Spellcraft rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spellcraft rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scribbler
03-18-07, 02:00 PM I like using variant magic systems in my world. It makes sense to me that, in a world with magic, different characters and different cultures would have unlocked different ways to use supernatural powers. While I'm definitely using transparency rules for interaction between different supernatural forces, I'd also like to make them seem different, and alien to characters not used to them, so I've come up with a variant for spellcraft and similar skills. I like the flavor of it, but I'd like your advice on if it will work well or not.

Different types of magic use different skills for the things spellcraft usually does. If you have ranks in any of the skills, you can still make a check, but you take a -5 penalty (so psi-craft could be used to identify a spell, but it's harder to do). If you have at least five ranks in at least three of these skills, you get a +2 synergy bonus on all of them. Classes who can use any form of magic (or psionics) get the appropriate skill as a class skill, and intelligence/knowledge based casters get all of them.

There would be a seperate skill for:
Arcane magic,
Divine magic,
Psionics,
Incarnum,
Pact magic, and
Shadow magic

Truespeak and martial lore would be special cases, if they come up:
Any of the other skills could be used to identify an Utterance with the -5 penalty, but Truespeak does not allow one to identify other types of magic, because it does so much else. Truespeak can still count as one of the three skills to gain the synergy bonus, but the bonus only counts for identifying an Utterance, not for other uses of Truespeak.

Despite working mechanically similar to spellcraft, martial lore is not included in this system for the most part, since it's really completely unrelated knowledge. The other skills can be used to identify a martial script with the -5 penalty, and can be used to identify any supernatural maneuvers with a -10 penalty. Martial lore can never be used in place of the other skills, and neither counts toward nor gains the synergy bonus.

I like the flavor of this, but I also realize that it's fairly complicated and weakens spellcraft in most cases. Do you think this idea is any good?
TheCanadian
03-18-07, 02:30 PM I think that it's not a bad idea, having different knowledge skills for different types of magic, however I think you're going to run into a major problem.

Unless the spellcaster is a Wizard, who get ungodly amounts of skill points per level, I don't think you're going to find your players investing a lot of skill points into these other, semi-useless skills, especially when most of them are counted as cross-class.

For example, say I was playing a Cleric. I already don't get a lot of skill points (2 +Int), and Intelligence isn't a big stat for me. I'm going to want to take what little points I have and put them in skills that will really assist me, like Concentration, Heal and Diplomacy. I don't have the resources to pump up multiple cross-class spell knowledges, just so I can figure out what spell my enemy is casting.

I think that flavour wise it's an excellent idea, seperate knowledges for seperate magics, but mechanically I think you're not going to find it used as much as you may want it to be.

Perhaps, instead of making them skills that are increased by skill points, you make them quasi skills that can only be boosted by "Magic Knowledge Points." The number of MKP a character gets at each level is equal to his Spellcasting Ability Modifier. So a Cleric with a Wis Modifier of +4 would get 4 Magic Knowledge Points a level to distribute among these different quai-skills.

Hope I've helped.
Scribbler
03-18-07, 05:28 PM I wouldn't actually expect most characters to take ranks in most of the skills. The penalty for using the wrong skill would make it harder to identify magic outside of their own expertise, but still possible if they're good enough.

For int-based casters (and maybe bards?) it's an added option. If they take more of the skills then they have less skill points for other things, but they can easily not take any and have the same skills they would have had otherwise.
dndfencer
03-18-07, 07:01 PM perhaps you could let them choose a # of different magic types each time they invest a rank in spellcraft = to their int mod (I know this helps wizards a lot but hey they are wizards and should know a lot, that is the basis of thier magic). Example, wizard w/ +4 int and a rank in spellcraft chooses 4 types of magic in which he has that rank. I always thought spellcraft was damn better than psicraft anyway b/c it applied to arcane + divine but this levels it out. (2nd thought, maybe 1/2 int mod).
:mage: :fight!: :duel: :duel: :fight!: :mage:

Damn i love smilies (they have a lot and im just flippin' through)
JustinA
03-20-07, 12:20 AM I like the flavor of this, but I also realize that it's fairly complicated and weakens spellcraft in most cases. Do you think this idea is any good?

I use a rule where characters can purchase a specialization in any skill. For example, Spellcraft-Arcane or Search-Stonework. When using the skill in their area of expertise, they gain a +2 circumstance bonus. For all other uses of the skill, however, they suffer a -4 penalty.

This rule has worked fairly well, so I don't think you'll run into any serious problem with your variant.
ragoftag
03-22-07, 07:47 PM I set Spellcraft as the relevant skill, but apply negatives to the user based on the magic they themselves use. A Ranger, eg, uses a form of druid magic, and another Ranger or Druid would have no penalty, but a Wizard would have some penalty. I also have languages affect the DCs. Incidentally, magic is common enough that Spellcraft is crossclass for any but Barbarians. Somewhere, I stole a feat that allows a faked spell or 'counter spellcraft spell' to be cast.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scribbler 03-18-07, 02:00 PM	I like using variant magic systems in my world. It makes sense to me that, in a world with magic, different characters and different cultures would have unlocked different ways to use supernatural powers. While I'm definitely using transparency rules for interaction between different supernatural forces, I'd also like to make them seem different, and alien to characters not used to them, so I've come up with a variant for spellcraft and similar skills. I like the flavor of it, but I'd like your advice on if it will work well or not. Different types of magic use different skills for the things spellcraft usually does. If you have ranks in any of the skills, you can still make a check, but you take a -5 penalty (so psi-craft could be used to identify a spell, but it's harder to do). If you have at least five ranks in at least three of these skills, you get a +2 synergy bonus on all of them. Classes who can use any form of magic (or psionics) get the appropriate skill as a class skill, and intelligence/knowledge based casters get all of them. There would be a seperate skill for: Arcane magic, Divine magic, Psionics, Incarnum, Pact magic, and Shadow magic Truespeak and martial lore would be special cases, if they come up: Any of the other skills could be used to identify an Utterance with the -5 penalty, but Truespeak does not allow one to identify other types of magic, because it does so much else. Truespeak can still count as one of the three skills to gain the synergy bonus, but the bonus only counts for identifying an Utterance, not for other uses of Truespeak. Despite working mechanically similar to spellcraft, martial lore is not included in this system for the most part, since it's really completely unrelated knowledge. The other skills can be used to identify a martial script with the -5 penalty, and can be used to identify any supernatural maneuvers with a -10 penalty. Martial lore can never be used in place of the other skills, and neither counts toward nor gains the synergy bonus. I like the flavor of this, but I also realize that it's fairly complicated and weakens spellcraft in most cases. Do you think this idea is any good?
TheCanadian 03-18-07, 02:30 PM	I think that it's not a bad idea, having different knowledge skills for different types of magic, however I think you're going to run into a major problem. Unless the spellcaster is a Wizard, who get ungodly amounts of skill points per level, I don't think you're going to find your players investing a lot of skill points into these other, semi-useless skills, especially when most of them are counted as cross-class. For example, say I was playing a Cleric. I already don't get a lot of skill points (2 +Int), and Intelligence isn't a big stat for me. I'm going to want to take what little points I have and put them in skills that will really assist me, like Concentration, Heal and Diplomacy. I don't have the resources to pump up multiple cross-class spell knowledges, just so I can figure out what spell my enemy is casting. I think that flavour wise it's an excellent idea, seperate knowledges for seperate magics, but mechanically I think you're not going to find it used as much as you may want it to be. Perhaps, instead of making them skills that are increased by skill points, you make them quasi skills that can only be boosted by "Magic Knowledge Points." The number of MKP a character gets at each level is equal to his Spellcasting Ability Modifier. So a Cleric with a Wis Modifier of +4 would get 4 Magic Knowledge Points a level to distribute among these different quai-skills. Hope I've helped.
Scribbler 03-18-07, 05:28 PM	I wouldn't actually expect most characters to take ranks in most of the skills. The penalty for using the wrong skill would make it harder to identify magic outside of their own expertise, but still possible if they're good enough. For int-based casters (and maybe bards?) it's an added option. If they take more of the skills then they have less skill points for other things, but they can easily not take any and have the same skills they would have had otherwise.
dndfencer 03-18-07, 07:01 PM	perhaps you could let them choose a # of different magic types each time they invest a rank in spellcraft = to their int mod (I know this helps wizards a lot but hey they are wizards and should know a lot, that is the basis of thier magic). Example, wizard w/ +4 int and a rank in spellcraft chooses 4 types of magic in which he has that rank. I always thought spellcraft was damn better than psicraft anyway b/c it applied to arcane + divine but this levels it out. (2nd thought, maybe 1/2 int mod). :mage: :fight!: :duel: :duel: :fight!: :mage: Damn i love smilies (they have a lot and im just flippin' through)
JustinA 03-20-07, 12:20 AM	I like the flavor of this, but I also realize that it's fairly complicated and weakens spellcraft in most cases. Do you think this idea is any good? I use a rule where characters can purchase a specialization in any skill. For example, Spellcraft-Arcane or Search-Stonework. When using the skill in their area of expertise, they gain a +2 circumstance bonus. For all other uses of the skill, however, they suffer a -4 penalty. This rule has worked fairly well, so I don't think you'll run into any serious problem with your variant.
ragoftag 03-22-07, 07:47 PM	I set Spellcraft as the relevant skill, but apply negatives to the user based on the magic they themselves use. A Ranger, eg, uses a form of druid magic, and another Ranger or Druid would have no penalty, but a Wizard would have some penalty. I also have languages affect the DCs. Incidentally, magic is common enough that Spellcraft is crossclass for any but Barbarians. Somewhere, I stole a feat that allows a faked spell or 'counter spellcraft spell' to be cast.