Spellcasters as PrC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spellcasters as PrC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
khalual
02-15-07, 04:48 PM I'm playing in a world where magic is a little harder to come by then normal and was thinking of making all spellcaster classes PrC's needing certain feats and skills at certain rank levels to gain access to becoming a mage / cleric / and druid. These new PrC's would be attainable at 5th level. I would the retard the spell progression of the bard (I don't think that they need to be a PrC).

Any thoughts?
Krusk
02-15-07, 06:15 PM I would make the requirements something like this

arcane caster-
skills
Knowledge arcane 5 ranks
spellcraft 5 ranks
feat
spellcasting- must be taken at first level- adds knowledge arcane and spellcraft to your class list.

for divine casters the same but knowledge religion.
bartleby42
02-15-07, 09:20 PM I'm playing in a world where magic is a little harder to come by then normal and was thinking of making all spellcaster classes PrC's needing certain feats and skills at certain rank levels to gain access to becoming a mage / cleric / and druid. These new PrC's would be attainable at 5th level. I would the retard the spell progression of the bard (I don't think that they need to be a PrC).

Any thoughts?

Okay, first off, why are you doing this? I understand you want magic to "rare" but this can be done with fluff alone. Also if casters must be in a PrC will magic items also be extra rare?

Well here are the list of immediate problems:
-No healing until level 6
-Inadiquate healing until about level 9 or so (depends of the progression)
-Lack of "crowd control" until about level 9 or 10
-Lack of restoration
-No party diversity until level 6 (typical 4 person party fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard, with your system until level 6 the party looks like fighter, rogue, rogue, rogue)(why rogue? skill points to put in the cross class skill)
-Innate spell like abilities are now very powerful
-Feats that give spell like abilities (most are in CA) are now much more powerful
--------This fact will make more people take the feats, and
--------thusly making magic seem more inate and accesable

Now for the more "crunchy" problems
-How many levels will this PrC be? 10 or 15
-Caster progression is going to be a big problem. If we assume it will be a progression like the Ur-Priest that means 9th level spells will be used as early as 14th level. Also at 11th level as opposed to being 5 levels behind traditional casters your PrC caster is on par with them as far as casting goes.
-What if it is the standard progression? Then the highest level spell ever cast will be 8th level, which is attained at level 20. Less than ideal, seeing as Ur-Priests can then cast spells of a higher level then the most studious cleric.
-Some combination thereof? What level to you "catch up" to normal casters? What does it look like?

Really: Why are you doing this? Have your players clambored for you to prevent them from casting until level 5, and then "reward" them with 1st level spells? Have you had difficulties with "overpowered" spell casters? If so there are better solutions than basicly removing the class.
Krusk
02-16-07, 12:46 AM Well here are the list of immediate problems:
-No healing until level 6
-Inadiquate healing until about level 9 or so (depends of the progression)
-Lack of "crowd control" until about level 9 or 10
-Lack of restoration
-No party diversity until level 6 (typical 4 person party fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard, with your system until level 6 the party looks like fighter, rogue, rogue, rogue)(why rogue? skill points to put in the cross class skill)
-Innate spell like abilities are now very powerful
-Feats that give spell like abilities (most are in CA) are now much more powerful
--------This fact will make more people take the feats, and
--------thusly making magic seem more inate and accesable

Now for the more "crunchy" problems
-How many levels will this PrC be? 10 or 15
-Caster progression is going to be a big problem. If we assume it will be a progression like the Ur-Priest that means 9th level spells will be used as early as 14th level. Also at 11th level as opposed to being 5 levels behind traditional casters your PrC caster is on par with them as far as casting goes.
-What if it is the standard progression? Then the highest level spell ever cast will be 8th level, which is attained at level 20. Less than ideal, seeing as Ur-Priests can then cast spells of a higher level then the most studious cleric.
-Some combination thereof? What level to you "catch up" to normal casters? What does it look like?

Solutions to those problems.

1-rod/wand of cure X
2-lay on hands can heal. and spellless palidin varients get this. Monks heal themself, and again, rods/wands
3-lack of crowd control? should probably be elaborated
4-lack of restoration can be fixed by potions.
5-party diversity- Spellless palidin into cleric later. fighter. Rogue into sorcerer. ranger into wizard then arcane archer.
6-not a problem
7-again, not so powerful, but if you need to just limit them.

8-however levels the pc wishes to go into these prestiges.
9 and beyond- i dont think they ever "catch up" to normal casters, which is fixed by the fact that you want low magic.

He is probably doing this because he wants a diffrent feel to the world than normal dnd. Same reason spellcasting is so prevalent in eberon. Someone wanted more magic in dnd. He wants less.
scienceman47
02-16-07, 01:06 AM The primary price of arcane casting is the utter lack of hit die, base attack bonus, one save, and low skill points.

If the PrC brings a character up to 9th level spells in 10 levels, you have balance issues, because the character will benefit from the previous hit die.

This also makes it very difficult to be any sort of intellectual in the party.

I don't recommend it.
bartleby42
02-16-07, 01:31 AM ****1-rod/wand of cure X
Useable by spellcasters or with UMD checks. At low levels the DC 20 to use a wand isn't too easy to get.

****2-lay on hands can heal. and spellless palidin varients get
****this. Monks heal themself, and again, rods/wands
At 5th level, a Palidin with a Cha of 16 can cure 15 points of damage, and a Monk at 5th can cure 10 points of damage on himself alone. A 1st level cleric with a wisdom of 16 can cure, on average 14 points of damage (2xCLW (one base, one bonus due to wisdom) [4.5+1] x 2 = 11 and 3x CMW [11+3]=14)
I don't see how that is at all comperable, at 5th level a very charismatic palidin can barely heal more than a completely average 1st level cleric without the healing domain.

****3-lack of crowd control? should probably be elaborated
A party of 5th level PC are attacked by 35 kobolds. The kobolds pose no real threat, but fighting them will take forever, both in game and in real life. But with one fireball, the tedium dissappears in a satisfying burst of sulfur.

****4-lack of restoration can be fixed by potions.
The solution of Potions/wands is less than ideal for 3 reasons
---1. The aforementioned difficulty of use
---2. The party is forced to spend resourses on an expense
--- that is not planned for in the wealth tables
---3. These potions and wands are harder to come by ---because a smaller portion of the society can create them.

****5-party diversity- Spellless palidin into cleric later. fighter.
****Rogue into sorcerer. ranger into wizard then arcane
****archer.
Spell-less pali is pretty much a fighter, Spell-less ranger is pretty much a fighter/rogue without sneak attack. Sure there are some minor differences but a group of a Barbarian, Fighter, Swashbuckler and Samuri wouldn't be diverse, it would be variations on a theme.

****6-not a problem
****7-again, not so powerful, but if you need to just limit
****them.
Not so much a problem, but it does go against the theme and flavor the OP was intending by this house rule.

****8-however levels the pc wishes to go into these prestiges.
****9 and beyond- i dont think they ever "catch up" to normal
****casters, which is fixed by the fact that you want low
****magic.
Well, the problem is eighter you have earlier access to 9th level magic, or you have don't have it at all. I was mearly pointing out that fact.

He is probably doing this because he wants a diffrent feel to the world than normal dnd. Same reason spellcasting is so prevalent in eberon. Someone wanted more magic in dnd. He wants less.
I understand wanting a low magic world, but I am not convinced that this is the proper way to achive this goal. I am a big advocate of fluff over crunch when it comes to major thematic elements.

Ebberon is an excellent example, it is "high magic" but it does not change the basic ablities of any class (at least not to my knowledge). All of the flavor of Ebberon comes from the fluff.
All additional rules in Ebberon are optional for the players, the new rules have--- Races, Classes(new and varients IIRC), feats, spells and PrCs. If any player dislikes everything about Ebberon and wants a charecter completly devoid of Ebberon material, he can do that. With the proposed system the player cannot "opt out" if s/he had thier heart set on playing a spellcaster, instead the player has to play a class s/he did not want to in order to play a core class.
Krusk
02-16-07, 09:48 AM Yeah, but im sure the people who say they will play in this setting are fine with the rules. "Ok guys we are playing a game without bards, that cool?" "yeah ok lets go that sounds cool." "well how can we go about doing that..."

for 1 and 2, yes they have less healing. but they do get healing.

3- SO the dm dosnt throw them against 35 kobolds. Maybe they go for 6 bigger monsters.

4-or perhapse the potions are alchemical and easier to come by, because of the lack of magical healing?

5-id consider your example pretty diverse, we are gonna have to disagree on this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
khalual 02-15-07, 04:48 PM	I'm playing in a world where magic is a little harder to come by then normal and was thinking of making all spellcaster classes PrC's needing certain feats and skills at certain rank levels to gain access to becoming a mage / cleric / and druid. These new PrC's would be attainable at 5th level. I would the retard the spell progression of the bard (I don't think that they need to be a PrC). Any thoughts?
Krusk 02-15-07, 06:15 PM	I would make the requirements something like this arcane caster- skills Knowledge arcane 5 ranks spellcraft 5 ranks feat spellcasting- must be taken at first level- adds knowledge arcane and spellcraft to your class list. for divine casters the same but knowledge religion.
bartleby42 02-15-07, 09:20 PM	I'm playing in a world where magic is a little harder to come by then normal and was thinking of making all spellcaster classes PrC's needing certain feats and skills at certain rank levels to gain access to becoming a mage / cleric / and druid. These new PrC's would be attainable at 5th level. I would the retard the spell progression of the bard (I don't think that they need to be a PrC). Any thoughts? Okay, first off, why are you doing this? I understand you want magic to "rare" but this can be done with fluff alone. Also if casters must be in a PrC will magic items also be extra rare? Well here are the list of immediate problems: -No healing until level 6 -Inadiquate healing until about level 9 or so (depends of the progression) -Lack of "crowd control" until about level 9 or 10 -Lack of restoration -No party diversity until level 6 (typical 4 person party fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard, with your system until level 6 the party looks like fighter, rogue, rogue, rogue)(why rogue? skill points to put in the cross class skill) -Innate spell like abilities are now very powerful -Feats that give spell like abilities (most are in CA) are now much more powerful --------This fact will make more people take the feats, and --------thusly making magic seem more inate and accesable Now for the more "crunchy" problems -How many levels will this PrC be? 10 or 15 -Caster progression is going to be a big problem. If we assume it will be a progression like the Ur-Priest that means 9th level spells will be used as early as 14th level. Also at 11th level as opposed to being 5 levels behind traditional casters your PrC caster is on par with them as far as casting goes. -What if it is the standard progression? Then the highest level spell ever cast will be 8th level, which is attained at level 20. Less than ideal, seeing as Ur-Priests can then cast spells of a higher level then the most studious cleric. -Some combination thereof? What level to you "catch up" to normal casters? What does it look like? Really: Why are you doing this? Have your players clambored for you to prevent them from casting until level 5, and then "reward" them with 1st level spells? Have you had difficulties with "overpowered" spell casters? If so there are better solutions than basicly removing the class.
Krusk 02-16-07, 12:46 AM	Well here are the list of immediate problems: -No healing until level 6 -Inadiquate healing until about level 9 or so (depends of the progression) -Lack of "crowd control" until about level 9 or 10 -Lack of restoration -No party diversity until level 6 (typical 4 person party fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard, with your system until level 6 the party looks like fighter, rogue, rogue, rogue)(why rogue? skill points to put in the cross class skill) -Innate spell like abilities are now very powerful -Feats that give spell like abilities (most are in CA) are now much more powerful --------This fact will make more people take the feats, and --------thusly making magic seem more inate and accesable Now for the more "crunchy" problems -How many levels will this PrC be? 10 or 15 -Caster progression is going to be a big problem. If we assume it will be a progression like the Ur-Priest that means 9th level spells will be used as early as 14th level. Also at 11th level as opposed to being 5 levels behind traditional casters your PrC caster is on par with them as far as casting goes. -What if it is the standard progression? Then the highest level spell ever cast will be 8th level, which is attained at level 20. Less than ideal, seeing as Ur-Priests can then cast spells of a higher level then the most studious cleric. -Some combination thereof? What level to you "catch up" to normal casters? What does it look like? Solutions to those problems. 1-rod/wand of cure X 2-lay on hands can heal. and spellless palidin varients get this. Monks heal themself, and again, rods/wands 3-lack of crowd control? should probably be elaborated 4-lack of restoration can be fixed by potions. 5-party diversity- Spellless palidin into cleric later. fighter. Rogue into sorcerer. ranger into wizard then arcane archer. 6-not a problem 7-again, not so powerful, but if you need to just limit them. 8-however levels the pc wishes to go into these prestiges. 9 and beyond- i dont think they ever "catch up" to normal casters, which is fixed by the fact that you want low magic. He is probably doing this because he wants a diffrent feel to the world than normal dnd. Same reason spellcasting is so prevalent in eberon. Someone wanted more magic in dnd. He wants less.
scienceman47 02-16-07, 01:06 AM	The primary price of arcane casting is the utter lack of hit die, base attack bonus, one save, and low skill points. If the PrC brings a character up to 9th level spells in 10 levels, you have balance issues, because the character will benefit from the previous hit die. This also makes it very difficult to be any sort of intellectual in the party. I don't recommend it.
bartleby42 02-16-07, 01:31 AM	**1-rod/wand of cure X Useable by spellcasters or with UMD checks. At low levels the DC 20 to use a wand isn't too easy to get. 2-lay on hands can heal. and spellless palidin varients get this. Monks heal themself, and again, rods/wands At 5th level, a Palidin with a Cha of 16 can cure 15 points of damage, and a Monk at 5th can cure 10 points of damage on himself alone. A 1st level cleric with a wisdom of 16 can cure, on average 14 points of damage (2xCLW (one base, one bonus due to wisdom) [4.5+1] x 2 = 11 and 3x CMW [11+3]=14) I don't see how that is at all comperable, at 5th level a very charismatic palidin can barely heal more than a completely average 1st level cleric without the healing domain. 3-lack of crowd control? should probably be elaborated A party of 5th level PC are attacked by 35 kobolds. The kobolds pose no real threat, but fighting them will take forever, both in game and in real life. But with one fireball, the tedium dissappears in a satisfying burst of sulfur. 4-lack of restoration can be fixed by potions. The solution of Potions/wands is less than ideal for 3 reasons ---1. The aforementioned difficulty of use ---2. The party is forced to spend resourses on an expense --- that is not planned for in the wealth tables ---3. These potions and wands are harder to come by ---because a smaller portion of the society can create them. 5-party diversity- Spellless palidin into cleric later. fighter. Rogue into sorcerer. ranger into wizard then arcane archer. Spell-less pali is pretty much a fighter, Spell-less ranger is pretty much a fighter/rogue without sneak attack. Sure there are some minor differences but a group of a Barbarian, Fighter, Swashbuckler and Samuri wouldn't be diverse, it would be variations on a theme. 6-not a problem 7-again, not so powerful, but if you need to just limit them. Not so much a problem, but it does go against the theme and flavor the OP was intending by this house rule. 8-however levels the pc wishes to go into these prestiges. 9 and beyond- i dont think they ever "catch up" to normal casters, which is fixed by the fact that you want low **magic. Well, the problem is eighter you have earlier access to 9th level magic, or you have don't have it at all. I was mearly pointing out that fact. He is probably doing this because he wants a diffrent feel to the world than normal dnd. Same reason spellcasting is so prevalent in eberon. Someone wanted more magic in dnd. He wants less. I understand wanting a low magic world, but I am not convinced that this is the proper way to achive this goal. I am a big advocate of fluff over crunch when it comes to major thematic elements. Ebberon is an excellent example, it is "high magic" but it does not change the basic ablities of any class (at least not to my knowledge). All of the flavor of Ebberon comes from the fluff. All additional rules in Ebberon are optional for the players, the new rules have--- Races, Classes(new and varients IIRC), feats, spells and PrCs. If any player dislikes everything about Ebberon and wants a charecter completly devoid of Ebberon material, he can do that. With the proposed system the player cannot "opt out" if s/he had thier heart set on playing a spellcaster, instead the player has to play a class s/he did not want to in order to play a core class.
Krusk 02-16-07, 09:48 AM	Yeah, but im sure the people who say they will play in this setting are fine with the rules. "Ok guys we are playing a game without bards, that cool?" "yeah ok lets go that sounds cool." "well how can we go about doing that..." for 1 and 2, yes they have less healing. but they do get healing. 3- SO the dm dosnt throw them against 35 kobolds. Maybe they go for 6 bigger monsters. 4-or perhapse the potions are alchemical and easier to come by, because of the lack of magical healing? 5-id consider your example pretty diverse, we are gonna have to disagree on this.