Post/Author/DateTime	Post
molten_dragon 11-07-07, 12:00 PM	This has been edited due to some points brought up here I have been working on the idea of a strain based spellcasting system for awhile and have come up with this (somewhat inspired by Jim Butcher's Dresden Files books). What do you think, is it too powerful, not powerful enough, just right, or something else entirely. Strain-Based Spellcasting System This is an attempt to create a strain based spellcasting system. In this system, using magic is as taxing to the mind as hard labor or physical combat is to the body. This is modeled by giving each spellcaster a strain limit, and giving spells a strain cost. Strain Limit and Strain Score A character’s ability to withstand the strain of casting spells is modeled by a strain limit and a strain score. The strain limit is based both on the character’s inherent mental toughness and their experience. For classes with a full nine-level spellcasting progression (sorcerer, wizard, cleric, druid, etc.) the character’s strain limit is equal to their primary spellcasting score (charisma for sorcerers, wisdom for clerics, intelligence for wizards, etc.) plus their class level. For characters with a five or six level spellcasting progression (duskblade, bard, etc.) their strain limit is equal to their primary spellcasting score plus three-quarters of their class level. For characters with a four level spellcasting progression (paladin, ranger, etc.) their strain limit is equal to their primary spellcasting score plus half of their class level. Characters with more than one primary spellcasting stat (Favored Souls for example) use whichever stat normally determines their bonus spells. The endurance feat further increases a character’s strain limit by 3. The practiced spellcaster feat also increases a character’s strain limit by 2, but never to more than his class level. The strain score starts at zero and is based on how many spells the character has cast since the last time they rested. Strain Cost of Spells Instead of being able to cast only a certain number of spells per day of each level, spellcasters can now cast as many spells as they want per day, however, each spell has a strain cost associated with it, and spellcasters begin to get more and more tired as they cast more spells. Eventually, they could even pass out from the exertion. Spell Level_______________Strain Cost Highest level of spells______4 2nd highest level__________3 3rd highest level__________3 4th highest level__________2 5th highest level__________2 6th highest level _________1 7th highest level__________1 8th highest level__________0 9th highest level__________0 10th highest level_________0 For example, Eldath is a 7th level wizard, he knows 5 levels of spells (0-4th). His 4th level spells would have a strain cost of 4, his 2nd and 3rd level spells would have a strain cost of 3, and his 0 and 1st level spells would have a strain cost of 2. Spellcasting When using this system, all spells are cast spontaneously. Classes that normally prepare spells ahead of time, such as wizard and cleric, still do so. However, they are simply preparing that day’s list of spells known, and do not need to prepare spells multiple times. Classes that can normally convert prepared spells into other spells (such as a cleric’s spontaneous cure spells) are treated as always having those spells prepared. Classes which have some extra restricted slots (for example a cleric’s domain spell or a specialist wizard’s extra spell) still must choose an appropriate spell for that slot, but they may cast it as many times as they are able. When a character wishes to cast a spell, he simply does so and adds the strain cost of the spell to his current strain score. In order to cast a spell of a particular level, a character still must have a primary casting stat equal to or greater than 10 + the spell’s level. When a character’s strain score becomes equal to or greater than three-quarters of his strain limit (rounded down), the mental strain of his spellcasting begins to catch up to him. To reflect this he takes a -2 penalty to all mental ability scores (INT, WIS, and CHA). His bonus spells known (or prepared per day) do not change due to this, however the save DCs of his spells do, and he may lose the ability to cast his highest level spells if his primary casting stat is no longer high enough. Whe his strain score reaches his strain limit, the penalties to mental ability scores increase to -4. For example, Eldath is a 7th level wizard with a constitution of 16 and the endurance feat, this gives him a strain limit of 26. When his strain score reaches 19 he takes a -2 penalty on all mental ability scores. When it reaches 26 the penalty increases to -4. A character may attempt to continue casting spells after he has reached his strain limit, but doing so is a risky proposition. Any time a character casts a spell which causes his strain score to exceed his strain limit, he must make a will save with a DC equal to 10 + the spell level + the amount by which his strain score exceeds his strain limit. If he fails the save, he immediately falls unconscious after the spell is cast until his strain score no longer exceeds his strain limit. For example, Eldath is in the midst of a major battle and has already reached his strain limit of 26 for the day when he is charged by a troll. He is desperate to finish it off before it tears him to bits, so he decides to cast a fireball at it. This increases his strain score to 29. He now must make a DC 16 will save (10+(29-26)+3) or fall unconscious as soon as the spell is cast. Spells that only partially exceed the characters strain score are subject to the same penalty, but the save DCs are generally lower. In the example above, if Eldath had been at a strain score of 24 instead of 26 and cast a fireball, it would increase his strain score to 27, still above his strain limit. He would still have to make a will save to remain conscious, but the DC would only be 14 (10+(27-26)+3). The only way characters can reduce their strain scores is by resting. Sleep is best, but any kind of rest will help some. A character that is resting (but not sleeping) and performing no activity more strenuous than riding a horse or in a cart, lowers his strain score by 1 for each hour he rests. A character that is sleeping lowers his strain score by twice his primary spellcasting modifier for each hour of uninterrupted sleep he gets. Characters who do not need to sleep, or who need to sleep less (such as elves) still need the same amount of uninterrupted rest and quiet to reduce their strain scores. In addition to its other properties, a ring of sustenance doubles the rate at which a character reduces his strain score while sleeping (4x primary spellcasting modifier per hour of sleep). Spellcasting Foci Spellcasters can also craft foci in order to help them cast spells better. These foci help make spells cast through them more efficient, and therefore reduce the strain cost of those spells. However, spellcasting foci are expensive to create, and require the expenditure of part of the character’s life-force to bind the focus to them. A spellcaster can only use a focus that he has created himself; he may not use another spellcaster’s focus. A focus only decreases the strain cost for spells from a particular school. A spellcaster may have multiple foci, each assisting him in casting spells from a different school. These foci do not take up magic item slots. Foci are generally unique to the caster. One caster’s divination focus might be an ornate crystal ball, while another’s might be a silver mirror etched with runes. Foci have two attributes that define their effectiveness. The first is its strength. This is the highest level spell which may be cast using that focus. Trying to cast a higher level spell through a focus which is not rated for it will destroy the focus. The second attribute of the focus is the efficiency. This is the amount by which the focus reduces the strain cost of spells in its school. For example an evocation focus with strength 5 and efficiency 1 would reduce the strain cost of evocation spells up to level 5 by 1. Crafting a focus takes time, money, and part of the character’s life force to bind it to him. The price of a focus is equal to (strength)^2 x 10^efficiency x 100 gp. In a simpler form, the base cost for a focus with an efficiency of 1 is strength squared times 1000, and for each point the efficiency is raised, add an extra zero to the end of the price. A character must also spend a number of experience points equal to the cost in gold pieces divided by 50. Crafting a focus takes 1 hour per 1000 gp of the price. This time does not need to be continuous however, a character simply needs a quiet place to work without distractions, and whatever tools are necessary to craft the physical item. For example a focus with a strength of 6 and an efficiency of 2 would cost 62 x 102 x 100 or 360,000 gp, 7200 XP, and take 360 hours (or 15 days) to craft.
Slapstick87 11-07-07, 01:45 PM	With these rules the best wizard (in terms of casting the highest amount of spells) would be a body-builder. That does not fit with my image of a classical wizard. You argue that just like physical combat, casting spells is taxing on the body. I disagree. I'd say that just like physical combat is taxing on the body (getting/avoiding hit drain HP etc), use of magic is taxing on the mind. You should use the intelligence to determine how much strain a wizard can take, instead of consititution. If you want to model the magic use after physical combat, it would be more accurate (in game mechanics) to use a spell-point system. Since the system in UA is already play-tested and balanced, I would go with that, if I where you. And if I where you, you'd be me, and then you'd also go with that system. I win! :D I commend your efforts though :) - Slapstick
Rustmonster 11-07-07, 08:36 PM	Oh boy. When I get level 7 spells, I get infinite cantrips! Yay! Now I can cast infinite cure minor wounds between encounters and heal fully! And at higher spell levels, I can cast higher level heal spells and do it faster! This is the reason why you don't give spells for free.
molten_dragon 11-07-07, 08:55 PM	I thought of that, but there are several examples in WotC published material of characters being able to do infinite magical effects for no penalty (recharge magic, dragon shaman's breath weapon, warlock's eldritch blast, etc.). And if you think about it, mostly the characters go into battle fully healed anyway (at least they generally do in my games). They usually only fight 3-4 fights per day, and if the lower level spells are spread out between fights and the higher ones saved for emergencies in the midst of battle, it would really end up with about the same net effect. It would only really start to matter if you fought a lot of encounters between times that they got to rest. I see your point, but I don't really think that it's that unbalanced.
kuonji 11-08-07, 04:42 AM	Any other condition which causes a character to become fatigued also increases his strain score to ¾ his current strain limit. Any other condition which causes a character to become exhausted also increases his strain score to his full strain limit. So a 3rd level wizard spell, Ray of Exhaustion, becomes a very powerful weapon against spellcasters since, assuming no SR and you hit a touch AC, at a minimum you fatigue the target, and if they fail their save, you exhaust them. Also, how do spells such as Restoration figure into the equation. Restoration removes all fatigue/exhaustion on the target, so would a caster at max strain and exhausted just be at max strain but no longer exhausted? Would the restoration spell reset the strain count? The fatigue/exhaustion mechanic makes spells and effects which cause fatigue and exhausion overly harsh to spellcasters and does not stack well with spells that remove fatigue/exhaustion. I would suggest that a caster is either at their limit of spells cast for the day, or they aren't, the 3/4 = fatigued and full = exhausted is unnecessary. One other question about strain, what about partial overage, example: I am at 27/29 and I cast a spell that costs 3 points, how much, if any, is the fort save to cast the spell? The rules on foci seem a little crazy to me as well, since with your example, the only people likely to have useful foci are NPC spellcasters who have nothing better to do then spend a year or more crafting them. Also, you have no limits on them so is it possible to craft a strength 9, efficiency 4 foci and thus have all free spells, for one school anyway, but that's still pretty powerful? That undead spellcaster who has a few decades or centuries to kill isn't going to have a problem coming up with the time or the money necessary to build a super-focus (if undead can cast spells at all, see below). I would suggest just throwing out the whole foci thing completely. The casting stat based on Con is another problem that I see. The first thing that comes to mind is what about undead casters with no Con score? Are they incapable of casting spells, or do they get unlimited spells being that they cannot be fatigued or exhausted? At the very least I suggest having the casting be based on the normal prime casting stat (int, wis, or cha) and keep the restriction that you need to have an ability score equal to 10+spell level to cast spells of a particular level. This way prime cast traits still matter but Con still maintains some importance for casting over the limit (fort saves). Though I do agree with an above poster, I'd probably make it a will save since spellcasting is more of a mental strain then a physical one, at least in my opinion. Plus, dwarves already make pretty good wizards as it is and the idea of them ruling the arcane spell system with a Con based spellcasting mechanic seems so wrong. Edit: One last thing I forgot to mention, in this system sorcerers completely lose. Wizards will have as many or more spells known each day, 4+bonus spells on the int table, and the ability to swap out their spells known on a daily basis. Another class that loses out in the spellcasting department is the favored soul. Wow, I guess one more thing I just though of, what about domain spells, can they still only be cast once or do I get unlimited (up to full strain at least) lightning bolts or lower level firestorms or stoneskins (just a few examples)?
molten_dragon 11-08-07, 05:56 AM	Thanks for the feedback Kuonji, those are all good points. I'll definitely make some revisions based on them.
molten_dragon 11-08-07, 09:04 AM	Okay, revisions have been made. Things have been edited to reflect more of a mental strain rather than a physical one. Are the new penalties too harsh or not harsh enough or do they seem okay? Focus crafting has also been slightly changed to make them faster and easier for PCs to craft (although the costs have remained the same). I decided not to make any more restrictions on them due to the high costs associated with crafting Super-Foci. In the example Kuonji gave of an undead spellcaster casting a strength 9 efficiency 4 focus, it would take almost 10 years (even with the reduced crafting times), cost 81,000,000 gp (yes, that's million), and most importantly it would cost 1,620,000 XP. It seems likely that by the time a character could afford something like this, it wouldn't really be very powerful at all. However, if you still feel they are too powerful, you could always restrict them to make the maximum efficiency 1, and say that they cannot reduce the strain cost of a spell below 1. This would still make them useful for lowering the costs of higher level spells, but would not grant you any more spells for free. I might end up doing this myself after it is playtested some. Under the current system it would be very easy to get foci that would allow a high level caster to cast all of his spells up to 4th level for free (only 16,000 gp and 320 XP per focus), and I'm not so sure that isn't a little overpowered. Using this system does hurt sorcerers some, so I would recommend making some changes to the sorcerer class. I've used these changes when running a game using the spell point system (since this also hurts sorcerers in comparison to wizards). First, sorcerers get the eschew materials feat free at first level (actually, I always give sorcerers this feat, in any game, it just makes sense to me). Additionally they also get a bonus heritage feat at 1st level, and an additional bonus heritage feat at 5th level and each 5 levels after that. They also get to add bonus spells to their spells known based on their charisma bonus. Thanks for the great feedback, hope to hear some more.
GEEKAZOID 11-08-07, 11:27 AM	It is a great idea you have. It seems however, that this is the type of system you create first then build spells lists around it after. Unfortunately, the spells as written don't work well as you need to retro fit them to this system. So question is, do you feel like rewriting all the spells?
CrazyOzzy 11-08-07, 12:00 PM	I like it! I was about to start on a system of my own. I agree with making the save to resist unconsciousness a Will save because otherwise Undead would be able to go over the limit as much as they want. I would add some feats in game, in order to : -Increase max "strain" -Increase "strain" loss over time -Give bonus to save vs unconsciousness due to "strain" Just some examples, you could even add a feat chain. I would never allow some spells to be cast at will like invocations. It is simply too overpowering in some cases like healing spells. I like the idea of a Focus but I'm at work and it seems quite complicated and I don't have alot of time to read it lots of times. Could a Cleric's Divine Focus be used for this? I would only enforce a penalty once the "strain" limit is achieved and surpassed and not before. It should be like HP where you do not suffer any penalties before you hit 0. I think you should change the way you calculate max "strain" altogether, for different reasons. First, as mentioned before Sorcerers get shafted. Second, When using your calculations, I feel the actual numbers you get to play with are too low and cannot have enough variation. For example, your 2nd and 3rd highest spells cost both 3 "strain" and your 4th and 5th highest cost 2. Each "highest level" spell should have its own cost. Then 8,9 and 10 cost 0 which is not good like I have mentioned before. So.. for me max "strain" should be calculated based on Class + bonus for high casting stat. This would be similar to the Spell Points system in UA. This way you can simply give more base points to Sorcerers and then have your normal categories Wiz/Cleric/Druid, Bard,Ranger/Paladin, etc. Keep at it man, I'm really interested and will be following this thread closely. I'm willing to help you if you need and would be glad to do it as your system resembles very much what I wanted to do. :thumbsup:
Valoy_Muniz 11-08-07, 12:35 PM	One change I would make is the number of spell the people can prepare is the numbers from charts without the bounse from stat. This means that a wiz can change up his 4 spells per spell level but the soc has a set 6 that can not be changed.
molten_dragon 11-08-07, 01:28 PM	It is a great idea you have. It seems however, that this is the type of system you create first then build spells lists around it after. Unfortunately, the spells as written don't work well as you need to retro fit them to this system. So question is, do you feel like rewriting all the spells? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. What spells do you think don't work well? Ozzy, The point about undead being able to cast infinitely on a fort save is a good one, I guess I'll have to change that. I had planned on making some feats that affected the system, but hadn't gotten around to it yet. I explained earlier why I thought the unlimited lower level spells weren't overpowered, but you could always change it if you wanted to use the system. It also needs playtested still, so that'll give me a better feel for whether it is overpowered. I wanted stepped penalties as the strain got higher because I never liked the way the HP system worked. It just doesn't make sense to me to go from 100% effectiveness to almost 0 effectiveness instantly. I made it the way I did because it still shows some progression but isn't too complicated or too punishing. I also wanted each level of spells to have their own cost, but I couldn't think of a way to do it that didn't feel like just a tweak to the spell point system (which is not what I wanted). If I can come up with a better way to do it, I might try, but I'd like to at least playtest it as is before changing it.
Rustmonster 11-08-07, 02:43 PM	And if you think about it, mostly the characters go into battle fully healed anyway (at least they generally do in my games). This does not happen in my games, and I assume not in many other peoples games. If damage is taken in the last encounter, you may well go into the next damaged, if you don't have enough spells. After a tough battle, you shouldn't just be fine again. You should have to rest. They usually only fight 3-4 fights per day, and if the lower level spells are spread out between fights and the higher ones saved for emergencies in the midst of battle, it would really end up with about the same net effect. It would only really start to matter if you fought a lot of encounters between times that they got to rest. I see your point, but I don't really think that it's that unbalanced. Not really. Let's take a level 20 cleric, just for example. If he uses all his 2nd level spells for cure moderate wounds, he can heal an average of 19 hp 6 times before running out of spells. In your system, he can heal 19 hp on average indefinatly. If there is 1 hour between an encounter, he can heal an average of 11,400 hp to his party. In the current system, he could only heal about 114 hp before he runs out. There is a difference. Yes, he can use the higher level spells to heal his party, but then these are used for the day. In your system, even if a party member was at 1 hp out of 200, he could heal him fully for no actual cost to him in around 1 minute. He still has the high level spells. As long as he can get to a partner at negative hit points, he can heal him, because he can heal 19 hit points for free, and it will not affacet him at all. It brings some game world problems, too, such as clerics running hospitals who never run out of spells. Even if they only get free cantrips, they can heal 600 hp an hour. That means that even if you were beaten near death, they could probably have you all healed up in a few minutes. "Hey, I fell out of a 50 foot building." "That's okey, we can fix you up." *2 minutes later* "Oh, thanks! I'll be off now." Just doesn't sound right. Also, level 15 clerics can cast sanctuary infinitly. They can just touch everyone in their party, and they can just waltz through most enemies. Although this would be funny ("I... can't... seem... to... kill... you...") it shoudln't be allowed.
molten_dragon 11-08-07, 05:58 PM	I didn't mean that the characters automatically get healed after every battle. I simply meant that by the time you can cast 7th level spells, you have enough spells per day anyway that if spread out properly, you can have the party fully healed when they start most fights. Probably not every fight, but most of them. Especially once you add in potions, wands, and staffs which add more healing magic. Casting sanctuary indefinitely at level 15 isn't really that big of a deal. The target gets a will save to affect you, so the majority of creatures will be able to easily make the will save to not be affected by a 1st level spell. Of course, there might be other spells which will be easily abused and game-breaking, but I don't think either of those examples are. And if they do come up they can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, it doesn't automatically mean the system doesn't work. I don't think hospitals of infinite healing will be a real issue in-game either. 13th level NPC clerics (the lowest possible level to be able to cast any free spells) are pretty rare in my games, and mostly they are too busy to spend all their time healing every commoner that got kicked by his mule. I'm not trying to say that the system is perfect, but I would appreciate constructive criticism more than simply saying the system is broken and shouldn't be used.
Werral 11-08-07, 06:23 PM	I like this idea. My first thought is that the strain save should be a Will save - so that it's mental strain. Of course spellcasters generally have better Will than Fort saves so you might have to fiddle with the DC. It's just that a low Con wizard should be weak on HP but should still be able to be a good wizard.
Rustmonster 11-08-07, 09:45 PM	I'm not trying to say that the system is perfect, but I would appreciate constructive criticism more than simply saying the system is broken and shouldn't be used. Fine. Constructive criticism: Give a cost to ALL spell levels. Just bump the other ones up a little. Don't be afraid because it might look more like the spell point system. That isn't what your system is. It works totally differently. It's better that your system looks a tiny, tiny, insignificant amount like another system then it being broken. Did that help? I mean, I'd think that pointing out why the system is broken would be helpful, too. 11,400 hp healing per hour should not be allowed.
molten_dragon 11-09-07, 06:24 AM	You can keep pointing out that it's broken all you want, but there are other systems that do the exact same thing, and they work fine, so I don't agree with you.
CrazyOzzy 11-09-07, 06:33 AM	You can keep pointing out that it's broken all you want, but there are other systems that do the exact same thing, and they work fine, so I don't agree with you. Hehe, seems like most people disagree with you on the particular point of spell cost but anyway it's your system and you have your own vision of the D&D world that you want to impose so in the end it's your decision. Please don't take it personally nobody here is trying to bring you down, it's all constructive. A little plagiarism is fine. You don't have to come up with something totally new. Anyway your system is not at all like the spell point system as previously stated. The only thing I suggested you take from that system was the base strain points + bonus from stat, I did not say you should take the exact same numbers, you can work on your own formula but I just felt higher numbers should be used for increased system praticality. Good luck mate!
Rustmonster 11-09-07, 09:40 AM	You can keep pointing out that it's broken all you want, but there are other systems that do the exact same thing, and they work fine, so I don't agree with you. Oh, I guess you didn't even read the part where I gave a suggestion. Oh well, I guess you won't listen anyway. Constructive criticism: Give a cost to ALL spell levels. Just bump the other ones up a little. Don't be afraid because it might look more like the spell point system. That isn't what your system is. It works totally differently. It's better that your system looks a tiny, tiny, insignificant amount like another system then it being broken. Oh no, I used the word broken once in that entire sentance. I guess that means it has no redeeming factors.
Valoy_Muniz 11-09-07, 12:29 PM	How about this for a table Spell Level_______________Strain Cost Highest level of spells______4 2nd highest level__________3.5 3rd highest level__________3 4th highest level__________2.5 5th highest level__________2 6th highest level _________1.5 7th highest level__________1 8th highest level__________0.5 9th highest level__________0.1 10th highest level_________0 On all dc roll you would roll up. While a cleric can cast a tone of low level heals it will still add up on them.
Slapstick87 11-09-07, 01:30 PM	It's begining to take shape, but a few questions: Can the int, wis and cha drain be healed by a cleric? If the caster has a int score of 16, and the int is drained to 12 because of strain, would a spell that does 12 int damage kill/lobotomize him? What about creatures/characters that are immune to ability drain? - Slapstick