Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SSR 04-28-04, 05:42 AM	What's you opinion on this matter? - I generally liked the spell points system, but after the xph it kinda faded, so we 've returned to the original form of casting (in which the wizard shows his true self), but what do you think? Gimme some pro's and cons of the two systems, and keep in mind that we like the wizards original system AND have a psion in our group...
Maladaar 04-28-04, 05:47 AM	I am actually thinking of using the Spell Point option. The reason being is that a player well-versed in the game can try to figure out the level of the wiz/sor/clr/drd by counting spells that they recognize. Of course this is metagaming and there is always the possibility of a high ability score grants a few extra spells. I just like the fact that every caster does not have to be identical with what number of spells they have minus any bonus spells.
Haldrik 04-30-04, 01:11 AM	I just got the Unearthed Arcana today for one reason and one reason only: spell points. It looks good. I will never do Vancian spellcasting again! I think spellpoints makes Wizards way better than Sorcerers. I figure, Sorcerers need some serious fixing anyway. So, what matters most is just to have a good magic system. Wizard + spellpoints seems to be the solution. I'm going to houserule that spellpoint Wizards don't need to prepare spells in the morning. If Wizard's don't prepare, they simply have the same spells available as they did the previous day. If Wizards wish, they can spend 1 hour "preparing" to spell swap whenever they want. I understand this will make the Wizard even more imbalancingly powerful, but at this moment I don't care. I want a satisfactory spellcasting system that makes sense to me. Rules be damned! I'll worry about balancing out the Wizard later (if truly necessary). Spell points are the answer. The Wizard's spell table basically turns into the Sorcerer's "spells known" table creating an adequate number of spells known. Finally! And swappable too! I'm thrilled! This is the way to go! Love it!
Maladaar 04-30-04, 02:09 AM	I will have to read over the spell point system described in UA, but I am not sure how this would make the wiz more powerful than the sor. The wiz would have to prep the spells of whatever levels. The sor would have to state which level slots he wants available. As I said though, I do need to read that section maybe there is something that I am unaware of.
Haldrik 04-30-04, 02:49 AM	The spellpoint Wizard is way better than the spellslot Sorcerer because: First and foremost, the Wizard gets normal spell levels. The Sorcerer gets retarded spell levels, always one class level late. The Wizard has "virtually" as many spells per day as the Sorcerer because the Intelligence bonus lessens the difference, and about 10th level the Wizard never really runs out of spells anyway. The only advantage that the Sorcerer had was the ability to cast any spell the Sorcerer knew. Spell points now lets the Wizard do this too! The Wizard now has the Sorcerer's only advantage. Now, the Wizard's Spell table becomes the defacto Spells Known table. The Sorcerer has a cap of only 3 spells known for 6th-, 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells. The Wizard's cap is 4 for all these spell levels! Plus Intelligence bonuses! The Sorcerer is stuck with its Spells Known, forever and ever. It can only swap *1* spell, and only *once* when gaining an even level, and only at *4th level* and after. The Wizard, on the other hand, can swap its spells known ... every single day! Plus the Wizard gets everything the Sorcerer never gets: Scrolls, Bonus Feats. Even if Wizards must prepare their spells for 1 hour every day, so what! The Sorcerers have to "prepare" their spells for 15 minutes every day anyway. The Sorcerer just sucks. The spellpoint Wizard is utterly, utterly better. The spellpoint Wizard blows the Sorcerer out of the water. The Sorcerer class is now ridiculous. I feel sorry for the Sorcerer, but the spellpoint Wizard is the way magic should be. I love the spellpoint Wizard. I can't wait to play it.
Nan Lung 04-30-04, 04:49 AM	I'm thinking of using spell points (and as such, removing the Sorc). I'm just wondering if I should lower their total spell points to balance out the near-spontaniousnessthingystuff*. Any thoughts on how far to lower the Spell points down? *Excuse my spilling, I are good not grammer
Alamir 04-30-04, 11:45 AM	One thing to remember about the sorc is not that it is meant to out cast a wizard. but its meant to be more versitle. A sorc in a party was a back up spell caster and information gatherer because there spells are based on their Cha. So they were meant to find information and when the wizard was casting on one guy the sorcerer could cast on the other. The other thing to remember about the sorc is that it is also a semi fighter. hence the battle sorcerer variant. It was meant for those people who like to cast alot of magic but don't want to be left out in the cold when a monster with a high spell resistance starts slicing into your party. And no i do not mean for the Sorcerer to fight like a Fighter or Barbarian. I mean that the sorcerer is still very capable of pulling out an arrow or two and adding a few holes into the opponent and then erasing them with a lightning bolt spell. In terms of spell casting the wizard had one from the beginning but its not all about the casting all the time.
Krelios 04-30-04, 12:14 PM	Plus the Wizard gets everything the Sorcerer never gets: Scrolls, Bonus Feats. Except that the Wizard still has to plan correctly for the day and the Sorcerer does not. More importantly though, the Sorcerer has a LOT more spell points than the wizard at high levels. Even the best prepared Wizard will run out of spell points long before the Sorcerer does (not to mention that sorcerers always have to spend one less point for the same damage on their spells than wizards since they get them a level later). A 10d6 fireball is 10 points for the Wizard (3rd level spell = 5 points + 5 dice of damage at 1 point each) and 9 points for the Sorcerer since the base damage is the what it would do at the lowest level you could cast it +1 per die (up to the normal max based on the spell and your caster level). Since the sorcerer gets more points per day and uses less of them when casting, he far exceeds the Wizard in terms of sheer spell power. Wizards are the toolkit, Sorcerers are the artillery emplacement.
NineInchNall 04-30-04, 01:10 PM	Here's my solution: let Sorcerers use a modified, vitalizing spell point system while having everyone else use the Vancian system. Here's my house ruled sorcerer spell point system: Sorcerers do not get familiars, instead they use no material components, except when the spell’s function includes the component, e.g. Trap the Soul. They use spell points to power their spells. Spells cost twice their level minus one, making first level spells cost 1 and 9th 17. Metamagic is applied as normal, increasing the spell’s level prior to the casting check. Once a sorcerer has expended half his maximum spell points rounded down, he is fatigued and must make casting checks as below to avoid taking subdual damage equal to the spell’s cost. Once he has expended 75% of his spell points, he automatically takes subdual damage equal to the spell’s cost, and must make casting checks to avoid taking lethal damage equal to the spell’s level. Optional: Once all a sorcerer’s spell points have been spent he is exhausted, and any further attempts at casting automatically deal double the attempted spell’s cost in lethal damage, and the sorcerer must succeed at a casting check or the spell simply fizzles. To cast a spell a sorcerer makes a caster level check plus his charisma (1d20 + sorcerer level + Charisma modifier if any) versus 10 + 3 times the spell level, making first level spells’ DC 13 and 9th level spells’ DC 37. An 18th level sorcerer with a 20 Charisma would need to roll a 14 or better to successfully cast a ninth level spell. Only natural and inherent Charisma bonuses count for this check, so a + 5 cloak of Charisma would be of no help. Spell costs: 0th: 0* 1st: 1 2nd: 3 3rd: 5 4th: 7 5th: 9 6th: 11 7th: 13 8th: 15 9th: 17 * 0th levels spells may be cast 2 times the sorcerer’s level per day for free, after which they cost one SP. At 10th level, cantrips can always be cast for free. Spell casting DCs: 1st: 13 2nd: 16 3rd: 19 4th: 22 5th: 25 6th: 28 7th: 31 8th: 34 9th: 37 The sorcerer now has his ridiculous spells per day, but has to pay for it when he tries to abuse his ability. Whaddaya think?
Haldrik 04-30-04, 05:57 PM	I forgot to mention the most important inequality of all. The Wizard gets normal spell levels. The Sorcerer gets retarded spell levels, always one class level late. I added this too to my list above.
Haldrik 04-30-04, 06:02 PM	Krelios: Except that the Wizard still has to plan correctly for the day and the Sorcerer does not. The Wizard must "plan correctly for the day", the Sorcerer must plan correctly for a life time. The two hardly compare. The Wizard has it *much* better!
Lina_Inverse 04-30-04, 06:14 PM	the wizard also is the 3rd best class in the game already.i like spell points on sorcerers and spont diviners.if i ever use magic again im doing that and giveing wizards all spells as there list....with sanity! or you could all just use psionics like i do now.
Ulden Throatbane 05-01-04, 04:47 PM	Two important points: 1: At 20th level, a sorcerer has 17 more spell points than the wizard does. That's enough for a single 9th level spell. 2: A 1-point savings on a very limited list of spells does not add up to a substantial savings. Someone did a calculation once and showed that if a 20th level sorc. and a 20th level wiz. did nothing but lob around 10d6 fireballs all day, then the sorc would be able to cast 5 additional fireballs (or about 50 spell points). Once you factor in that spellcasters aren't simply going to lob around blaster spells all day (especially because buffs, summons, and "save-or-die" spells have a considerable price advantage over them-a consequence anyone with a basic understanding of economics can tell you), then this advantage drops off considerably. On average, I think the sorcerer would have enough for one extra 9th level spell, plus a few others. This is less than what he had using spell slots (comparitively speaking). Given all of the advantages that the wizard gets with spell points, there is absolutely no reason that you should play a sorcerer if they do get them.
NineInchNall 05-01-04, 05:02 PM	Yep, that's why you give sorcerers spell points and let everyone else stick to their spell slot system. :cool: The great thing about having both in the game at the same time is that it really (finally) differentiates the sorcerer from the wizard, cleric, druid, bard, and just about everyone else. The sorcerer :mage: becomes the party's spell battery, while the wizard :teach: specializes in the truly arcane applications of his magic, making golems, items, towers... IMC we are using this method, and things are working out great. I just wish I had my Neutral Good Fey'ri Cleric of Lathander in there, too. :tantrum: *sigh*:weep:
SirisC 05-02-04, 12:45 PM	Originally posted by NineInchNall Yep, that's why you give sorcerers spell points and let everyone else stick to their spell slot system. :cool: Why not just use psionics. That is essentially what you are suggesting.
NineInchNall 05-02-04, 05:06 PM	Why not just use psionics? That is essentially what you are suggesting. I just have never liked psionics. I've never even liked the idea of psionics. Further, the only reason that someone might say that I was suggesting anything like psionics is that the current psionics system uses spell points. :rolleyes:
Wil_Hyral 05-02-04, 05:38 PM	I'm pro spell points, though I've played this game for... 14 years?
jagggar 05-02-04, 07:04 PM	SP Wizards make me vomit. Far as my next game goes, I'll be using SP Sorcerers (and bards) and normal Wizards. Divine casters will depend on how I'm feeling. One reason not to "just use psionics" is because they aren't magic. Psionics are powers of the mind, that's great if you want psychics. Sorcerers are people who have been touched by magic, it flows within their veins. (Not to mention to use psionics you gotta shell out more $ unless the SRD's been updated.)
Wil_Hyral 05-02-04, 07:58 PM	Yeah, despite the fact that I disagree with you about wizards, Jagggar, I can definitely see where you would distaste them. D&D classically takes the (mage) wizard as the "think ahead of time" class. In any event, I definitely cede that spell points sort of make the world a tight place for both wizards and sorcerers, so it's a little appropriate to get rid of one. In my opinion, anyway. Honestly, I've played the game for 14 years, which is a lot less than some of you, but it's a relief for me to finally be able to not use the Vancian system of preparing spells ahead of time. After a while, it just got annoying and I like the spell point thing.
jagggar 05-02-04, 08:30 PM	I don't really have anything against the normal Wizard. It took me a while to understand why D&D used a memorization mechanic when all the videogame RPGs I had played used a Magic Point system. This was when my only D&D was the Gold Box DOS games, most of which had Fighter, Thief, Cleric, and Magic-User as the only classes. When I got 3rd Ed. it took me a while to realize that there was something wrong with what the Sorcerer's concept and mechanics communicated to me. In my mind, once I wanted the Sorcerer to change, I wanted it to have,in short,the SP system. At least for the wizard and sorcerer (really for everything), the mechanics should match the flavor. In my opinion, the wizard is fine with memorization, but the sorcerer should be able to use the magic he knows more freely.
Maladaar 05-03-04, 01:24 AM	I am not sure what the deal is with the Spell Point system in the UA. The only thing I like is the assignment of the points themselves. 1st - 1 2nd - 3 3rd - 5 4th - 7 and so on... There is no way I would let a Wizard pick on the fly. I will use the standard progression chart for all spellcasters to figure out how many points they are granted and what the highest level spell is that they can cast. Spontaneous casters can continue to do so and can cast any spell (limited on by max spell level and number of spell points). While casters that have to "prepare" spells must give me a list, but can use their spell points to take what spells they like. (So they can take more high level spells and few low level or vise-versa, but there will be a list that cannot be changed on the fly, except for cures and summon animal, cleric and druid respectively).