Standard Point Buy and Racial Modifiers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Standard Point Buy and Racial Modifiers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wolfkiller
06-07-05, 05:18 PM I'm thinking of incorporating the Standard Point Buy method for generating ability scores for PCs in my games. I want to make character creation less random and allow my players to design their characters as they wish without constantly rerolling dice until they get a score they're happy with. What do you guys think of this method and do racial modifiers to ability scores still apply?
Kintaran
06-07-05, 06:44 PM Yes, racial ability modifiers still apply. How it works is so: You assign your points first, and get a set of base ability scores. Then this base is modified by race. So it costs the same number of points for an elf to have 17 Dex as it does for a human to have 15 Dex.

As for the point buy method, I dislike it somewhat because the numbers you get are worse than average rolls. Most characters should get at least one 16 if they throw the dice for it, and this counts even such results as 16, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3. So of all playable sets of stats, 16s are even more frequent, yet the so-called 'elite' array does not have one. Despite this, point buy is a fair way to do things, to keep the one player who rolled godly stats compared to the rest from dominating the game or otherwise being irritating. I tend to favor a higher point buy, and I usually go with, say, 31. Mostly because I like prime numbers, and the presence of that extra odd point keeps all ability scores from being even at generation. That does happen a lot, since you get the most value from your points by doing so.
krichaiushii
06-07-05, 08:17 PM Point buy is nice, but I have found that I tend to place an odd number in stats I plan to raise with levelling - simply to see an immediate gain at 4th level.

My PCs are fractionally weaker than others, but this method makes me feel good.
Dave Stebbins
06-07-05, 08:53 PM Since my groups create characters outside of game nights, I really like the point buy method. It puts everyone on an equal footing and allows for the character build people want (outside of unrealistic or campaign-busting expectations). It also prevents people who want an advantage from rolling until they get a super character or not bothering and just giving their character super stats.
jaerad
06-07-05, 09:51 PM I really like point buy for the obvious benefit that it keeps all players within the same power levels. Basically, luck is cool and all, but I'd rather not have a "crappier" character because I was unlucky the day we rolled up. Point buy makes things fairly even. Granted, it does tend to make all your stats even - but hey, they'll have odd ones as soon as they get some points to play with.

However, I extremely dislike scaling point buys. I think it's ridiculous. The whole item stems from the notion that characters will make their weaknesses in things that "don't matter." For a lot of classes, there are no dump stats. Even take the fighter [not just Fighter, but any stand up melee class]. You'll probably want Int for Combat Ex, don't want a low Wis because of poor save and charm-type spells, STR/DEX/CON all tend to be important. Most people think that you can treat CHA like a dump stat, but I think those people don't understand what CHA really does. Most "heroes" have a very nice CHA. Low CHA means that you have a poor "force of personality." This means that you do not stand out in conversation, you do not tend to get your way, etc etc. See the posts on Str for Intimidate if you want some examples of CHA in action. You have to treat CHA as every bit as important to a fighter as DEX is.

Anyways, with scaling point buys you get double shafted by having low scores. Anything below 14 costs 1 point, so it doesn't matter if you lower your CHA to 3, you only get 5 points out of it. And it costs 6 points to go from 16 > 18. That means that horribly crippling your character in one ability is not enough to make another shine. Basically, I see it as double costing. You have to pay a lot for high points, and low points don't really help. Basically, with scaling point buys you're much better off MADing no matter what class you have.

Personally, if I want a 8 DEX 6 CHA Dwarven Fighter, I know that I've got some penalties. These are serious problems that I'm gonna have to work around. I mean, sheez. I'd rather drop my DEX down and raise that CHA up - since with things like Stone Warden I have less and less use for DEX, while CHA is a big factor [provided your DM actually makes you stick to it]. If all I get from that is barely enough to get me one more point in STR, then why bother? Why not jack it up to 12 or so and get some +s? MADing is fine and all, but even if you aren't dependant on multiple stats, you're still a sucker to have anything low.

With a 28pt (scaling) point buy you can be a Dwarven Fighter with 16 STR, 6 DEX, 18 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 8 CHA. 6 DEX, 8 CHA. Those are poor scores. Granted, you have a nice STR/CON, and decent INT/WIS, but you really don't gain much by having so much devoted to STR/CON. You're much better off sacrificing +1 to each of those to net you 8 more points, which is enough you jack you up to 14 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 12 CHA. No penalties, and pluses in things that you don't *really* need. Who cares that you wanted to play an iconic "non-agile" Dwarf, you're much better min/maxed to avoid penalties.

With a non-scaling point buy, using 28 pts again, you can have 18 STR, 6 DEX, 20 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA. Now that -2 to DEX is really offset by the heafty +4 and +5s to STR/CON. Even with Stone Warden CON > AC, you still have low initiative, reflex saves, and skill penalties. You're paying for those extra points. If I want to have low scores in order to teeter-totter the balance - I shouldn't have to sigh every time I look at my character sheet and go "Man, those +1s were so not worth my lowsy <insert poor ability here>."
StevenO
06-07-05, 11:17 PM Anyways, with scaling point buys you get double shafted by having low scores. Anything below 14 costs 1 point, so it doesn't matter if you lower your CHA to 3, you only get 5 points out of it. And it costs 6 points to go from 16 > 18. That means that horribly crippling your character in one ability is not enough to make another shine. Basically, I see it as double costing. You have to pay a lot for high points, and low points don't really help. Basically, with scaling point buys you're much better off MADing no matter what class you have.

Personally, if I want a 8 DEX 6 CHA Dwarven Fighter, I know that I've got some penalties. These are serious problems that I'm gonna have to work around. I mean, sheez. I'd rather drop my DEX down and raise that CHA up - since with things like Stone Warden I have less and less use for DEX, while CHA is a big factor [provided your DM actually makes you stick to it]. If all I get from that is barely enough to get me one more point in STR, then why bother? Why not jack it up to 12 or so and get some +s? MADing is fine and all, but even if you aren't dependant on multiple stats, you're still a sucker to have anything low.

With a 28pt (scaling) point buy you can be a Dwarven Fighter with 16 STR, 6 DEX, 18 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 8 CHA. 6 DEX, 8 CHA. Those are poor scores. Granted, you have a nice STR/CON, and decent INT/WIS, but you really don't gain much by having so much devoted to STR/CON. You're much better off sacrificing +1 to each of those to net you 8 more points, which is enough you jack you up to 14 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 12 CHA. No penalties, and pluses in things that you don't *really* need. Who cares that you wanted to play an iconic "non-agile" Dwarf, you're much better min/maxed to avoid penalties.

With a non-scaling point buy, using 28 pts again, you can have 18 STR, 6 DEX, 20 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA. Now that -2 to DEX is really offset by the heafty +4 and +5s to STR/CON. Even with Stone Warden CON > AC, you still have low initiative, reflex saves, and skill penalties. You're paying for those extra points. If I want to have low scores in order to teeter-totter the balance - I shouldn't have to sigh every time I look at my character sheet and go "Man, those +1s were so not worth my lowsy <insert poor ability here>."

Just a reminder but point buy only lets you drop under 8 after racial mods. I assume you are using a dwarf varient in these examples to meet that requirement. A reason for only allowing minor penalties is that many players have a hard time actually RPing low scores and people with large deficiencies probably wouldn't take up adventuring for one reason or another. Abilities higher than 14 aren't equally balanced by low scores thus scaling becomes very important. As for wasting points on high abilities, placing a 15 in a stat before mods is often a good idea as it will let you get the most out of level based stat increases. Except for Int most scores don't matter when you get them but excessive Strength early in a characters life does offer a substancial short term benefit with reguards to character power.
jaerad
06-08-05, 12:01 AM Just a reminder but point buy only lets you drop under 8 after racial mods. I assume you are using a dwarf varient in these examples to meet that requirement.

Oh ya. Well, you should be able to have scores lower than 8 if you want. I mean, that's only slightly below an "average" score. Aside from that, IMO point buy is just a way to "cap" rolling. It gives you a maximum power level. If you can get 6s rolling, you should be able to buy them. Just my opinion of course.

A reason for only allowing minor penalties is that many players have a hard time actually RPing low scores

Irrelevant. Plus, a good DM should enforce all the rules.

and people with large deficiencies probably wouldn't take up adventuring for one reason or another.

Actually, I strongly disagree with this. Maybe their weaknesses is what drove them to adventure. Regardless, this is a RP consideration and as such can be adequately covered with a good backstory

Abilities higher than 14 aren't equally balanced by low scores thus scaling becomes very important.

This is the contention of the game designers that I do not agree with. A penalty is a penalty. A good DM should send you varied enough challenges such that some are met with your strengths and others play on your weaknesses. If no one in your party bothers with Diplomacy, and your DM doesn't use that against you, it's not the rules' fault.

If you can show me how it is that a +3 to STR is not adequately compensated for by -1 to DEX and -2 to CHA, I will conceide. I admit that I am new to the rules, but from what I have gathered so far - this contention is mostly based on poor following of the rules and/or focusing only on combat. If you really make that -2 CHA count, then it does hurt a lot.

As for wasting points on high abilities, placing a 15 in a stat before mods is often a good idea as it will let you get the most out of level based stat increases. Except for Int most scores don't matter when you get them but excessive Strength early in a characters life does offer a substancial short term benefit with reguards to character power.

The +1 you would get at level 4 (from having a 15) is possibly worth the +1 you could have had to another stat (costs 2 points which could have raised a low stat up a tier).

Part of the problem is MADing. A Wizard can pretty much ignore STR. They don't have to carry much, they shouldn't be in melee, etc. But there really isn't any stat that a fighter can ignore (at least not to the degree of STR for a Wizzy). Specializing breeds weakness, so choosing STR > CHA is a weakness that the fighter must contend with. But when you scale the point buy, you are doubling that weakness (in that it is no longer as valueable).

As said by the designers, this is the intention. Players will emphasize their strengths and avoid their weaknesses. But a good DM should sometimes capitalize on their weaknesses and avoid their strengths, simply to shake things up. Basically, I disagree with the designers. I think that penalties do equal bonuses. This is because I feel that both should come up with regularity.

If you play solely "kick in the door" then sure, for the most part you can ignore CHA. But then again, you can also ignore Diplomacy, certain Knowledges, a host of feats, etc. If you do allow these in to a moderate degree, then having a penalized force of personality makes you a rather lousy hero. Maybe you'll be a great warrior, but no one will remember you. Even if you best a hero, they'll remember him more than you.
jaerad
06-08-05, 12:22 AM Bah, knew I shoudn't have tried to re-send before checking to see if I posted.
Wolfkiller
06-13-05, 03:27 PM I want to thank everyone for your advice and comments. Having read them all and after taking a look at the system as presented in the DMG, I've tweaked it slightly to suit my particular tastes and wanted an opinion on it.

I adjusted the point pool to 30. All abilities start at 8, adjusted by race, and higher scores are purchased 1 for 1 from 9 to 14, and 2 for 1 from 14 to 18. Scores of 19 and higher cannot be purchased using this method.

As I said, a slight tweak of the Point Buy method. I've basically standardised the cost of the higher ability scores, as I really saw no need for the continued scaling of costs after 14. I also increased the point pool marginally. The PCs are supposed to be elite and I find that about 30 points generates what I consider to be elite stats: One exceptional ability, several above average abilities, and a couple of average or below average.

What do you think? Doable? Broken? More or less points?
Wolfkiller
06-13-05, 03:32 PM I want to thank everyone for your advice and comments. Having read them all and after taking a look at the system as presented in the DMG, I've tweaked it slightly to suit my particular tastes and wanted an opinion on it.

I adjusted the point pool to 30. All abilities start at 8, adjusted by race, and higher scores are purchased 1 for 1 from 9 to 14, and 2 for 1 from 14 to 18. Scores of 19 and higher cannot be purchased using this method.

As I said, a slight tweak of the Point Buy method. I've basically standardised the cost of the higher ability scores, as I really saw no need for the continued scaling of costs after 14. I also increased the point pool marginally. The PCs are supposed to be elite and I find that about 30 points generates what I consider to be elite stats: One exceptional ability, several above average abilities, and a couple of average or below average.

What do you think? Doable? Broken? More or less points?
Kintaran
06-13-05, 06:22 PM Pretty nice. I think I might actually use that setup myself.
jaerad
06-15-05, 04:53 PM All abilities start at 8, adjusted by race, and higher scores are purchased 1 for 1 from 9 to 14, and 2 for 1 from 14 to 18. Scores of 19 and higher cannot be purchased using this method.

Why don't you apply racial mods at the end like normal PB, letting you get 19-20? Is there any way of going below 8 w/o racial mods? If I want a dwarven fighter with 6 DEX, am I outta luck?
Wolfkiller
06-15-05, 10:15 PM You really don't have to. I see no reason why applying it before or after makes any difference, other than that the bonuses could easily push a score above 18. But since you can't do that with the point-buy method, it makes no difference. Either way, you still pay more for your weak stats and less for your strong ones. I think it makes more sense to do it first since you already know what race you'll be playing and what it's strengths and weaknesses are. Add and subtract the modifiers to the baseline scores and then start adding points.

The DMG description of the method says that all PCs start with baseline scores of 8 in all abilities, which I assume is meant to create elite PCs at the least cost. You could change that if you wish, but it'll cost more to improve scores. A 16 Dex for a human would cost 12 pts instead of 10 pts if I did it that way. On average we'd end up with characters that were less elite than we'd like.

Which isn't to say you couldn't play average PCs or even below average PCs. Lower baselines would be fine if that's what you're planning and there really isn't anything wrong with doing it that way, other than the fact that your points won't go as far. Or you could leave the baseline alone and say that a player who wants his character to be really clumsy or crippled could subtract points from the score if he desires, gaining 1 or 2 extra points to redistribute elsewhere. I wouldn't go lower than 6 as characters really aren't playable with stats below that and tend to represent people who really can't function well by themselves without a great deal of assistance.
jaerad
06-15-05, 11:44 PM Ya, 6 is about as low as I'd play, especially if another score was 18 or something. But I don't see anything wrong with taking scores from 6-8. That's not that far below average.
Saitou
06-16-05, 03:09 AM 30 is Powered with capital P. I give my PCs 28, and just cause they whined so much I nearly killed them.

For my d20 modern, I gave them 25, but that's a different story.
Ellanon
06-16-05, 03:24 AM I see no reason why applying it before or after makes any difference, other than that the bonuses could easily push a score above 18. But since you can't do that with the point-buy method, it makes no difference.
It does make a difference because you can do that with the Standard Point-Buy method.

However, in order to even get a 19 or 20 in one stat requires you to really dump the other stats.
Standard Point Buy (25)
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

If you change the 15 to an 18...
18, 14, 11, 8, 8, 8
...you have to drop the stats on 3 of the other scores.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wolfkiller 06-07-05, 05:18 PM	I'm thinking of incorporating the Standard Point Buy method for generating ability scores for PCs in my games. I want to make character creation less random and allow my players to design their characters as they wish without constantly rerolling dice until they get a score they're happy with. What do you guys think of this method and do racial modifiers to ability scores still apply?
Kintaran 06-07-05, 06:44 PM	Yes, racial ability modifiers still apply. How it works is so: You assign your points first, and get a set of base ability scores. Then this base is modified by race. So it costs the same number of points for an elf to have 17 Dex as it does for a human to have 15 Dex. As for the point buy method, I dislike it somewhat because the numbers you get are worse than average rolls. Most characters should get at least one 16 if they throw the dice for it, and this counts even such results as 16, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3. So of all playable sets of stats, 16s are even more frequent, yet the so-called 'elite' array does not have one. Despite this, point buy is a fair way to do things, to keep the one player who rolled godly stats compared to the rest from dominating the game or otherwise being irritating. I tend to favor a higher point buy, and I usually go with, say, 31. Mostly because I like prime numbers, and the presence of that extra odd point keeps all ability scores from being even at generation. That does happen a lot, since you get the most value from your points by doing so.
krichaiushii 06-07-05, 08:17 PM	Point buy is nice, but I have found that I tend to place an odd number in stats I plan to raise with levelling - simply to see an immediate gain at 4th level. My PCs are fractionally weaker than others, but this method makes me feel good.
Dave Stebbins 06-07-05, 08:53 PM	Since my groups create characters outside of game nights, I really like the point buy method. It puts everyone on an equal footing and allows for the character build people want (outside of unrealistic or campaign-busting expectations). It also prevents people who want an advantage from rolling until they get a super character or not bothering and just giving their character super stats.
jaerad 06-07-05, 09:51 PM	I really like point buy for the obvious benefit that it keeps all players within the same power levels. Basically, luck is cool and all, but I'd rather not have a "crappier" character because I was unlucky the day we rolled up. Point buy makes things fairly even. Granted, it does tend to make all your stats even - but hey, they'll have odd ones as soon as they get some points to play with. However, I extremely dislike scaling point buys. I think it's ridiculous. The whole item stems from the notion that characters will make their weaknesses in things that "don't matter." For a lot of classes, there are no dump stats. Even take the fighter [not just Fighter, but any stand up melee class]. You'll probably want Int for Combat Ex, don't want a low Wis because of poor save and charm-type spells, STR/DEX/CON all tend to be important. Most people think that you can treat CHA like a dump stat, but I think those people don't understand what CHA really does. Most "heroes" have a very nice CHA. Low CHA means that you have a poor "force of personality." This means that you do not stand out in conversation, you do not tend to get your way, etc etc. See the posts on Str for Intimidate if you want some examples of CHA in action. You have to treat CHA as every bit as important to a fighter as DEX is. Anyways, with scaling point buys you get double shafted by having low scores. Anything below 14 costs 1 point, so it doesn't matter if you lower your CHA to 3, you only get 5 points out of it. And it costs 6 points to go from 16 > 18. That means that horribly crippling your character in one ability is not enough to make another shine. Basically, I see it as double costing. You have to pay a lot for high points, and low points don't really help. Basically, with scaling point buys you're much better off MADing no matter what class you have. Personally, if I want a 8 DEX 6 CHA Dwarven Fighter, I know that I've got some penalties. These are serious problems that I'm gonna have to work around. I mean, sheez. I'd rather drop my DEX down and raise that CHA up - since with things like Stone Warden I have less and less use for DEX, while CHA is a big factor [provided your DM actually makes you stick to it]. If all I get from that is barely enough to get me one more point in STR, then why bother? Why not jack it up to 12 or so and get some +s? MADing is fine and all, but even if you aren't dependant on multiple stats, you're still a sucker to have anything low. With a 28pt (scaling) point buy you can be a Dwarven Fighter with 16 STR, 6 DEX, 18 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 8 CHA. 6 DEX, 8 CHA. Those are poor scores. Granted, you have a nice STR/CON, and decent INT/WIS, but you really don't gain much by having so much devoted to STR/CON. You're much better off sacrificing +1 to each of those to net you 8 more points, which is enough you jack you up to 14 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 12 CHA. No penalties, and pluses in things that you don't really need. Who cares that you wanted to play an iconic "non-agile" Dwarf, you're much better min/maxed to avoid penalties. With a non-scaling point buy, using 28 pts again, you can have 18 STR, 6 DEX, 20 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA. Now that -2 to DEX is really offset by the heafty +4 and +5s to STR/CON. Even with Stone Warden CON > AC, you still have low initiative, reflex saves, and skill penalties. You're paying for those extra points. If I want to have low scores in order to teeter-totter the balance - I shouldn't have to sigh every time I look at my character sheet and go "Man, those +1s were so not worth my lowsy <insert poor ability here>."
StevenO 06-07-05, 11:17 PM	Anyways, with scaling point buys you get double shafted by having low scores. Anything below 14 costs 1 point, so it doesn't matter if you lower your CHA to 3, you only get 5 points out of it. And it costs 6 points to go from 16 > 18. That means that horribly crippling your character in one ability is not enough to make another shine. Basically, I see it as double costing. You have to pay a lot for high points, and low points don't really help. Basically, with scaling point buys you're much better off MADing no matter what class you have. Personally, if I want a 8 DEX 6 CHA Dwarven Fighter, I know that I've got some penalties. These are serious problems that I'm gonna have to work around. I mean, sheez. I'd rather drop my DEX down and raise that CHA up - since with things like Stone Warden I have less and less use for DEX, while CHA is a big factor [provided your DM actually makes you stick to it]. If all I get from that is barely enough to get me one more point in STR, then why bother? Why not jack it up to 12 or so and get some +s? MADing is fine and all, but even if you aren't dependant on multiple stats, you're still a sucker to have anything low. With a 28pt (scaling) point buy you can be a Dwarven Fighter with 16 STR, 6 DEX, 18 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 8 CHA. 6 DEX, 8 CHA. Those are poor scores. Granted, you have a nice STR/CON, and decent INT/WIS, but you really don't gain much by having so much devoted to STR/CON. You're much better off sacrificing +1 to each of those to net you 8 more points, which is enough you jack you up to 14 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, and 12 CHA. No penalties, and pluses in things that you don't really need. Who cares that you wanted to play an iconic "non-agile" Dwarf, you're much better min/maxed to avoid penalties. With a non-scaling point buy, using 28 pts again, you can have 18 STR, 6 DEX, 20 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA. Now that -2 to DEX is really offset by the heafty +4 and +5s to STR/CON. Even with Stone Warden CON > AC, you still have low initiative, reflex saves, and skill penalties. You're paying for those extra points. If I want to have low scores in order to teeter-totter the balance - I shouldn't have to sigh every time I look at my character sheet and go "Man, those +1s were so not worth my lowsy <insert poor ability here>." Just a reminder but point buy only lets you drop under 8 after racial mods. I assume you are using a dwarf varient in these examples to meet that requirement. A reason for only allowing minor penalties is that many players have a hard time actually RPing low scores and people with large deficiencies probably wouldn't take up adventuring for one reason or another. Abilities higher than 14 aren't equally balanced by low scores thus scaling becomes very important. As for wasting points on high abilities, placing a 15 in a stat before mods is often a good idea as it will let you get the most out of level based stat increases. Except for Int most scores don't matter when you get them but excessive Strength early in a characters life does offer a substancial short term benefit with reguards to character power.
jaerad 06-08-05, 12:01 AM	Just a reminder but point buy only lets you drop under 8 after racial mods. I assume you are using a dwarf varient in these examples to meet that requirement. Oh ya. Well, you should be able to have scores lower than 8 if you want. I mean, that's only slightly below an "average" score. Aside from that, IMO point buy is just a way to "cap" rolling. It gives you a maximum power level. If you can get 6s rolling, you should be able to buy them. Just my opinion of course. A reason for only allowing minor penalties is that many players have a hard time actually RPing low scores Irrelevant. Plus, a good DM should enforce all the rules. and people with large deficiencies probably wouldn't take up adventuring for one reason or another. Actually, I strongly disagree with this. Maybe their weaknesses is what drove them to adventure. Regardless, this is a RP consideration and as such can be adequately covered with a good backstory Abilities higher than 14 aren't equally balanced by low scores thus scaling becomes very important. This is the contention of the game designers that I do not agree with. A penalty is a penalty. A good DM should send you varied enough challenges such that some are met with your strengths and others play on your weaknesses. If no one in your party bothers with Diplomacy, and your DM doesn't use that against you, it's not the rules' fault. If you can show me how it is that a +3 to STR is not adequately compensated for by -1 to DEX and -2 to CHA, I will conceide. I admit that I am new to the rules, but from what I have gathered so far - this contention is mostly based on poor following of the rules and/or focusing only on combat. If you really make that -2 CHA count, then it does hurt a lot. As for wasting points on high abilities, placing a 15 in a stat before mods is often a good idea as it will let you get the most out of level based stat increases. Except for Int most scores don't matter when you get them but excessive Strength early in a characters life does offer a substancial short term benefit with reguards to character power. The +1 you would get at level 4 (from having a 15) is possibly worth the +1 you could have had to another stat (costs 2 points which could have raised a low stat up a tier). Part of the problem is MADing. A Wizard can pretty much ignore STR. They don't have to carry much, they shouldn't be in melee, etc. But there really isn't any stat that a fighter can ignore (at least not to the degree of STR for a Wizzy). Specializing breeds weakness, so choosing STR > CHA is a weakness that the fighter must contend with. But when you scale the point buy, you are doubling that weakness (in that it is no longer as valueable). As said by the designers, this is the intention. Players will emphasize their strengths and avoid their weaknesses. But a good DM should sometimes capitalize on their weaknesses and avoid their strengths, simply to shake things up. Basically, I disagree with the designers. I think that penalties do equal bonuses. This is because I feel that both should come up with regularity. If you play solely "kick in the door" then sure, for the most part you can ignore CHA. But then again, you can also ignore Diplomacy, certain Knowledges, a host of feats, etc. If you do allow these in to a moderate degree, then having a penalized force of personality makes you a rather lousy hero. Maybe you'll be a great warrior, but no one will remember you. Even if you best a hero, they'll remember him more than you.
jaerad 06-08-05, 12:22 AM	Bah, knew I shoudn't have tried to re-send before checking to see if I posted.
Wolfkiller 06-13-05, 03:27 PM	I want to thank everyone for your advice and comments. Having read them all and after taking a look at the system as presented in the DMG, I've tweaked it slightly to suit my particular tastes and wanted an opinion on it. I adjusted the point pool to 30. All abilities start at 8, adjusted by race, and higher scores are purchased 1 for 1 from 9 to 14, and 2 for 1 from 14 to 18. Scores of 19 and higher cannot be purchased using this method. As I said, a slight tweak of the Point Buy method. I've basically standardised the cost of the higher ability scores, as I really saw no need for the continued scaling of costs after 14. I also increased the point pool marginally. The PCs are supposed to be elite and I find that about 30 points generates what I consider to be elite stats: One exceptional ability, several above average abilities, and a couple of average or below average. What do you think? Doable? Broken? More or less points?
Wolfkiller 06-13-05, 03:32 PM	I want to thank everyone for your advice and comments. Having read them all and after taking a look at the system as presented in the DMG, I've tweaked it slightly to suit my particular tastes and wanted an opinion on it. I adjusted the point pool to 30. All abilities start at 8, adjusted by race, and higher scores are purchased 1 for 1 from 9 to 14, and 2 for 1 from 14 to 18. Scores of 19 and higher cannot be purchased using this method. As I said, a slight tweak of the Point Buy method. I've basically standardised the cost of the higher ability scores, as I really saw no need for the continued scaling of costs after 14. I also increased the point pool marginally. The PCs are supposed to be elite and I find that about 30 points generates what I consider to be elite stats: One exceptional ability, several above average abilities, and a couple of average or below average. What do you think? Doable? Broken? More or less points?
Kintaran 06-13-05, 06:22 PM	Pretty nice. I think I might actually use that setup myself.
jaerad 06-15-05, 04:53 PM	All abilities start at 8, adjusted by race, and higher scores are purchased 1 for 1 from 9 to 14, and 2 for 1 from 14 to 18. Scores of 19 and higher cannot be purchased using this method. Why don't you apply racial mods at the end like normal PB, letting you get 19-20? Is there any way of going below 8 w/o racial mods? If I want a dwarven fighter with 6 DEX, am I outta luck?
Wolfkiller 06-15-05, 10:15 PM	You really don't have to. I see no reason why applying it before or after makes any difference, other than that the bonuses could easily push a score above 18. But since you can't do that with the point-buy method, it makes no difference. Either way, you still pay more for your weak stats and less for your strong ones. I think it makes more sense to do it first since you already know what race you'll be playing and what it's strengths and weaknesses are. Add and subtract the modifiers to the baseline scores and then start adding points. The DMG description of the method says that all PCs start with baseline scores of 8 in all abilities, which I assume is meant to create elite PCs at the least cost. You could change that if you wish, but it'll cost more to improve scores. A 16 Dex for a human would cost 12 pts instead of 10 pts if I did it that way. On average we'd end up with characters that were less elite than we'd like. Which isn't to say you couldn't play average PCs or even below average PCs. Lower baselines would be fine if that's what you're planning and there really isn't anything wrong with doing it that way, other than the fact that your points won't go as far. Or you could leave the baseline alone and say that a player who wants his character to be really clumsy or crippled could subtract points from the score if he desires, gaining 1 or 2 extra points to redistribute elsewhere. I wouldn't go lower than 6 as characters really aren't playable with stats below that and tend to represent people who really can't function well by themselves without a great deal of assistance.
jaerad 06-15-05, 11:44 PM	Ya, 6 is about as low as I'd play, especially if another score was 18 or something. But I don't see anything wrong with taking scores from 6-8. That's not that far below average.
Saitou 06-16-05, 03:09 AM	30 is Powered with capital P. I give my PCs 28, and just cause they whined so much I nearly killed them. For my d20 modern, I gave them 25, but that's a different story.
Ellanon 06-16-05, 03:24 AM	I see no reason why applying it before or after makes any difference, other than that the bonuses could easily push a score above 18. But since you can't do that with the point-buy method, it makes no difference. It does make a difference because you can do that with the Standard Point-Buy method. However, in order to even get a 19 or 20 in one stat requires you to really dump the other stats. Standard Point Buy (25) 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 If you change the 15 to an 18... 18, 14, 11, 8, 8, 8 ...you have to drop the stats on 3 of the other scores.