Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kadeity 07-11-07, 12:16 PM	if youve had a chance to check out the new starwars edition of rules...it changes alot of things to make it more interesting. In place of armor class and saves they use "defenses" which are essentially like your saves. Theres reflex, will and fortitude. whenever someone attacks you, you make a defense check of the type that the attack is. for example a force power prompts a will defense check. a blaster shot prompts a reflex defense check. there is no ac. only opposed rolls. also, the armor is damage reduction. which makes more sense to me. moreover, the whole system is more streamlined, like a marriage of d20 modern and dnd. there are only 5 core classes, all of which have a bonus feat every other level, and a talent at each of the dead levels. then it uses talent trees like d20 modern does. its beautiful really. so i was wondering if anyone had looked at it, and if anyone else was thinking about tweaking dnd and playtesting with the new rules?
JoAT 07-11-07, 12:57 PM	It's on my to-do list. I've got a stack of other stuff first, but it's on there.
Quade 07-11-07, 01:25 PM	It sounds like they just coppied from from Green Ronin's True 20/Mutants & Masterminds rules. That is exactly how they do damage and it works great. And yes it works fine for fantasy and D+D. Green Ronin has already released some of their Fantasy adventures under the True 20 rules.
legophreak 07-11-07, 07:31 PM	It's seems to be too easy to me, but then i enjoy my complexity in games. One of the things that bothered me is the diagonal move counts as 2-2-2-2 instead of before where it was 1-2-1-2. It's done for simplicity, but not very realistic i don't think. The other being that Initiative is now a skill. I did enjoy the merging of some skills. Like Spot and Listen is now Perception (Wis). and Hide and Move Silently is now Stealth (Dex) IIRC. Makes perfect sense to me. Haven't read too much more beyond that.
Shado 07-12-07, 03:21 AM	I believe movement is one of the first things most people house rule. (I just choose to use hexes.) Defenses aren't opposed rolls (though you could easily make them opposed.) Basically, AC is now your Reflex save, and saves are like AC in that it's a static number that serves as the DC of an "attack" roll. Some armor provides a bit of DR, but most give Reflex and Fortitude bonuses. Initiative as a skill isn't too far off from the existing system. Basically, skills are all d20 rolls modified by a stat. Initiative's the same way... only currently, you can't put ranks into it. Why not? True, in the D&D system, the skill point system gives it the wrong feel, but the trained/untrained system of Saga makes it fit very well. Currently, it's this oddity that sits outside of skills in a category all it's own. There's a lot of ideas that I feel would be very nice in the D&D system. More generic classes. Feats and Talents every other level to eliminate dead levels. Individuals defined more by the Talent & Feat combinations chosen. No multi-classing restrictions. Design theories that help to prevent DC creep. Balanced per-encounter instead of 4 encounters per day. AC and saves rolled into Defenses, some skill consolidation, feat designs... Now some of the numbers are bit off for D&D... +1 to all defenses every level is too much. Armor needs to be more important than it is in Saga (I think UA's DR system would fit well.) Bonus damage and the loss of multi-attacks without feats would need tweaking for D&D. Magic would need to be rebuilt from the ground up... Force power design wouldn't work as is... Currently, I'm most interested in converting Modern over to the Saga system. Though I would expect 4e to walk a path similar in thought to Saga.
Steely_Dan 07-12-07, 03:50 AM	I've already implemented the following changes from Saga into my fortnightly D&D campaign (Planescape) and everyone loves it: -Withdraw is a move action. -Charge is a standard action. -No 5 ft. step. -No critical confirmation rolls or threat ranges. -Half character level as bonus to damage. -No iterative attacks (replaced with feats such as Double Attack, Triple Attack, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack etc). -The skill system. -2 x Str bonus when wielding a weapon 2-handed. -Darkvision and low-light vision rules. We also use the UA variants for Saving Throws as Defences, and Magic Checks instead of DC's for spells.
Ranger REG 07-12-07, 04:07 AM	One of the things that bothered me is the diagonal move counts as 2-2-2-2 instead of before where it was 1-2-1-2. It's done for simplicity, but not very realistic i don't think. Perhaps, but I can understand why. Sometimes you don't move true diagonal (45 degrees), especially if the target of your charge attack is not on your NW or NE or SW or SE heading (compass headings). If you move N+NE+N+NE+N+N+NE+NE, then you have moved 1+1+1+2+1+1+1+2 = 10 squares.
starfire311 07-12-07, 11:33 PM	Perhaps, but I can understand why. Sometimes you don't move true diagonal (45 degrees), especially if the target of your charge attack is not on your NW or NE or SW or SE heading (compass headings). If you move N+NE+N+NE+N+N+NE+NE, then you have moved 1+1+1+2+1+1+1+2 = 10 squares. yes and 10 squares is a closer approximation of the distance moved than if you count 2 for each diagonal and call it 12 squares. if you were to calculate the real distance in this case would be ~9 squares, the 10 that using the DnD method gives you is much closer than the 12 using the saga system.
Ranger REG 07-13-07, 02:31 AM	yes and 10 squares is a closer approximation of the distance moved than if you count 2 for each diagonal and call it 12 squares. Ah, but can you keep track at the game? Remember, every odd diagonal squares are 1's and every even diagonal squares are 2's. And there is no reset if you move into straight squares between two diagonals.
mshea 07-13-07, 08:19 AM	Steely, I like your house rules a lot. Do you have Attacks of Opportunity or do you remove them for the withdrawal action?
kadeity 07-13-07, 09:15 AM	maybe the rules might even be good for running a fantasy game usign them as is. i mean, use dnd races, take out the lightsabers, tweak some names for flavor... really it wouldnt be a ton of work.
Kursk 07-13-07, 12:06 PM	In place of armor class and saves they use "defenses" which are essentially like your saves. Theres reflex, will and fortitude. whenever someone attacks you, you make a defense check of the type that the attack is. for example a force power prompts a will defense check. a blaster shot prompts a reflex defense check. I've played RPGs in the distant past that used this type system. Slows down combat. Surprised they resurrected this failed system.
Raiden Drake 07-13-07, 01:14 PM	I've played RPGs in the distant past that used this type system. Slows down combat. Surprised they resurrected this failed system. I don't know about other RPG's but after some play testing it seems to speed up combat and is easier to calculate. Defenses in Saga are calculated this way: 10 + 1/2 character level + stat modifier + misc. This is a static number, more like three of them. Reflex defense: use dex mod, is used for evading explosions and attacks. Fortitude defense: use con mod, is used for resisting poison, diseases and the like. So poisons and diseases have to do a poison check with a predetermined bonus. This number is also use to calculate damage threshold. Will defense: use wis mod, obviously this is the DC used to affect your mind mostly with force powers. Saga has very little things that modify defense besides stats and level, the first is each class just for taking a level in it give you bonus to some of your defenses; this is a static bonus that do not increase with the time, usually +1 or +2 (some prestige classes have higher bonuses). An other thing that modify defenses is armor; this is how it work: Each armor has three stats a reflex defense score, a fortitude defense bonus and a max dex bonus (the last one is exactly the same as in 3.5) When you use armor your reflex defense is calculated differently: 10 + armor reflex defense score + dex mod + misc. But you get a misc bonus in you fortitude defense. So at high levels you are trading resistance to poison and the like, for a bit of evasion, although there are armor that has up to 9 reflex defense score. Also the soldier class has talents that allow him to keep adding half its class level to their defenses, by adding only half the reflex score of the armor. Now this may seem complicated at first but in reality is very straightforward, and you need a lot less book keeping. I been thinking of implement defenses in my D&D games: this is how is going to work: Defenses are calculated: 10 + stat mod + misc -Armor and natural armor give you bonus to your reflex defense as if it was AC and half the bonus to fortitude. -Abilities like the monk ac only apply to your reflex defense. -cover, deflection, dodge bonuses and the like only apply to reflex. -any thing that give you bonus to your reflex save apply to your reflex defense now, same for each of the other defenses. -bonuses to will saves that depend on the effect are now permanent. EX. +2 versus enchantment now become +2 permanent to your will defense. -spells use a spell check d20 + spell level + casting stat mod + misc, to "attack" a defense. Class bonuses: fighter: +2 to fort, +1 to reflex ranger: +2 reflex, +1 fortitude rogue: +2 reflex, +1 will monk: +1 to all defenses paladin: +2 fortitude, +1 will druid: +2 will, +1 reflex cleric: +2 will, +1 fortitude wizard: +2 will, +1 fortitude sorcerer: +2 will +1 reflex bard: +1 to all defenses barbarian: +2 fortitude, +1 will I still need to play test but this is how I'm going to start.
Kursk 07-13-07, 01:22 PM	I don't know about other RPG's but after some play testing it seems to speed up combat and is easier to calculate. Defenses in Saga are calculated this way: 10 + 1/2 character level + stat modifier + misc. ... Oh, I thought there was an opposed roll involved by the person being attacked.
Alex_ 07-13-07, 01:31 PM	The skill based magic system of SW: Saga Edition could probably best be done with the Truename or Pact magic It would also help put Martial Characters and Spellcasters on a more even playing field.
SilvercatMoonpaw 07-13-07, 05:30 PM	Interestingly Saga's 1/2-level + class bonus for defenses work out as the same as a Good save bonus progression on a class. But 1/2-level is actually more powerful then a poor progression. So all classes get a slight boost.
Raiden Drake 07-13-07, 05:37 PM	Interestingly Saga's 1/2-level + class bonus for defenses work out as the same as a Good save bonus progression on a class. But 1/2-level is actually more powerful then a poor progression. So all classes get a slight boost. Just remember that defenses work a bit more like AC than saves and most abilities are based around this
Rustmonster 07-14-07, 10:01 AM	The one problem that I've heard of (although I havn't played Saga, want to try it out) is that the game is too heavily geared towards wearing no armour, which doesn't fit with D&D for the most part. It's kinda useless to wear armour if you keep getting hit because your max dex is so low. It's better off avoiding blows then reducing damage. The armoured fighter will be an iniffective choice, as they will get hit every time, and DR doesn't help against magic anyway.
Raiden Drake 07-14-07, 10:55 AM	The one problem that I've heard of (although I havn't played Saga, want to try it out) is that the game is too heavily geared towards wearing no armour, which doesn't fit with D&D for the most part. It's kinda useless to wear armour if you keep getting hit because your max dex is so low. It's better off avoiding blows then reducing damage. The armoured fighter will be an iniffective choice, as they will get hit every time, and DR doesn't help against magic anyway. This i s true in Saga only the soldier is encouraged to use armor because its talents, but some modifications to the defenses rules allows for encouraging using armor for other characters, as I did in my post above.
SilvercatMoonpaw 07-14-07, 11:32 AM	Star Wars is definitely more about swashbuckling then traditional D&D. The Saga rule is likely based on a similar concept proposed for D&D: Class Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). As you can see from here there are some reasons why such a class bonus would be beneficial to a character (casters and light armor wearers). Saga's main problem, as I see it, is that it still has the old abstraction of armor making one harder to hit rather than reducing damage. If armor were made completely into damage reduction then there would be a clear reason why someone might choose armor over no armor (you may be easier to hit, but you are less likely to take damage).
Eater_Of_Souls 07-14-07, 01:56 PM	If you like defence system you might also like to check the system that Wheel of time uses. It also has a defence value that goes up with levels, but heres the catch: only one class can get bonus from armor and defence bonus (armsman), rest get either armor or defence bonus but not both. Other great change is the magic system, you still have spells but you can attempt to over channel (cast a more powerful spell then your level would normally allow) a failure means you might lose your entire spellcasting ability or even your life or both depending how badly you mess up the check. Otherwise system is pretty much the same as in vanilla D&D but there is no male casters only female ones (in game reasons read the books to know why) and no separate spells for arcane/divine spells. So far my group has liked the setting and haven't read the books so I don't have to worry about messing up time line or some minor details from the books :king:
unundindur 07-15-07, 09:37 AM	After what I can see these changes are all part of my Realia system, although it also incorporates more stuff... dang.. :/
Ranger REG 07-16-07, 01:33 AM	Saga's main problem, as I see it, is that it still has the old abstraction of armor making one harder to hit rather than reducing damage. If armor were made completely into damage reduction then there would be a clear reason why someone might choose armor over no armor (you may be easier to hit, but you are less likely to take damage). Not a problem for Dungeons & Dragons. And I still don't see it as a problem. If an armor can cover 100% of your body, then it can have a damage reduction value. If not, then there are exposed or weak area that your attacker can hit and inflict full damage. You really think a chainmail bikini should have a damage reduction value? That comic art from Dragonmirth is just a joke.
taski 07-16-07, 03:04 AM	Not a problem for Dungeons & Dragons. And I still don't see it as a problem. If an armor can cover 100% of your body, then it can have a damage reduction value. If not, then there are exposed or weak area that your attacker can hit and inflict full damage. That does make sense for armor like leather armor and chainmail. However, full plate with a helmet really does cover 95% of the body, with the missing 5% being the inside part of the arms (which is covered in chainmail). You'd have a hard time hitting the weak spots there, when you could just hit the huge breastplate with a very strong hit. Not all of your damage will go through, but with a hard enough hit, you'll do some damage, without the need for landing a precise blow. Sure, it's a tactic more for power attacking barbarians than rogues or swashbucklers, but it is a valid tactic in our world. Probably the most realistic armor system would allow for both weak spots and DR... but I admit that would mean a higher degree of complication, which is generally bad for playability. Actually, maybe it wouldn't be that bad. Players could choose to either: go for the "weak spot" and hit against their opponent's AC with the armor bonus to get full damage; or hit the armor itself and ignore the armor bonus to AC, but their damage gets penalized by the armor's DR. Hmm... You really think a chainmail bikini should have a damage reduction value? It shouldn't have an AC bonus, either. It's just bad armor. --- But none of that has to do with Saga Edition. I'd be interested in seeing a conversion of it to all the elements of D&D, especially magic.
Steely_Dan 07-16-07, 03:34 AM	-Steely, I like your house rules a lot. -Do you have Attacks of Opportunity or do you remove them for the withdrawal action? -Thanks. -AoO still exist. When you use the withdraw action, the square you start in is considered non-threatened, if after that square you move through a threatened square you will provoke an AoO as normal.
Steely_Dan 07-16-07, 03:39 AM	Interestingly Saga's 1/2-level + class bonus for defenses work out as the same as a Good save bonus progression on a class. It's actually 10 + CL (not half) + ability modifier + class bonus (+1 to +3). So a 20th level Saga character will have at least a 30 in all Defences before ability and class modifiers.
Cheza 07-22-07, 10:54 AM	I think it's just a transformation of names. The normal DnD AC is just a value. Name it and scale it as you wish... it doesn't change the compexity. I use a similar system for a long time (even before Saga was printed) and it works VERY well. Step 1: Use a level dependant defense bonus to AC. If you choose 1/2 class level, you will see a equivalence between good reflex saves and touch AC (both increase with 1/2 class level). You can notice that spells use either reflex saves (area effect spells) or touch AC (targeted), so both aren't very different. Step 2: Sum them up as one ability.:P