Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steelpunk 10-05-04, 02:42 PM	This must have been mentioned elsewhere, but search as I might I can't find any reference to it... How do people handle psionic power points if using the spell points system? More precisely, since spell point usage doesn't seem to be limited by character/class level (or if it is, please feel free to correct me), would you lift the restriction on psionic characters that states they can only spend as many power points at a time as they have class levels? This is assuming the use of the metamagic variant that allows charatcers to simply pump more spell points to apply any feats to their casting, increasing the spell's level.
Kainy 10-05-04, 03:18 PM	You can't spend more SP on a spell than your caster level. This is to keep metamagic from getting out of hand. RTFM.
Steelpunk 10-05-04, 04:19 PM	Mind telling me exactly where you found this? I've been over the SP section several times, and even the examples they give don't match what you're stating - their little example wizard spends SP far in excess of her caster level. The only limit I could find under this system is not being able to pump a spell's effective level beyond what the class level is capable of casting, which is fine, but isn't what I'm asking about... Of course, I could be completely blind - give me a page number, and I admit defeat ;)
gbnogkfs 10-05-04, 04:29 PM	The only limit I could find under this system is not being able to pump a spell's effective level beyond what the class level is capable of casting, which is fine, but isn't what I'm asking about... and the difference is...? (in fact, this is strictier that the psionic limit)
Steelpunk 10-06-04, 07:59 AM	Difference is that Wizard A can in some instances spend spell points in excess of their class level to manipulate magic well within spell level restrictions, while Psion B is restricted to spending a number of power points up to their class level, and no more. It may not be any more powerful, but to a player, it *looks* more powerful - for many people, more=better. To me, it looks fine the way it is - leave the psionic restrictions in place. Even if their metapsionics require additional prep (focus) and they're limited by power point usage, they have other abilities that seem to balance things out. I just wanted a collection of opinions, since I'm quite certain this argument is going to come up among my players when spell points come into play.
gbnogkfs 10-06-04, 09:57 AM	Difference is that Wizard A can in some instances spend spell points in excess of their class level to manipulate magic well within spell level restrictions sorry if I insist, but it's just the same as for a psion: let's take a Wizard level 15: (s)he can cast up to 8th level spells, ok? And a level 8 spell does cost 15 SPs (15 as the wizard level). When casting metamagicized spells they can upgrade a spell up to an equivalent level of those (s)he can normally cast, 8th in this case. And such a metamagicized spell costs 15 SPs (again, as the Wizard level). A level 16 wizard is de facto limited to 15 SPs per spell as well, as there are no means to spend 16 SPs on a spell. The limit with the Psion is quite the same (in fact, the spellcasters are more limited than the powermanifester at high levels and/or with non full caster/manifester: a psion 20 can augment a 9th level power, while a wizard 20 cannot do the same with 9th level spells; and Psychic Warriors can augment a 6th level as soon as they get them, while Bards cannot until they take Improved Spell Capacity) , while Psion B is restricted to spending a number of power points up to their class level, and no more. It may not be any more powerful, but to a player, it *looks* more powerful - for many people, more=better. To me, it looks fine the way it is - leave the psionic restrictions in place. Even if their metapsionics require additional prep (focus) and they're limited by power point usage, they have other abilities that seem to balance things out. I just wanted a collection of opinions, since I'm quite certain this argument is going to come up among my players when spell points come into play. I really keep not understanding why a wizard is supposed to be able to spend more SPs than his/her level in a single spell...
djinni 10-06-04, 01:16 PM	let's take a Wizard level 15: (s)he can cast up to 8th level spells, ok? And a level 8 spell does cost 15 SPs (15 as the wizard level). When casting metamagicized spells they can upgrade a spell up to an equivalent level of those (s)he can normally cast, 8th in this case. And such a metamagicized spell costs 15 SPs (again, as the Wizard level). A level 16 wizard is de facto limited to 15 SPs per spell as well, as there are no means to spend 16 SPs on a spell. but it is still cast as the minimum level caster the wizard has to throw more spell points into it in order to increase the effective caster level of the spell. there isn't a rule that limits the spell caster to only spending a number of spell points equal to his caster level because of loopholes like the same gnome paragon cleric with beads of karma and the "gnome/illusion" domains would be able to cast a quickened 7th level spell, instead of the maximum of 4th. The limit with the Psion is quite the same (in fact, the spellcasters are more limited than the powermanifester at high levels and/or with non full caster/manifester: a psion 20 can augment a 9th level power, while a wizard 20 cannot do the same with 9th level spells; and Psychic Warriors can augment a 6th level as soon as they get them, while Bards cannot until they take Improved Spell Capacity) The limit is set because there isn't tons of ways to increase manifester level.
Steelpunk 10-06-04, 04:58 PM	There are a few loopholes that do allow a caster to spend more SP than they have class levels (my players are notoriously good at finding them too), but overall I would tend to agree with gbnog, especially in the later game where psions are most definitely more fluid points-wise. I think I got what i was looking for - thanks ;)
gbnogkfs 10-06-04, 06:37 PM	You everybody continue to say loopholes exist: can you make a specific exemple of a spell with more SPs than caster's caster levels? I do believe you, but I'm curious to actually see it (well, ok, maybe Blighter, Divine Crusader and similar... but hardly abusable) :confused:
Steelpunk 10-06-04, 11:28 PM	Quite a few of the variable damage spells would be good examples of SP exceeding caster level. I'll use a 15th level Druid casting Blight (4th level spell) as an example: The Druid applies Quicken, raising the spell's effective level to 8th (the maximum spell level a 15th Druid can cast) - 15 points Blight is a variable damage spell, so is cast at its base of 7d6 (since 7th level is the minimum level for a Druid to cast 4th level spells) The Druid adds damage dice up to the spell's limit (15d6) - 8 points Bringing the total for this one spell to 23 points - 8 more than the Druid's class level. Most variable damage-dealing spells cast with metamagic would be open to this kind of points expenditure, though I can't say for certain how open to abuse it would be, since I haven't yet implemented the system into our games. Psions have a similar means of augmenting their damage, but usually not until a few levels after they gain the power due to the power point restriction. Since their metapsionics also have independent point costs, it's more limiting for them until much later in the game (though they would appear to surpass casters for flexibility in the higher levels nonetheless).
gbnogkfs 10-07-04, 05:45 AM	of course :D I didn't really remember how those rules work :cool: