Spells as Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spells as Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ogral1
06-15-05, 04:41 AM I was thinking about making a system where spells would be bought like skills. Something like the Star Wars rpg has with force skills. I am basically looking for a way to have a feasible spellcasting class for a low magic campaign. Does anyone think this will work or have a source that has done something like this?
Ra-Tiel
06-15-05, 05:56 AM Hi.

===

@ogral1:
I was thinking about making a system where spells would be bought like skills. Something like the Star Wars rpg has with force skills. I am basically looking for a way to have a feasible spellcasting class for a low magic campaign. Does anyone think this will work or have a source that has done something like this?
A system like you want hasn't been done for DnD, AFAIK, but the german rpg "Das Schwarze Auge" (also available in English as "The Black Eye") has exactly what you want.

Each spell is a seperate skill, and with your role you determine how "good" you cast the spell. Learning new spells or improving known spells over certain limits costs months of study and money. The costs of improving a "spell skill" is based on your current level in that spell. If you know Earthdawn, you have a pretty good idea what the character improvement in DSA4 looks like. You have a total pool of "experience" and you buy additional ranks from that pool. Each additional rank gets more expensive, and with time you need huge ammounts of XP to increase a single skill by +1.

The problem with DnD is: something like this wouldn't work. How do you determine how many skill points the wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid/bard/... get for their spells? If you give the casting classes additional skillpoints, then the non-casters will be punished even more.

But you could possibly come up with something like the following:

Minor Spellcasting
Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 11
Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 0 of your respective list. The list you have access to depends on your character class.
Special: Bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Spellcasting
Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 13
Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 1 - 3 of your respective list. You still need a key ability score of 10+spell level to cast a level of that level. You still gain access to various spell levels at the same levels as indicated in the class table in the PHb.
Special: Bards gain this feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level. Clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. Rangers and paladins gain this feat as a bonus feat at 4th level.

Supreme Spellcasting
Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 15
Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 4 - 6 of your respective list. You still need a key ability score of 10+spell level to cast a level of that level. You still gain access to various spell levels at the same levels as indicated in the class table in the PHb.

Spellcasting Mastery
Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 17
Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 7 - 9 of your respective list. You still need a key ability score of 10+spell level to cast a level of that level. You still gain access to various spell levels at the same levels as indicated in the class table in the PHb.

If you simply must have skills, you could go with the following:

Spellcasting [School]
Your ranks in each of the 8 schools of magic determine your casterlevel for that school. Your casterlevel is considered to be equal to "ranks in the skill - 3". You can only cast spells for which you have sufficient ranks in the relevant skill.

Instead of normal casterlevel checks you make "Spellcasting [School]" skill checks. The SR of enemies is in this system treated as "old SR+5", and you make a simple "Spellcasting [School]" skill check vs a DC of the target's SR. If you beat the DC, the spell affects the target normally, otherwise the spell fails to do so.

Instead of normal concentration checks you make "Spellcasting [School]" skill checks. The DCs are the same as for the Concentration skill.

For each 5 ranks you have in a single "Spellcasting [School]" skill, the Save DC vs spells from that school you cast is increased by +1.

Classes with limited spells known (like the sorcerer) still must select their spells normally. But their casterlevel and other bonuses are now dependent on this skill for their spells.

The feats "spell penetration" and "greater spell penetration" schould be removed when using this system, as should be "spell focus" and "greater spell focus"

School spell points ("skill points that can only be spend on the "Spellcasting [School]" skills) per class:

Bard: 3+Int
Cleric: 4+Int
Druid: 4+Int
Paladin: 2+Int
Ranger: 2+Int
Sorcerer: 6+Int
Wizard: 4+Int

"Spellcasting [School]" skills per class:
Bar Clr Drd Pal Rng Sor Wiz
Abjuration C C C X X C C
Conjuration C C C C C C C
Divination C C C X X C C
Enchantment C C X X X C C
Evocation X C C X X C C
Illusion C C X X X C C
Necromancy X C C X X C C
Transmutation X C C C C C C

Please consider: I haven't tested any of these suggestions, they are just some quick ideas. You could possibly even combine them: making access to spell levels dependent on the feats while determining casterlevels and such by the skills. Hope that helps you.

===

Greetings,
_Ra-Tiel.
weasel fierce
06-15-05, 01:08 PM For inspiration ,track down a copy of Runequest, or GURPS.

For D20 related stuff, the brand new Blue Rose RPG treats spells sort of the same way, and may be easier to adapt.
the_one_true_shea
06-17-05, 11:13 AM A system like you want hasn't been done for DnD, AFAIK, but the german rpg "Das Schwarze Auge" (also available in English as "The Black Eye") has exactly what you want.

I like the spoilers Ra!! The feats echo something I have done to make magic more powerful.. I have always felt that the funky thing with magic is that you are better off at the beggining of a combat.. but at the end of combat your shot. My real responce is to give everybody spell resistance and balance casters with the ability to cast more spells.

As far as spells as skills - how about "Speak Language" .. Not 8 skills - one for each school (though I have done that similarly - with a new school format, 8 ), but "Cast Spell" 1 skill point per class spell and two for cross class spells (you might want to work that up).

Now the thing that intruges me the most - is the addition of dedicated skills - not too different from having fighter feats. If you remove the spell's per day option you could balance, and mirror, fighter bonus feats with caster bonus spells. OR you could leave sorcerers the same and non-spontanius casters work that way (certainly draw a sharper line between them). "Bonus Spell Skill Point" .... great idea.

Also, as far as what you have actually said sound like you want a modified feat system for vancian magic - not really a skill based casting system. Perhaps if you were to delve more deeply into the concept of spell creation? and Preperation? So these would not be skill checks made when Casting but the checks made in making the spells and preparing them properly.

Replace the mage Bonus metamagic feats with the Bonus Spell Skill points I mentioned. Create spell that actually give you temporary "Spell Skill Bonuses" ( call them "attune" or "focus" or something - basically a spell you cast before you go "into you magic workshop" and check your skills), and allow a sorcerer to change spells known as described. Either caster type can make a spell based off a difficulty - determined by the number of metamagic - like - adjustments you give it. Refer to Epic spell seeds for the "big version" of this idea. Actually refer to the epic spell seeds for losts of good ideas related to adaptable magic.
Mankyle
06-20-05, 04:11 AM Spells as skills

I have, with the aid of one of my players, devised a modification of the Force system from the SW RPG, and taking some inspiration from the Fifth Age Magica system. We are using the WP/VP variant hitpoint system.
I have created two new basic classes: revised sorcerer and revised cleric.
These two classes are built around two feats: Initiate and Arcane Heritage(which let you choose a variety of basic magical Feats)

The spells are not spells per se, they are magical skills:
Aeromancy
GeoMancy
Hidromancy
Piromancy
(These area all elemental manipulation skills)

Sensiblity
(This skills lets you feel and perceive the magic flowing in everything)

Clarisintience
Intuition
(These are divination skills. The first lets you see other thing in other places, much like scrying. The second gives you a bonus on many skill scheks)

Conjuration
(Teleportation, monster invocation and some other uses)

Energy Channeling
(This is an exlusive skill for clerics which governs healing, and Turn/Command Undead)

Telepathy
Ilusion
(These are mentalism skills)

Animism(This is a skills which only affects natural creatures with INT scores of 4 or less. Affects plants and animals only)

There are some other skills (nigromancy, spiritualism,....) But are not fixed yet.

Then I have some Basic Magical Feats, which let you learn magical skills as class skills, for example the following:
Basic Elementalism
This feats lets you learn as class skills the magical skills Aeromancy, Geomancy, Hidromancy and Piromancy.

Then I have other feats such as Electromancy that give additional powers.

And finally there are the normal metamagic feats and Item creation Feats.

On regards to the magical objets, all permanent magical objets work as always. Staffs give a focus skill bonus to some magical skills or give virtual feats as long as they are held.

If you want another system that uses WP/VP, and uses skills and feats as a magic system look at the Shadowforce Archer (http://www.shadowforcearcher.com/rpg/products.html) capaign book from AEG Entertaintment
ogral1
06-21-05, 06:21 AM Thanks a lot guys for some great ideas and places to start looking. Mankyle, I really like what you are doing. It seems very close to the initial idea I had. I would love to take a closer look at your system if you don't mind.
the_one_true_shea
06-21-05, 12:57 PM Spells as skills

The spells are not spells per se, they are magical skills:
Aeromancy
GeoMancy
Hidromancy
Piromancy
(These area all elemental manipulation skills)

Sensiblity
(This skills lets you feel and perceive the magic flowing in everything)

Clarisintience
Intuition
(These are divination skills. The first lets you see other thing in other places, much like scrying. The second gives you a bonus on many skill scheks)

Conjuration
(Teleportation, monster invocation and some other uses)

Energy Channeling
(This is an exlusive skill for clerics which governs healing, and Turn/Command Undead)

Telepathy
Ilusion
(These are mentalism skills)

Animism(This is a skills which only affects natural creatures with INT scores of 4 or less. Affects plants and animals only)

There are some other skills (nigromancy, spiritualism,....) But are not fixed yet.

Then I have other feats such as Electromancy that give additional powers.

Your using force stuff right? So jedi must get more skill points than sorcerers.

umm, here how about this -
AeroMancy
TerraMancy
HydroMancy
PyroMancy

DiploMancy
ChronoMancy
VivoMancy
PsycoMancy

Not extender skills in this version - just more than one DC to learn based on what skills you are using to create the spell.
Mankyle
07-04-05, 11:46 AM Sorry for not answer anyone. I was on bussiness trip for one week and a half. I don't mind posting the magic skill system but first I must translate it from spanish to english.
So far my player like it.
It is much easier for them to say: "I use my sensibility skill to sense any magic in the area" than "I cast one detect magic spell", or "I set the house on fire using pyromancy" instead of " I cast a Burning Hands on the house".
Most of the normal spell effects can be mimicked (is this word spelled like this?) with the skill system. There are, alas, some differences.

As it seems this magical system has got the interest of some people i'm going to post some other parts of the system. I get access to Internet in my office so I can't log to these boards very often. I will try to translate the full text at home and then bring it to my office to post it here.

Now I'm going to post the counterspell basic of my system.

Counterspelling
To counterspell one spell effect you must have one action readied to counter spell the magic your opponent is casting. If you succesfully identify the magic skill he/she is using, you can attempt to counterspell it.
You must do an skill check of the proper counterspelling skill.
Most magical skill are countered only by themselves (e.g. the Telepathy magic skill is only countered by himself).
Other magic skills can be countered with other magical skill.
For example, Elementalism magic skills (e. g. Pyromancy, Hydromancy,...) can also be countered with the relevant skill of the opposite element. (e.g. Pyromancy can also be countered with hidromancy, Geomancy with Aeromancy, etc...)

One exception is the Enchantment skill. The enchantment skill can be used to counterspell any other magical skill.

Counterspeling
You make an skill check against a DC equal to the result of the skill check you are trying to counterspell. If you result is higher you successfully counterspell his effect. If not, you fail.
You can counterspell any active effect. (Those with duration higher than 1 round can be counterspelled at any moment during their duration).
Regardless of the skill check result, you must pay a VP (Vitality Point) cost equal to the cost of the skill check to be counterspelled plus 3.

E.G. A red wizard of Thay uses pyromancy to throw a fireball to his enemies. The valiant elven wizard Narwil (One of the PCs of my campaign) who had readied an action to counterspell him uses Pyromancy to counterspell the evil human.
The pyromancy skill check result for the Red wizard is 23, the one for Narwil is 25. Narwil wins. His fireball explodes against that of the red wizard in a harmless rain of sparks.

I'll try to post other parts of the system ASAP, or, if you want, Ogral11, i can send it to you as soon as I have it translated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ogral1 06-15-05, 04:41 AM	I was thinking about making a system where spells would be bought like skills. Something like the Star Wars rpg has with force skills. I am basically looking for a way to have a feasible spellcasting class for a low magic campaign. Does anyone think this will work or have a source that has done something like this?
Ra-Tiel 06-15-05, 05:56 AM	Hi. === @ogral1: I was thinking about making a system where spells would be bought like skills. Something like the Star Wars rpg has with force skills. I am basically looking for a way to have a feasible spellcasting class for a low magic campaign. Does anyone think this will work or have a source that has done something like this? A system like you want hasn't been done for DnD, AFAIK, but the german rpg "Das Schwarze Auge" (also available in English as "The Black Eye") has exactly what you want. Each spell is a seperate skill, and with your role you determine how "good" you cast the spell. Learning new spells or improving known spells over certain limits costs months of study and money. The costs of improving a "spell skill" is based on your current level in that spell. If you know Earthdawn, you have a pretty good idea what the character improvement in DSA4 looks like. You have a total pool of "experience" and you buy additional ranks from that pool. Each additional rank gets more expensive, and with time you need huge ammounts of XP to increase a single skill by +1. The problem with DnD is: something like this wouldn't work. How do you determine how many skill points the wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid/bard/... get for their spells? If you give the casting classes additional skillpoints, then the non-casters will be punished even more. But you could possibly come up with something like the following: Minor Spellcasting Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 11 Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 0 of your respective list. The list you have access to depends on your character class. Special: Bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. Spellcasting Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 13 Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 1 - 3 of your respective list. You still need a key ability score of 10+spell level to cast a level of that level. You still gain access to various spell levels at the same levels as indicated in the class table in the PHb. Special: Bards gain this feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level. Clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. Rangers and paladins gain this feat as a bonus feat at 4th level. Supreme Spellcasting Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 15 Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 4 - 6 of your respective list. You still need a key ability score of 10+spell level to cast a level of that level. You still gain access to various spell levels at the same levels as indicated in the class table in the PHb. Spellcasting Mastery Prerequisite: an Int, Cha, or Wis score of 17 Benefit: You gain access to spells of level 7 - 9 of your respective list. You still need a key ability score of 10+spell level to cast a level of that level. You still gain access to various spell levels at the same levels as indicated in the class table in the PHb. If you simply must have skills, you could go with the following: Spellcasting [School] Your ranks in each of the 8 schools of magic determine your casterlevel for that school. Your casterlevel is considered to be equal to "ranks in the skill - 3". You can only cast spells for which you have sufficient ranks in the relevant skill. Instead of normal casterlevel checks you make "Spellcasting [School]" skill checks. The SR of enemies is in this system treated as "old SR+5", and you make a simple "Spellcasting [School]" skill check vs a DC of the target's SR. If you beat the DC, the spell affects the target normally, otherwise the spell fails to do so. Instead of normal concentration checks you make "Spellcasting [School]" skill checks. The DCs are the same as for the Concentration skill. For each 5 ranks you have in a single "Spellcasting [School]" skill, the Save DC vs spells from that school you cast is increased by +1. Classes with limited spells known (like the sorcerer) still must select their spells normally. But their casterlevel and other bonuses are now dependent on this skill for their spells. The feats "spell penetration" and "greater spell penetration" schould be removed when using this system, as should be "spell focus" and "greater spell focus" School spell points ("skill points that can only be spend on the "Spellcasting [School]" skills) per class: Bard: 3+Int Cleric: 4+Int Druid: 4+Int Paladin: 2+Int Ranger: 2+Int Sorcerer: 6+Int Wizard: 4+Int "Spellcasting [School]" skills per class: Bar Clr Drd Pal Rng Sor Wiz Abjuration C C C X X C C Conjuration C C C C C C C Divination C C C X X C C Enchantment C C X X X C C Evocation X C C X X C C Illusion C C X X X C C Necromancy X C C X X C C Transmutation X C C C C C C Please consider: I haven't tested any of these suggestions, they are just some quick ideas. You could possibly even combine them: making access to spell levels dependent on the feats while determining casterlevels and such by the skills. Hope that helps you. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
weasel fierce 06-15-05, 01:08 PM	For inspiration ,track down a copy of Runequest, or GURPS. For D20 related stuff, the brand new Blue Rose RPG treats spells sort of the same way, and may be easier to adapt.
the_one_true_shea 06-17-05, 11:13 AM	A system like you want hasn't been done for DnD, AFAIK, but the german rpg "Das Schwarze Auge" (also available in English as "The Black Eye") has exactly what you want. I like the spoilers Ra!! The feats echo something I have done to make magic more powerful.. I have always felt that the funky thing with magic is that you are better off at the beggining of a combat.. but at the end of combat your shot. My real responce is to give everybody spell resistance and balance casters with the ability to cast more spells. As far as spells as skills - how about "Speak Language" .. Not 8 skills - one for each school (though I have done that similarly - with a new school format, 8 ), but "Cast Spell" 1 skill point per class spell and two for cross class spells (you might want to work that up). Now the thing that intruges me the most - is the addition of dedicated skills - not too different from having fighter feats. If you remove the spell's per day option you could balance, and mirror, fighter bonus feats with caster bonus spells. OR you could leave sorcerers the same and non-spontanius casters work that way (certainly draw a sharper line between them). "Bonus Spell Skill Point" .... great idea. Also, as far as what you have actually said sound like you want a modified feat system for vancian magic - not really a skill based casting system. Perhaps if you were to delve more deeply into the concept of spell creation? and Preperation? So these would not be skill checks made when Casting but the checks made in making the spells and preparing them properly. Replace the mage Bonus metamagic feats with the Bonus Spell Skill points I mentioned. Create spell that actually give you temporary "Spell Skill Bonuses" ( call them "attune" or "focus" or something - basically a spell you cast before you go "into you magic workshop" and check your skills), and allow a sorcerer to change spells known as described. Either caster type can make a spell based off a difficulty - determined by the number of metamagic - like - adjustments you give it. Refer to Epic spell seeds for the "big version" of this idea. Actually refer to the epic spell seeds for losts of good ideas related to adaptable magic.
Mankyle 06-20-05, 04:11 AM	Spells as skills I have, with the aid of one of my players, devised a modification of the Force system from the SW RPG, and taking some inspiration from the Fifth Age Magica system. We are using the WP/VP variant hitpoint system. I have created two new basic classes: revised sorcerer and revised cleric. These two classes are built around two feats: Initiate and Arcane Heritage(which let you choose a variety of basic magical Feats) The spells are not spells per se, they are magical skills: Aeromancy GeoMancy Hidromancy Piromancy (These area all elemental manipulation skills) Sensiblity (This skills lets you feel and perceive the magic flowing in everything) Clarisintience Intuition (These are divination skills. The first lets you see other thing in other places, much like scrying. The second gives you a bonus on many skill scheks) Conjuration (Teleportation, monster invocation and some other uses) Energy Channeling (This is an exlusive skill for clerics which governs healing, and Turn/Command Undead) Telepathy Ilusion (These are mentalism skills) Animism(This is a skills which only affects natural creatures with INT scores of 4 or less. Affects plants and animals only) There are some other skills (nigromancy, spiritualism,....) But are not fixed yet. Then I have some Basic Magical Feats, which let you learn magical skills as class skills, for example the following: Basic Elementalism This feats lets you learn as class skills the magical skills Aeromancy, Geomancy, Hidromancy and Piromancy. Then I have other feats such as Electromancy that give additional powers. And finally there are the normal metamagic feats and Item creation Feats. On regards to the magical objets, all permanent magical objets work as always. Staffs give a focus skill bonus to some magical skills or give virtual feats as long as they are held. If you want another system that uses WP/VP, and uses skills and feats as a magic system look at the Shadowforce Archer (http://www.shadowforcearcher.com/rpg/products.html) capaign book from AEG Entertaintment
ogral1 06-21-05, 06:21 AM	Thanks a lot guys for some great ideas and places to start looking. Mankyle, I really like what you are doing. It seems very close to the initial idea I had. I would love to take a closer look at your system if you don't mind.
the_one_true_shea 06-21-05, 12:57 PM	Spells as skills The spells are not spells per se, they are magical skills: Aeromancy GeoMancy Hidromancy Piromancy (These area all elemental manipulation skills) Sensiblity (This skills lets you feel and perceive the magic flowing in everything) Clarisintience Intuition (These are divination skills. The first lets you see other thing in other places, much like scrying. The second gives you a bonus on many skill scheks) Conjuration (Teleportation, monster invocation and some other uses) Energy Channeling (This is an exlusive skill for clerics which governs healing, and Turn/Command Undead) Telepathy Ilusion (These are mentalism skills) Animism(This is a skills which only affects natural creatures with INT scores of 4 or less. Affects plants and animals only) There are some other skills (nigromancy, spiritualism,....) But are not fixed yet. Then I have other feats such as Electromancy that give additional powers. Your using force stuff right? So jedi must get more skill points than sorcerers. umm, here how about this - AeroMancy TerraMancy HydroMancy PyroMancy DiploMancy ChronoMancy VivoMancy PsycoMancy Not extender skills in this version - just more than one DC to learn based on what skills you are using to create the spell.
Mankyle 07-04-05, 11:46 AM	Sorry for not answer anyone. I was on bussiness trip for one week and a half. I don't mind posting the magic skill system but first I must translate it from spanish to english. So far my player like it. It is much easier for them to say: "I use my sensibility skill to sense any magic in the area" than "I cast one detect magic spell", or "I set the house on fire using pyromancy" instead of " I cast a Burning Hands on the house". Most of the normal spell effects can be mimicked (is this word spelled like this?) with the skill system. There are, alas, some differences. As it seems this magical system has got the interest of some people i'm going to post some other parts of the system. I get access to Internet in my office so I can't log to these boards very often. I will try to translate the full text at home and then bring it to my office to post it here. Now I'm going to post the counterspell basic of my system. Counterspelling To counterspell one spell effect you must have one action readied to counter spell the magic your opponent is casting. If you succesfully identify the magic skill he/she is using, you can attempt to counterspell it. You must do an skill check of the proper counterspelling skill. Most magical skill are countered only by themselves (e.g. the Telepathy magic skill is only countered by himself). Other magic skills can be countered with other magical skill. For example, Elementalism magic skills (e. g. Pyromancy, Hydromancy,...) can also be countered with the relevant skill of the opposite element. (e.g. Pyromancy can also be countered with hidromancy, Geomancy with Aeromancy, etc...) One exception is the Enchantment skill. The enchantment skill can be used to counterspell any other magical skill. Counterspeling You make an skill check against a DC equal to the result of the skill check you are trying to counterspell. If you result is higher you successfully counterspell his effect. If not, you fail. You can counterspell any active effect. (Those with duration higher than 1 round can be counterspelled at any moment during their duration). Regardless of the skill check result, you must pay a VP (Vitality Point) cost equal to the cost of the skill check to be counterspelled plus 3. E.G. A red wizard of Thay uses pyromancy to throw a fireball to his enemies. The valiant elven wizard Narwil (One of the PCs of my campaign) who had readied an action to counterspell him uses Pyromancy to counterspell the evil human. The pyromancy skill check result for the Red wizard is 23, the one for Narwil is 25. Narwil wins. His fireball explodes against that of the red wizard in a harmless rain of sparks. I'll try to post other parts of the system ASAP, or, if you want, Ogral11, i can send it to you as soon as I have it translated.