Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Degobah 08-26-07, 09:29 AM	Random things keeping me up tonight... -Inconsistent Prerequisites: should Stunning Fist require a +8 BAB to learn if a class picks it up at 1st level? Should Exotic weapon proficiency require a +1 BAB to learn if several classes (monk, rogue, bard) pick up these at 1st level before they gain a +1 BAB? -If wild shape is a druid’s main attack power, they shouldn’t have to wait until 5th level to learn it. (Why stop a character changing into a wolf, when you’re letting them have a wolf animal companion anyway?) -What sort of action is an attack of opportunity? (free action? Perhaps an immediate action, but with Combat Reflexes letting you carry it out as a free action Dex modifier times/round?) -Is it fair to allow a Cleave on an attack of opportunity? You stand there minding your own business and you get hit because the guy next to you decided to load his crossbow. -If I have a Vorpal weapon, I can’t decapitate an opponent with a Coup De Grace- even though you automatically critical it isn’t a 20. -You can't threaten to kill a hostage in D&D since you can't ready a coup de grace (its a full-round action). And pinned opponents aren't helpless. Sigh. And even sneak attacking them requires you take a -20 penalty on the grapple. -If I’m using two weapons to charge someone, shouldn’t I be able to use both on the lunge? -If two 20th level fighters are facing off 10 feet apart, they should both delay -the first one to move forfeits ¾ of their attacks... -The 20th level fighter with 8 Dex, gets 4 regular attacks and 1 attack of opportunity, whereas the 1st level fighter with Combat Reflexes and Dex 18 gets 1 regular attack and 5 attacks of opportunity. Shouldn't the guy who can attack four times as often, get more AoOs?? -If I’m hit with a glaive of wounding from a barbazu, the wounds bleed on their turn. If someone glaives you to –1 hit points and you start dying, you lose hit points on your turn. (The moral of this story is: Everyone should make sure they delay so the cleric goes before them, and after the monster!) -Why goes enlarge person give different size bonus to STR than advancing a monster? Why goes Enlarge Person give a different bonus to Righteous Might when both give the same size increase. -Why is one 12-HD monster Medium, one Large and one Huge? Why are Huge monsters better at avoiding fireballs (more HD = better Reflex save?).
ragoftag 08-26-07, 04:11 PM	Hmmm, good ones! Lemme try: -Inconsistent Prerequisites: should Stunning Fist require a +8 BAB to learn if a class picks it up at 1st level? Should Exotic weapon proficiency require a +1 BAB to learn if several classes (monk, rogue, bard) pick up these at 1st level before they gain a +1 BAB?These and others are Class Features and specifically bend the 'rules' and often are conditional, predicated on that Class. -If wild shape is a druid’s main attack power, they shouldn’t have to wait until 5th level to learn it. (Why stop a character changing into a wolf, when you’re letting them have a wolf animal companion anyway?)Inadequate Playtesting, or a futile attempt at halting CoDzilla? -What sort of action is an attack of opportunity? (free action? Perhaps an immediate action, but with Combat Reflexes letting you carry it out as a free action Dex modifier times/round?)I love this one! And your take is my thinking exactly!
DrMorganes 08-26-07, 07:05 PM	-Inconsistent Prerequisites: should Stunning Fist require a +8 BAB to learn if a class picks it up at 1st level? Should Exotic weapon proficiency require a +1 BAB to learn if several classes (monk, rogue, bard) pick up these at 1st level before they gain a +1 BAB? The prerequisites are not inconsistent. All classes must meet the prerequisites for the feats you mention, unless a special class feature specifically grants the feat. In the case of Stunning Fist, monks are granted this as one of two OPTIONS at Monk Level 1 as a reflection of their special training. Likewise, monks, rogues, and bards receive special training with certain weapons as part of their class. Other classes must reach a certain level of familiarity with weapons in general (abstracted into a +1 BAB) before they can learn to handle a more exotic weapon. -If wild shape is a druid’s main attack power, they shouldn’t have to wait until 5th level to learn it. (Why stop a character changing into a wolf, when you’re letting them have a wolf animal companion anyway?) You're assuming that wild shape is in fact the druid's primary method of attack. I'd argue that while wild shape is indeed a powerful addition to melee, it's far from a druid's "main attack power". Wild shape has far, far more utility than simply morphing into a dire bear and kicking arse. As far as waiting to Druid 5 to gain wild shape: if WS were available as a class feature at Level 1, every melee type on the planet would multiclass with a single level of druid. Call it a balance issue if you wish. -What sort of action is an attack of opportunity? (free action? Perhaps an immediate action, but with Combat Reflexes letting you carry it out as a free action Dex modifier times/round?) An attack of opportunity is a special-case single melee attack made vs an opponent under special conditions. It is neither free action nor immediate action. It is an attack of opportunity. -Is it fair to allow a Cleave on an attack of opportunity? You stand there minding your own business and you get hit because the guy next to you decided to load his crossbow. Let me ask you this: is it fair to DISallow a cleave on an attack of opportunity? If my combat prowess allows me to hack a kobold in twain and use the follow-through to whack the orc standing next to it, where's the justification for limiting that ability to attacks made on my initiative count? In short: yes, it's fair. -If I have a Vorpal weapon, I can’t decapitate an opponent with a Coup De Grace- even though you automatically critical it isn’t a 20. What? Of course you can use a vorpal weapon to decapitate an opponent. It's merely a matter of description: if the target dies, does it matter if you ran a sword through his heart or cut off his head? -You can't threaten to kill a hostage in D&D since you can't ready a coup de grace (its a full-round action). And pinned opponents aren't helpless. Sigh. And even sneak attacking them requires you take a -20 penalty on the grapple. Fie. This is why D&D requires a referee (an old school reference to the Dungeon Master). There are times when, dammit, you most certainly SHOULD be able to stick a knife into someone's neck and have done with things. HOWEVER, the rules generally work in favor of the PCs. If you've ever had a character in exactly that situation you'll be quite happy to have the DM play by the rules. That, and most characters finding themselves in such a situation are generally low-level NPCs with at most 2 hit dice. The point? A Level 1 Noble will likely die from that d4 dagger strike regardless! -If I’m using two weapons to charge someone, shouldn’t I be able to use both on the lunge? You can - with the proper feat. It's a matter of training. -If two 20th level fighters are facing off 10 feet apart, they should both delay -the first one to move forfeits ¾ of their attacks... Yes. So? -The 20th level fighter with 8 Dex, gets 4 regular attacks and 1 attack of opportunity, whereas the 1st level fighter with Combat Reflexes and Dex 18 gets 1 regular attack and 5 attacks of opportunity. Shouldn't the guy who can attack four times as often, get more AoOs?? No. Iterative attacks are a measure of melee know-how, and are not related in any way one's ability to react to the unexpected in combat. Besides, one can only make a single attack of opportunity vs any one foe in a given round. The potential to make 5 attacks of opportunity will go unfulfilled most of the time. -Why goes enlarge person give different size bonus to STR than advancing a monster? Why goes Enlarge Person give a different bonus to Righteous Might when both give the same size increase. Because it's magic. :rolleyes: Seriously, though, the spells do entirely different things. Advancing a monster is NOT the same as making it magically larger... -Why is one 12-HD monster Medium, one Large and one Huge? Because Hit Dice are not a measure of physical size. A 12 HD human fighter is no larger than he was at 1 HD. Why are Huge monsters better at avoiding fireballs (more HD = better Reflex save?). Better than what? You should be making a comparison between two quantities here. However, the generic answer is: Hit Dice are not a measure of physical size. Size CAN be a clue to HD, but the two are not specifically linked. Rather, consider Hit Dice a way to "level up" with no class levels. Larger creatures are also older (or have more levels), having had time to grow into their size. Just as a character with more class levels has learned a thing or two, a monster with more hit dice is better at various things. Creatures that are naturally large generally have lower Dexterity scores, so their Reflex saves are not really all that great. Consider: A Young black dragon (aged 16-25 years) has a Reflex Save bonus of +7. A human rogue of the proper level to face such a creature will have at least a +9 on the same save - and will likely be about the same age! That same dragon, however, has learned a bit more about its environment that a wyrmling or very young dragon. It's more alert to danger and can better anticipate things like fireballs. That is what makes it better at Reflex saves.
nonsi 08-26-07, 07:25 PM	Suggestions: -Is it fair to allow a Cleave on an attack of opportunity? You stand there minding your own business and you get hit because the guy next to you decided to load his crossbow. Absof*****glutely not !!! (unless you allow the other guy +4 dodge AC and an immediate retaliation with a counter-AoO with +4 hit bonus) -You can't threaten to kill a hostage in D&D since you can't ready a coup de grace (its a full-round action). And pinned opponents aren't helpless. Sigh. And even sneak attacking them requires you take a -20 penalty on the grapple. You could decide that getting into coup de grace position takes a full round action (or house rule it to a standard action) and maintaining the threat provoke AoO's, but with +6 init bonus to carry out your threat. -If I’m using two weapons to charge someone, shouldn’t I be able to use both on the lunge? Because with a 2-H weapon you'r using just 1 end. What's more bizarre to me, is the fact that someone could actually carry out the fancy footwork required for Spring Attack while he has both hand "glued" together on the hilt of his great sword. Dumb. Really dumb. -If two 20th level fighters are facing off 10 feet apart, they should both delay -the first one to move forfeits ¾ of their attacks... It's not exactly ¾, but Another reasonable house rule could be that a standard attack grants you #2/3 your full attack (round down). -The 20th level fighter with 8 Dex, gets 4 regular attacks and 1 attack of opportunity, whereas the 1st level fighter with Combat Reflexes and Dex 18 gets 1 regular attack and 5 attacks of opportunity. Shouldn't the guy who can attack four times as often, get more AoOs?? Still, that 20th level fighter could get way more from his single AoO. Anyway, I think AoO should be an immediate action - thus you can never have more than one in a combat round. -If I’m hit with a glaive of wounding from a barbazu, the wounds bleed on their turn. reasonable - stands for 1-round ellapsed time - If someone glaives you to –1 hit points and you start dying, you lose hit points on your turn. Again - dumb. The wounding effect should continue when 1-round has ellapsed. -Why goes enlarge person give different size bonus to STR than advancing a monster? Why goes Enlarge Person give a different bonus to Righteous Might when both give the same size increase. Righteous Might is just one of several spells that should never have been invented and should be ommitted. Don't expect to run into it at 4th ed. -Why is one 12-HD monster Medium, one Large and one Huge? Why are Huge monsters better at avoiding fireballs (more HD = better Reflex save?). CR over rationale.
Khadmus 08-26-07, 08:14 PM	And so we demonstrate that opinions vary widely and your (DM's) interpretation is ultimately what makes the day.
Degobah 08-27-07, 07:51 PM	lol. Some interesting ideas. I agree the greatswords shouldn't be used for spring attack As for prerequisites...maybe. I still maintain that if a bard can learn to use a whip, anyone should be able to. And Stunning Fist should be a class feature, not a feat. As far as waiting to Druid 5 to gain wild shape: if WS were available as a class feature at Level 1, every melee type on the planet would multiclass with a single level of druid. Call it a balance issue if you wish. I don't think most fighters would be lining up to trade their 2d6 greatsword for a set of 1d4 claws. More effective combat forms do tend to be at higher levels. An attack of opportunity is a special-case single melee attack made vs an opponent under special conditions. It is neither free action nor immediate action. It is an attack of opportunity. Yes but...taking an attack of opportunity involves doing something, so its an action. Actions (it is claimed) fall into the categories free, immediate, standard, move and full-round - you can maintain attacks of opportunity are an additional type of action ("opportunity action") which should be listed with the others, or they should fall into one of the other categories, which is probably more productive. Let me ask you this: is it fair to DISallow a cleave on an attack of opportunity? If my combat prowess allows me to hack a kobold in twain and use the follow-through to whack the orc standing next to it, where's the justification for limiting that ability to attacks made on my initiative count? In short: yes, it's fair. Logically you expect a Cleave attack to have a fair bit of power behind it since you have to cut all the way through someone and into the next guy. Taking an attack of opportunity is exploiting a split-second opening and its most likely that the attack wouldn't be optimal. Furthermore, allowing AoOs to cleave is the basis for tricks like the old "Bag of Rats" trick of 3.0, which WOTC got around by whacking Whirlwind instead of Cleave...the basic principle is still there, e.g. the druid can summon animals and race them past the fighter so he can cleave from them onto the BBEG. (It is a misuse of druid animals, but thats not the point). What? Of course you can use a vorpal weapon to decapitate an opponent. It's merely a matter of description: if the target dies, does it matter if you ran a sword through his heart or cut off his head? Well, there is a save against Coup de Grace. A save which is easier from a vorpal weapon that nearly any other magic weapon, since its a +5 equivalent special ability. i.e. the Flaming burst scythe +4 (a +6 weapon) will have a Fort save DC of 10+1d6+4d8+3d10+16 = 63, whereas the +1 vorpal scythe (also a +6 weapon) has a save DC of 10+4d8+4 = a mere 32. And the point with fighters and moving, that I consider a hole, is that winning initiative is bad. The guy who acts first loses attacks, while the guy who spends most of the round picking his nose before doing anything, gets to explode in a flurry of attacks in the last quarter-second of the round.
Galstaf, Sorcerer of Lite 08-27-07, 08:02 PM	For the most part, I agree with DrMorganes. On all counts. And I want to add something to this one: -You can't threaten to kill a hostage in D&D since you can't ready a coup de grace (its a full-round action). And pinned opponents aren't helpless. Sigh. And even sneak attacking them requires you take a -20 penalty on the grapple. First of all, you most certainly can threaten to kill a hostage. You can say anything you like. And while the rules don't technically make it possible to follow through on your threats, remember that the characters in the game don't know the rules; If a villain says, "don't come any closer or I'll kill this hostage!" the characters don't think, "that's ridiculous -- you can't ready a full-round action," they think, "holy crap, if we come any closer, he'll kill that hostage!" To act based solely upon the rules without a thought to the way a person might actually react in such a situation is missing the whole point of human-driven RPGs. Secondly, a hostage isn't necessarily grappled, even in the standard "human shield and a knife to their throat/gun to their head" situation (i.e, this (http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/hostage_small1.jpg)). If you've got a lethal weapon pointed at a vital part of some person's anatomy like their head, heart or throat, and that person has every reason to believe you'll use it if they don't do what you say, it often doesn't take much in the way of physical activity to restrain them. If they're hysterical and struggling to get away, yes, that's a grapple. But many people are smart enough to be terrified and remain calm enough not to give the man with a gun to their head an excuse to use it. In those cases, the only thing preventing a coup de grace is time; a coup de grace is possible against a helpless opponent, and the SRD says: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. "Helpless" doesn't necessarily mean "immobile." Beyond that, this is one of those situations where any good DM would have to make a ruling outside the RAW. It takes a fraction of a second to pull a trigger or run a knife across someone's throat. That's a standard action at most; a regular attack is a standard action and in that case you're trying to get through the opponent's defenses, or aim the shot, or otherwise make sure you hit. If they're already at your mercy it will take less time than even a regular swing/shot would. And I don't care how many hit points you have, a bullet in your brain is the end for you. Kaput. Finito. Gone. Maybe you'll survive if you get very lucky and medical treatment begins within the first few minutes. Maybe. But you'll still probably never walk again. To me, that spells "readied action coup de grace." Again, the power of the human mind is why we have a person driving this thing in the first place.