Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tarrius 01-22-07, 02:43 PM	As a DM and a player, I have tired of the traditional 4d6 or 58 point buy stat rolling method that has been implemented by our group since it's conception three years ago. As a DM, I have found that my characters tend to get unbelievably high stats, often with their lowest stat being an 11 or 12, with at least one natural 18. I have found that this really hurts a party's teamwork dynamic. The characters are all very independent, an there is very little actual dependency on other party members to get through a tough situation. It also creates a seperation between the character and the player. Players seem less connected to their characters when the character is just an all around bad ass. As a player, my favorite character I have ever played was an elven ranger with 5 charisma. Not only was he my favorite character and the character I really connected the most with, but the teamwork dynamic we had in our party (my ranger and a very charismatic bard) was the best I've ever seen in any of the games our group has played. So, with that long ass introduction out of the way, I have devised a system for stats that I have implemented in several of my campaigns as a DM that I believe has worked incredibly well at solving these problems. The system works in this way: the players roll 3d6 for each of their stats. Then they have 10 points to add to those stats, provided they don't bring anything about 18 before racial modifiers. This method seems to work really great because it allows for at least one 18 in their stats, but also almost always guarantees at least one negative stat, and not just a 9, but generally a 5-7. Now for those power gamers out there, they will hate this system. But for people who are truly interested in creating a unique character with a unique personality, this system works great. I just wanted everyone's opinion on this.
Melayl 01-22-07, 02:55 PM	Doesn't sound bad. If it has been working for your groups, then that's great. Personally, I haven't had that problem with group dynamic with my players, even with higher stats (I do a 3d6, drop the lowest and add 8 -- it works for us...). I do applaud you for your solution to your problem, though.
FoxmanFX 01-22-07, 03:01 PM	Other solutions including using an array, lower point buy's, alternate rolling methods, etc. - Havent tried this method but it looks cool: Roll 3d6, take the highest, reroll the other two, take the highest of the two, reroll last dice take its result. but again as mentioned above its to taste :)
Reversefigure4 01-22-07, 05:13 PM	But for people who are truly interested in creating a unique character with a unique personality, this system works great. I just wanted everyone's opinion on this. Well, are your players going to love it? Will having a 5 somehow encourage them to make a unique character with a unique personality, or will it just result in them going "damn, now I have -3 to Diplomacy"? Bad stats do not automatically equal an interesting character. And a 58 Point Buy? Why not try a smaller point buy?
Tarrius 01-22-07, 06:01 PM	My players really enjoy it. It gives them a lot more direction with their character's personality. And I chose to do this instead of a lower point buy because I didn't want to remove the element of randomness that comes with rolling dice completely. It seems to me a merging of both worlds, the complete control you have over your character's stats while still having the exciting part of the random dice rolls.
Melpomene 01-22-07, 10:11 PM	Remember kids: getting 18 on 4d6-drop-the-lowest is a DC 18 Sleight-of-Hand check. Most of your players have at least a +6 modifier.
Krusk 01-22-07, 10:38 PM	Your 58 point buy method could be responsible for your group generally having increadibly high stats. But your method does seem to be pretty decent. Another similar method, each stat starts at 8, roll 1d10 and arrange as you wish. Gives a much more even spread of scores. This method also works with 6+1d12 or 10+1d8 ect, depending on what you want the minimum stat to be. your method seems like it would create balanced characters, if the players were willing to actually take what they get on 3d6, but most players will reroll a one or a total of 5 or less when creating a character.
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-22-07, 11:19 PM	Sort of related, but I just find it interesting how players tend to complain about things they don't use. So your wizard has 7 STR? Big deal. Regarding the original method, it does sound interesting. But if you want to mix elements of randomness and control, how abou giving your players a point buy system, and they get 20 + 2d6 points?
Tarrius 01-23-07, 12:18 AM	All these methods sound really interesting. The 8 + 1d10, arrange as you wish method seems pretty cool, the only issue I can see with that one is that you're guaranteed lowest stat is a 9, meaning you'll almost always have every stat with a +0 or higher modifier (most likely higher). In this 3d6 + 10 points method, there is no rerolling the individual dice. In response to the 20 + 2d6 points, it puts a lot less emphasis on the randomness of the dice rolls and more on the authority of the player. As far as my players liking it, the entire group has adopted the system, even if I'm not DM'ing. I'd be curious if anyone else like this system and tested it out, just to see how it works outside of my isolated group.
kadeity 01-23-07, 12:51 AM	COLUMN As a dm, ive been using what i call the "column method" for a while. Basically you roll 4d6, drop the lowest. You do this 12 times, making two vertical columns of six numbers. Then you take the highest of the two numbers that are side by side. for example. you roll 4d6 six times ,dropping the loswest, and get... 12 10 8 15 14 9 then you roll 4d6 dropping the lowest, six times, again... but this time you write the numbers next to the old ones. 12-8 10-15 8-9 15-15 14-12 9-17 so you take the highest from each row. 12, 15, 9, 15, 14, 17 Generally my players get fair stats...and no negatives... but thats sort of what your origional problem was huh? IRON MAN the other option is what we call iron man. We dont come to the table with any idea of what were gonna play. In fact we usually, when using this method, ONLY make characters the first meeting....or we just run a marathon game. Anyway, heres how it works. Roll 4d6, drop the lowest. Do that six times. The order you got your rolls is the order they go on the sheet. so if you got 12, 10, 11, 15, 9, 10 then you got 12 STR,10 CON, 11 DEX, 15 INT, 9 WIS, & 10 CHA. it forces players to pick different character roles than they usually do. Sometimes players arent very fond of this rolling method, so i suggest being sure the players are all ok with it.
Arcade 01-23-07, 09:10 AM	As an addition to the Iron Man, a former DM did the same, but he gave you another roll which you could use to replace any one roll you chose. In addition, you could switch any two rolls you wanted. I've tried a few different techniques here and there. Currently, I'm leaning towards use the standard 4d6 rolls, but then point buy to the average of your rolls and the game power level (say 30 points). This may mean anyone who rolls better than the game power level may need to reduce their stats, but they'll still end up more powerful than the average character. This helps average out everyone's stats, gives some customization, and still reward someone who rolled very well. And if you can't decide on a power level when you start, just take the average of everyone's starting rolls and make that the average.
Archangel62 01-23-07, 10:59 AM	A lot of it is tactics, in my games players tend to have very high stats yet they also depend on each other to get through encounters because I use opponents that can think, will use tactics, and can do anything the PCs can do and more.
FoxmanFX 01-23-07, 11:11 AM	Over the years I've come to favor any method that allows all the same players to be on an "even footing" such as point buying. Nothing like listening to a player whine about thier stats and how low they are and how weak they are compaired to thier friend who rolled 2 18's a 17 and a 16... and thier highest stat is a 16.... Really I find its the players that roll TOO well that throw out the balance of the game ;) I've also run games where players get 30+2d4 build points....
Zumarai 01-23-07, 12:11 PM	To the OP – I hear you. I'm thinking of implementing a 22-Point Buy for my next campaign. …Hell, maybe I'll go for the gold and go for 15-Point Buy.
Tarrius 01-23-07, 02:53 PM	With the 22 point buy/15 point buy, what does everyone's stats start out as? Because with our 58 point buy system, all the player's stats started at a 3, not counting racial modifiers, so if the points were distributed evenly, you could have 5 13's and an 11. 22/15 seems rediculously too low for this type of stat buy system that we've been using. Another point I'd like to make. This system was not meant so that the player's have AVERAGE stats/characters. It's meant so that the players are exceptional at what they're good at, hence the one, MAYBE two 18's. It just attempts to make characters good at what they're supposed to be good at, and bad at what they're supposed to be bad at.
Krusk 01-23-07, 04:35 PM	standard point buy starts at 8. which again brings up the problem of having an 8 be your minimum.
ShinoAburame 01-23-07, 05:11 PM	This method also works with 6+1d12 or 10+1d8 ect, depending on what you want the minimum stat to be. Also that way there's a reason to have d12s and d8s at the table. Really, how often are they used? But the d12 seems the best, that way there's a likely chance you could have a really crappy score. With the d8 you're garanteed to never have a negative score, and the d10 version is less risky then the d12 version.
Krusk 01-24-07, 01:25 AM	Problem with the d12 method, though. You are just as likely to have all 7's as you are to have all 18's. Which is not good for party balance.
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-24-07, 01:52 AM	Problem with the d12 method, though. You are just as likely to have all 7's as you are to have all 18's. Which is not good for party balance. Indeed. Linear probability vs. bell curve probability. For randomization, I simply prefer the bell curve probability given by three dice. I'd be inclined to vote for rolling 3d4 and adding 6.
Krusk 01-24-07, 01:57 PM	3d4+6 was my first thought o balance it out too. But that brings back initiatal problem of no score less than 9. not sure yet how to fix.
Tarrius 01-24-07, 02:58 PM	Ok, most of these stat rolling systems seem pretty solid. The original suggestion I posted does several things that, in my opinion solve any issues with all the old rolling systems. First off, it works on a bell curve because you're rolling three dice. Not only does this ensure that you're never going to get REALLY screwed and end up with 6 3's. You're just as likely to get an 18 as you are to get a 3. Second, because you're rolling 3 d6's, you're never going to get a stat below 3. Third, as I mentioned earlier, the lowest stat you can have is a 3, giving you a wider range of ability scores. Finally, the player will almost always have at least one 18 (because of the overall 10 points). This allows for them to be exceptional at what they're supposed to be good at, while at the same time they won't be good at EVERYTHING. So let's say you roll out your stats using this method: 11 13 11 4 10 15 After you distribute 10 points, you could have: 18 (15+3) 16 (13+3) 13 (11+2) 11 10 6 (4+2) This is the kind of stat array I'm really going for with this system. Let's say you're playing a Scout. Str: 13 + 1 Dex: 18 + 4 Con: 11 + 0 Wis: 16 + 3 Int: 10 + 0 Cha: 6 - 2 He's got the Dex for sneaking, hunting, shooting. High wisdom for his Wisdom based skills, Survival etc. And a moderate Str, so he's not useless in hand to hand combat. Scout's don't really need Constitution. You could flip the Intelligence for wisdom if you wanted more skills, and a negative Charisma because Scout's don't really need it, now do they? This build makes a scout who's good at what he does, whereas things like Constitution and Charisma just aren't things that are necessary to a Scout, making him dependant on the front row fighter class in the party and the Bard/Paladin to deal with the diplomacy.
Krusk 01-24-07, 04:56 PM	One thing i just now noticed about your method. It is standard unaltered PHB method for stats with free bonus 10 points to add in.
Tarrius 01-24-07, 07:42 PM	Oh wow, seriously? That's surprising. Well then.
Krusk 01-25-07, 12:49 AM	standard PHB rolling method. 3d6 6 times. I dont remember if you can arrange or not.
bestone 01-25-07, 09:12 AM	standard PHB rolling method. 3d6 6 times. I dont remember if you can arrange or not. I believe the phb says 4d6 does it not? The good ole days of 2ndE said 3d6, which is the method i prefer myself I just find my players have incredible luck with 4d6, its rare i see a negative modifier, and common to see 18's
Zumarai 01-25-07, 09:22 AM	I just find my players have incredible luck with 4d6, its rare i see a negative modifier, and common to see 18's Yeah, that's the problem with rolling – players conveniently seem to "roll" nothing under a 14. "Hey, check it out; I rolled these!" …Yeah right.
starfire311 01-25-07, 09:45 AM	With the 22 point buy/15 point buy, what does everyone's stats start out as? Because with our 58 point buy system, all the player's stats started at a 3, not counting racial modifiers, so if the points were distributed evenly, you could have 5 13's and an 11. 22/15 seems rediculously too low for this type of stat buy system that we've been using. I am going to assume that you have never looked in teh DMG to see what the variant die rolling methods are, or else you would know waht point buy is. Anyway here is how it works, start with X points ussually 22-32. I am currently playing in a 25 PB game most people usually use 28 I think. you buy your 6 stats with these points at teh following cost stat---Cost 8------0 9------1 10-----2 11-----3 12-----4 13-----5 14-----6 15-----8 16-----10 17-----13 18-----16 So if I want an 18 in a stat, in a 25 PB game I will only have 9 points to spend on the rest of my stats, it is extremely rare to see an 18 using PB, I never even see a 17, before racial mods. 16s are pretty common though.
Zumarai 01-25-07, 09:51 AM	it is extremely rare to see an 18 using PB, I never even see a 17, before racial mods. 16s are pretty common though. Well, everyone knows that in 3rd edition 16 is the new 18.
Tarrius 01-25-07, 11:31 AM	Do most DM's really have that big of an issue with their players cheating? We only have one person in our group cheat, and it's pretty blatantly obvious - the whole group refuses to play D&D with him anymore. I've never encountered any of my players actively cheating (they might accidentally forget the rules to a spell, but it's never intentional). Cheating in D&D is maybe the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, but hey, whatever. In response to the comment about me not know what point buy is... I know perfectly well what point buy is - OUR system of point buy, and I understand the concept. And that point buy system you laid out starfire doesn't solve my original problem - of having your lowest possible stat be an 8.
Sphyre 01-25-07, 01:24 PM	I like it! It's very much like my rolling system in terms of random but controlled. I might try it out in the future. Edit: I just ran a few trial tests. I rolled 5 sets of stats. One was pretty good, 2 were terrible, and the other two were around the elite array. I rolled a 4 as the lowest of all rolls (and it had some 5s-8s to accompany it) The problem is, with your system, randomness still can kill your character's stats. Someone who rolls really well still will be really good, and someone who rolls terribly still will suck. I might suggest using what I use to help out my system: it's a concept called contingency points. For your system you might need to declare a number, but in my system it's dependant on a few other factors. For example, you might want to have 6 contingency points. (In fact, someone who rolls 3d6 in my system gets 6 contingency points.) Whenever you use a contingency point, it boosts a score, based on what that score is: Score Boost 3-7 +3 8-14 +2 15-17 +1 Old Score New Score Mod Increase 3 6 +2 4 7 +1 5 8 +2 6 9 +1 7 10 +2 8 10 +1 9 11 +1 10 12 +1 11 13 +1 12 14 +1 13 15 +1 14 16 +1 15 16 +1 16 17 +0 17 18 +1 Obviously, the lower you roll, the better the benefit of your contingency points. This helps even it out, while also giving people the ability to get the high scores they want, if they want them. If you rolled all low, your contingency points will then be worth more than the person who rolled high. You can use 2 contingency points on a score of 5 if you want. The first one boosts it to 8, and the second boosts it to 10. or you can put all 6 of your contingency points into a 7 or 8 and get an 18.
EternalZzyx 01-25-07, 01:49 PM	When I implement point-buy (which is a lot now, its convenient when we don't have much session time, it can all be done before hand without me there) I allow you to take a score lower than 8, buying back points on a one for-one-basis. (this is how I interpret the DMG, as it says that anything below 14 is on a one-for-one) does anyone else read it like this?
Sphyre 01-25-07, 02:06 PM	When I implement point-buy (which is a lot now, its convenient when we don't have much session time, it can all be done before hand without me there) I allow you to take a score lower than 8, buying back points on a one for-one-basis. (this is how I interpret the DMG, as it says that anything below 14 is on a one-for-one) does anyone else read it like this? It specifically has to be allowed by the DM, but yes. I'll be joining a game next month that allows you to go down below 8, down to 6, for more points. The reprocussions of having a score below 8 (like a 1 cha) might just be another way to minmax for that character - but if the player never uses it as a disadvantage (except for the cases of say... cha drain/damage) then it's just giving that player more points because cha doesn't power his class abilities.
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-25-07, 08:12 PM	When I implement point-buy (which is a lot now, its convenient when we don't have much session time, it can all be done before hand without me there) I allow you to take a score lower than 8, buying back points on a one for-one-basis. (this is how I interpret the DMG, as it says that anything below 14 is on a one-for-one) does anyone else read it like this? Interestingly enough, I once experimented with giving my players 40 points and having all their stats start at 6, as opposed to giving them my usual 28 and having all their stats start at 8. However, every single player spent at least 2 points in every stat, rendering the extra option I opened up irrelevant.
starfire311 01-25-07, 11:58 PM	Interestingly enough, I once experimented with giving my players 40 points and having all their stats start at 6, as opposed to giving them my usual 28 and having all their stats start at 8. However, every single player spent at least 2 points in every stat, rendering the extra option I opened up irrelevant. Interesting, I have been tempted to start them at all 3s with PB and give them 58 points instead of 28, just to see how it would turn out, if suddenly having a 5 or a 6 looks a lot more attractive from a slightly different perspective.
psiphre 01-30-07, 01:50 PM	I might suggest using what I use to help out my system: it's a concept called contingency points. (cut for length) I really like your contingency points idea.
Sphyre 01-30-07, 04:28 PM	I really like your contingency points idea. I finally took the time to retype out the whole system and put it back on the boards. If you're interested hop on over to it.
WinterPsionic 01-30-07, 05:27 PM	I don't mean to be rude but if your party can't maintain a decent dynamic because there over powered then maybe they should try something like WoW or Everquest, P&P D&D really isn't there thing. Twisting there arm to make it so only proves the point. I've played in several campaigns and with the "standard" 4D6 drop the lowest I typically manage 1-2 18's and a cascading effect from there, usually I pull one 6-8 and the rest tend to avarge between 10 and 15 and even when I had a rogue with 18 Dex and Int, or a Fighter/PrC(Can't recall which ones) starting with 18 Str and Con I still managed the party dynamic, I'd purposely forget to buy a "full set" of potions, or I'd purposely put a few to many points into power attack so that one Kobold Spearman could poke me for a whole 4-6 dmg. Granted this is me "luring" the party to form a dynamic it helped, even when we didn't need it. Even if you started a party with 2 18, 2 16s and 2 14 (or higher) this shouldn't alter there dynamic, perhaps the degree of the dynamic but it should still be there.... Just my thoughts.... Back to the subject at hand however another thing I'd do is I'd quiz the players with multpile choice questions each with point allotments towards particular stats and after 8-12 questions I'd tell them the numbers they get and let them assign them as they wish, they always seemed to enjoy it, even the poor shmuck who purposely tried to break the system and ended up with nothing above a 12(and only 1 of them as well).
ShinoAburame 01-31-07, 11:09 PM	Roll 3d6 six times, keep results. If that's too extreme, re-roll all 1s.
Taureus_Drakken 02-05-07, 02:12 AM	Since I mainly run high-power campaigns, I have come up with the following rolling method: Roll 5d6, rerolling 1s and 2s, and dropping the lowest 2 dice. (wash, rinse, repeat 6x) Dont ask me why I do this, it just seems like a good method for my DMing style.
Krusk 02-05-07, 11:17 AM	reroll 1 and 2? wow im your campaign must be high powered. Here are my sample stats. 14, 13, 18, 16, 17, 11 thats a lot lower than i was expecting but still really high. I also decided to randomly roll the 1d12+6 and 1d8+10 methods, just to see. Also did 3d6 +10 to add as i see fit. 3d6+10 11,8,15,5,10,8 +10 for a final 13,8,18,10,10,10 Seems to work decently enough 1d12+6 13,15,17,11,15,18. Seems as averaged as the high powered guys. Maybe my d12 is slanted, but this method can produce some really high stats. 1d8+10 15,13,18,16,14,11. Almost as high. Same as above. So as im running these ideas for the 1dX+Y they seem to give a player higher stats, averaging about 14 or so. Not a good idea for someone wanting a lower stat game.
pukunui 02-07-07, 10:46 PM	I, too, was looking for a new ability score generation method after using the 5d6, drop 2 method for a while ... one that would be more fair (although not necessarily balanced). I started a thread of my own on the topic, and in the end, I decided on a method suggested by StoneStokes. Basically, you roll 4d6 three times. You then add up the total point cost for those three rolls (for this purpose, any score of 8 or below is worth 0 points) and subtract from your total point buy pool (I've been using 36 points). You then take the remainder and generate the remaining three scores as per the normal point buy rules. I've found this to generate consistently varied characters. It almost always allows for at least one natural 18 plus some negatives, with most of the stats in the mid-range. You can also try different combos: rolling 4 and buying 2, for instance, although this seems to work better with lower point pools than 36 (the higher you go in points, the fewer rolls you should make, it seems). Also, if a player happens to roll well enough that his rolled scores are worth more than the total number of points, then he doesn't get to alter the "bought" scores. They just stay at 8.
Sleepwalker13666 02-07-07, 10:58 PM	In my game you role 4d6, rerole 1s take top 3, or you can do 5d6 take top 3. Most opt for the 4d6. But then in my game the monsters are as min-maxed as the players. With the exception of random encounters I add 1d4 to the monsters stats (since a standard write up is an average monster), lastly even in random encounters I give monsters 75% of thier max hp instead of 50%