only themselves, but the entire party and still have enough SP left over to cast heals. And it makes Wizard specialization a million times better because it lets you memorize 10 extra spells to cast as much as you can afford. Actually the stqndard wizard will blow past a psion in most areas excepting possibly the area that the psion focuses in. But that's a different topic, only problem with spellpoints is converting the rings of wizardry properly
Seerow 01-06-07, 12:15 AM	Spell points should only be used if you're already using psionics. It's the only way that a Wizard/Sorcerer can even match a psion for power. rofl you can't be serious
TheDarkLord 01-06-07, 12:51 AM	I don't use spellpoints for the Wizard or sorcerer for the simple reason I do not want to have to redo alot of spells. Think about it, you can now cast your highest level spells like 15 times a day, thats any combination of Gate/Shapechange/wish/save or die spells that you can cast. It will get ugly, there will be no need for lower spells once you adopt spell points.
Merryadocc 01-06-07, 03:58 AM	Take the rules "Casting Spells" on page 155 of Unearthed Arcana and throw them out the window, keep the spell point cost rules though. Now sit down and convert all the spell slots in the PHB (or the any other class you wish to pay) and using the spell point cost rules convert the slots to spell points. This will give you a better spell point ratio from class to class that will match the ratio that appears in the Vacian spell slot system. I did this originaly for a comparison and the differences amazed me. I give people which ever table will give them the most spell points at any given level, it also makes my NPC's rather awesome. Don't forget to give casters like Clerics, Druids, and Wizards bonus spells known per day as on the table on page 8 of the PHB, and bonus spell points as on page 154 of Unearthed Arcana. Spell points can work, they needed to give another couple of ways to get them to work with in the rules to show how they can shine. As the rule stands they need tweaking or adjusting to allow them to work well in a game. Hope my view on things helps you decide how to deal with sorcerers. Making changes to the whole game is usually what happens or needs to happen to get things working.
Dracomortis 01-07-07, 04:23 PM	I don't know, I've always felt that the spell point system was a little weak - compare how many spell points the sorcerer gets to the number of power points a psion gets, even before considering feats and such that grant bonus power points. To differentiate sorcerers and wizards, I'd have wizards stick with the Vancian system, and use spell point for sorcerers. Spell points is a major no-go for divine casters, unless of course you would like to give C.o.D.zilla a laser beam to go with his fire breath.
Archangel62 01-07-07, 11:51 PM	Spellpoints can create some issues, however I've also found that it leads to some interesting tactics as in some cases players will go for different strategies and designs. I personally like it but then I tend to run higher power games...