Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cosmosis 06-10-05, 04:32 PM	I'm intrigued by the recharge magic variant to the point that I'd like to create a campaign setting centered around it. Are there any suggestions for handling the game, changing spells, monsters, classes, and items, focal points (physical or not) of this kind of setting, etc? Some background: - I already know where to find recharge times (general and specific) for non-core spells. - This will be a high-magic campaign, obviously. Even physical classes are encouraged to have a few spellcasting levels, though they have no obligation to do so. - This essentially my first crack at a campaign setting. I had a few sketchy concepts for a more convential one (it's always easier to start off with the norm), but they never really got off the ground. - Recharge magic is a high-powered variant, so ways to keep the PCs in check are welcome. Would this be a better fit in the Campaign Workshop forum?
Lawrence 06-11-05, 12:55 AM	first suggestion: limit some spells in use. 1) healing spells - I would suggest puting a tap on how much you can heal a person in a day. You should at least let them heal fully once. Likewise, but a minimum heal on them, something they can always heal to (so they can at least save themselves from death by a small margin if needed). 2) high powered with make these abilities more noticeable. if the non-casters are being encouraged to have magic, consider giving noncasters the benefit of a pseudo spell-list. Something they could actually use a little from. It won't compare to actual casters of course, but it would help. I didn't know we had such a foruM! lol
Cosmosis 06-12-05, 09:33 AM	Thank you! I took a quick look and realized that heal has a general recharge time. It's going to need some major tweaking, possibly being removed altogether.
Lawrence 06-12-05, 07:51 PM	nonono, don't remove the heal spell, or you'll splinter an important divine tool. The heal spell could definitely be limited to 1 use on a person only in a day or more however. Definitely make it use up the persons healing limit for at least the day unless it doesn't heal them completely.
8-Bit Ninja 06-12-05, 09:16 PM	Another possibility is to make a recharging Heal a requirement, not just a nice thing to have. Make your players wish it recharged faster, not happy that it recharges at all. Throw them into a place where gooey death lurks around ever corner. Make it so that when they enter a dungeon, they aren’t getting out till you say they are. This makes them feel cool (because they just stomped something the should have been able to smoke them in a normal game) and also insures that they never feel the challenge has gone out of the game. Things with beefy spell resistance make that mage with infinite disintegrate feel less like a god, and NPC casters remind players that they are not the only ones with the power.
LordGilwen 06-13-05, 05:22 PM	A healing cap would be good if you wanted to run a more lethal campaign but be aware that it might slow things down a bit too. You could use the damage threshold as a start if you use it. By default the save or die damage threshold is 50 points. You could say that is the limit of the number of hit points a person could be magically healed per day. In my games I have lowered the threshold to twice the CON score, I have seen DM's use a threshold equal to your CON score. Another idea is that you can have X amount of hit points per level healed magically per day. HTH, Gil
Cosmosis 06-13-05, 06:42 PM	These are all great ideas. Heal is staying in the campaign, that's for sure. The downside I was toying with was giving it a one-minute casting time--but the healing cap is certainly a viable option. 8-Bit Ninja's suggestion of a superdangerous campaign is probably a good idea, but I'm not sure if it'll mesh with my DMing style.
Masterful_Norg 06-14-05, 02:01 AM	Just to simulate in your own mind how the abundance of spells will effect the world consider the following situation. A sorceror casting spells for a living at the maximum of 8 hours a day will be able to cast 2400 spells on average which is 800 times the amount of first level spells castable in the old system. In a simplistic model, if a caster is to accumulate equal net profits across settings regardless of the magic system then spells will have to be 1/800 the usual price due to the massive increase in supply. So now that a 1st level spell costs 1 and quarter copper peices think of what effect that kind of availability would have on the history of your world. I'm guessing its quite a significant effect. The consequences of such magical saturation may manifest as gigantic architectural wonders, massive fleets of airships, super destructive arcane cannons and an information society. However, there is the even more miraculous possibility that it would have no effect at all.
LordGilwen 06-14-05, 07:55 PM	another item jumped out at me today when reading UA...have your healing magic do damage conversion instead of directly healing HP have the magic convert it to non lethal damage. Gil
Cosmosis 06-15-05, 09:18 AM	another item jumped out at me today when reading UA...have your healing magic do damage conversion instead of directly healing HP have the magic convert it to non lethal damage. Gil Good idea, but that could lead to situations where healing makes a healthy character fall unconscious.
LordGilwen 06-15-05, 09:29 AM	Good idea, but that could lead to situations where healing makes a healthy character fall unconscious. You are correct and it would mean that the characters would have to use the magic wisely and would cut down on it's use in a recharge magic world. You could also rule that healing would heal damage up to the CON modifier (to keep the healing cap you could even have that modifier be the per day max) and everything else would be coverted. Another idea if healing caps per day don't intrested you is you could still have a healing cap but that would be the most any one healilng attempt could heal. Gil
Lawrence 06-15-05, 01:51 PM	and in regards to casting spells 800 times a day or whatever the number was. Take into account that, realistically, a person is gonna be bored to tears doing that, someone is gonna distract you eventually, or some other random, potentially entertaining events will happen to make it not so feasible. also, the Sorcerer, if doing this with 1st level spells, has to either be very high leveled to get the 0 or 1 round recharge, or be very lucking in the recharge rolls the entire time. so, more realistically, only the marvels of the world could be doing this, without magical aiid of course. If you want a magical expresso maker, be my guest.
Greyman 06-15-05, 02:21 PM	Good idea, but that could lead to situations where healing makes a healthy character fall unconscious.You are going to have to clarrify how you think this will happen. You fall unconscious when the total of non-lethal and lethal damage exceeds your hit point maximum. If you use damage conversion, some of the lethal damage is converted to non-lethal, but the total damage remains the same. Plus, you can only convert lethal damage you actually have into non-lethal.
LordGilwen 06-15-05, 03:30 PM	You are going to have to clarrify how you think this will happen. You fall unconscious when the total of non-lethal and lethal damage exceeds your hit point maximum. If you use damage conversion, some of the lethal damage is converted to non-lethal, but the total damage remains the same. Plus, you can only convert lethal damage you actually have into non-lethal. It's not your HP max used in the calculation but your current hitpoints. Let's say I have 100 hitpoints. I take 60 points of damage. That leaves me with 40 hitpoints left. I get some healing and it converts the 60 points of damage to nonlethal. I now have 60 points of non-lethal damage and 40 hitpoints which means my nonlethal damage is greater than my current hitpoints and I fall unconscious. This could happen all at once or slowly over several healings depending on the levels invovled. Not to mention if your opponent delivers nonlethal damage then your nonlethal damage will increase faster. The amount of nonlethal damage you take isn't capped by your hitpoint total just as lethal damage is not capped by your hitpoint total. Another possibility is that the person that you are healing can become staggerd if you heal them and their HP exactly equals the nonlethal damage total they have accumulated. Gil Staggered: A character whose nonlethal damage exactly equals his current hit points is staggered. A staggered character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). A character whose current hit points exceed his nonlethal damage is no longer staggered; a character whose nonlethal damage exceeds his hit points becomes unconscious. Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between –1 and –9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Draco Light 06-15-05, 04:02 PM	It's not your HP max used in the calculation but your current hitpoints. Let's say I have 100 hitpoints. I take 60 points of damage. That leaves me with 40 hitpoints left. I get some healing and it converts the 60 points of damage to nonlethal. I now have 60 points of non-lethal damage and 40 hitpoints which means my nonlethal damage is greater than my current hitpoints and I fall unconscious. Your math is wrong. If you turn the 60 lethal damage you've taken into nonlethal damage, you have 100 HPs and 60 nonlethal damage. You stay conscious, and do just dandy.
Cosmosis 06-15-05, 04:15 PM	My bad... I just went over the SRD; her's some of what it has to say about nonlethal damage. The important sentence is in bold. Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down. So when lethal damage becomes nonlethal, it's no longer deducted from your current hit points. Draco Light is right.
LordGilwen 06-15-05, 04:24 PM	I'll have to re-read the section in UA, but I don't think you get to add the 60 back on to your HP until you've healed the nonlethal damage. The damage conversion is a varient rule found in UA and might change that statement from the SRD. Gil
Masterful_Norg 06-15-05, 05:41 PM	and in regards to casting spells 800 times a day or whatever the number was. Take into account that, realistically, a person is gonna be bored to tears doing that, someone is gonna distract you eventually, or some other random, potentially entertaining events will happen to make it not so feasible. But with PCs you can just "set it and forget it" (no will save to avoid being bored to tears) luckily the designers set a maximum 8 hour work limit. Oh, and it doesn't have to be a continuous 8 hours. also, the Sorcerer, if doing this with 1st level spells, has to either be very high leveled to get the 0 or 1 round recharge, or be very lucking in the recharge rolls the entire time.My model used a first level sorceror getting average rolls. Maybe I used the wrong recharge time but I'm too lazy to check. so, more realistically, only the marvels of the world could be doing this, without magical aiid of course. If you want a magical expresso maker, be my guest.Mrah. Doesn't seem like it from where I'm standing, but I'll take you up on that espresso.
LordGilwen 06-16-05, 01:54 PM	Yep Draco is right, I re-read the section in UA. So you couldn't make someone or someone else directly go unconscious by healing them using damage conversion but it could be an indirect result of a lot of healing so casters will still have to use their healing wisely else they will make the non-lethal damage grow and each time the person takes damage the possibility of passing out is greater and could quite possibly take somone out of the action. Gil
Greyman 06-17-05, 04:00 AM	I'll have to re-read the section in UA, but I don't think you get to add the 60 back on to your HP until you've healed the nonlethal damage. The damage conversion is a varient rule found in UA and might change that statement from the SRD.Gill, the slower magical healing variant has been miscalled damage conversion because, when using the variant, healing magic converts lethal damage into non-lethal damage. (Note that non-lethal damage is not healed by magic with this variant.) Since your current hit point total is your maximum hit points minus the amount lethal damage you've sustained, converting some of this lethal damage into non-lethal therefore directly results in raising your current hit points.Yep Draco is right, I re-read the section in UA. So you couldn't make someone or someone else directly go unconscious by healing them using damage conversion but it could be an indirect result of a lot of healing so casters will still have to use their healing wisely else they will make the non-lethal damage grow and each time the person takes damage the possibility of passing out is greater and could quite possibly take somone out of the action.Not quite. Think about what would happen if that damage had not been converted! For example, Bill and Ben have a 100 hp maximum. Both have sustained 60 points of lethal damage, dropping their current hp to 40. Eric's magic converts Bill's lethal-damage into non-lethal, however, before he can cure Ben, they are attacked again, each sustaining an additional 60 points of lethal damage. The final result is: Bill 60 lethal and 60 non-lethal damage sustained; Current health: 40 hp and unconscious. Ben 120 lethal and no non-lethal damage sustained; Current health: -20 hp and deadWho would you rather be? We suggest using damage conversion with the recharge magic system because it places a practical limit on how often you can cast curative spells. However, the limit is on how much damage you can sustain in a day rather than on how much of that damage can be converted. Remember that non-lethal damage is healed at a rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level so you can sustain quite a lot of damage in a day, just as long as you magically converts it to non-lethal damage and have time to heal it naturally in between encounters.
LordGilwen 06-17-05, 09:15 AM	For example, Bill and Ben have a 100 hp maximum. Both have sustained 60 points of lethal damage, dropping their current hp to 40. Eric's magic converts Bill's lethal-damage into non-lethal, however, before he can cure Ben, they are attacked again, each sustaining an additional 60 points of lethal damage. The final result is: Bill 60 lethal and 60 non-lethal damage sustained; Current health: 40 hp and unconscious. Ben 120 lethal and no non-lethal damage sustained; Current health: -20 hp and deadWho would you rather be? Being unconscious in the middle of battle could equate to being dead, that would mean relying on your attackers to have mercy on your unconscious body. I understand how this works and tatically casters will have to think before they just go healing everyone that has sustained damage and that has had healing done on them already. There may be times when it is not beneficial to have the ppl on your side passing out from healing and that means that ppl could probably die as a result, lots of variables to consider but for your run of the mill adventure I would accept that I would rather be unconscious instead of dead. :) I am not arguing againist using damage conversion with recharge magic but merely addressing a point that was brought up, in fact in my next campaign I will be using both variants. Gil
Greyman 06-17-05, 01:32 PM	Being unconscious in the middle of battle could equate to being dead, that would mean relying on your attackers to have mercy on your unconscious body.Well, the difference is that dead is dead but there's always a chance of your enemy being distracted from your unconcious body by your ally. Also, when you drop in battle there's no need for anyone to rush to make a heal check if you're merely unconcious rather than actually dying.I understand how this works and tatically casters will have to think before they just go healing everyone that has sustained damage and that has had healing done on them already. There may be times when it is not beneficial to have the ppl on your side passing out from healing and that means that ppl could probably die as a result, lots of variables to consider but for your run of the mill adventure I would accept that I would rather be unconscious instead of dead. :) I don't think you've quite grasped the principle at all. People never pass out because of the healing. People only fall unconsious when they take more damage later on. There is nothing to think about. Converting lethal damage to non-lethal damage is always better than not. The only thing you have to worry about when using this variant is not having enough time between each encounter to heal damage sustained in the last. The only variables to consider are your rate of healing. You only heal 1 point of lethal damage per level per day with 8 hours rest, or 2 points of lethal damage per level per day of full bed rest. On the other hand, you heal 1 point of non-lethal damage per level per hour, whether resting or not. In one whole day, with 8 hours of rest and conversion of all damage sustained, you can heal up to a total of 25 points of damage per character level - as long as you pace the encounters so that you never have more combined damage than your maximum hit points at any one time. In one whole day, with 8 hours of rest and no conversion of damage, you can heal up to a total of 1 point of damage per character level. Clearly not a good choice in an encounter heavy campaign (the type where Recharge Magic designed to be used).
LordGilwen 06-17-05, 01:58 PM	Well, the difference is that dead is dead but there's always a chance of your enemy being distracted from your unconcious body by your ally. Also, when you drop in battle there's no need for anyone to rush to make a heal check if you're merely unconcious rather than actually dying. Valid point. People never pass out because of the healing. People only fall unconsious when they take more damage later on. If you noticed I corrected myself in an earlier post. What CAN happen is ppl going unconscious indrectly (read contributing factor if that suits you better) because of healing, again there are lots of variables including the amount of damage recieved and level of encounter. <sniped my first example due to an math error> For example in a situation where one of the enemy is trying to knock you out. The others can give you real damage and one of them say a monk is doing nonlethal damage to you. If your healer heals you then your own party is helping the bad guys knock you out since your non lethal damage will more quickly approch your current hp total! There is nothing to think about. Converting lethal damage to non-lethal damage is always better than not. The only thing you have to worry about when using this variant is not having enough time between each encounter to heal damage sustained in the last. The only variables to consider are your rate of healing. You only heal 1 point of lethal damage per level per day with 8 hours rest, or 2 points of lethal damage per level per day of full bed rest. On the other hand, you heal 1 point of non-lethal damage per level per hour, whether resting or not. There is no such thing as an absolute in all situations. In one whole day, with 8 hours of rest and conversion of all damage sustained, you can heal up to a total of 25 points of damage per character level - as long as you pace the encounters so that you never have more combined damage than your maximum hit points at any one time. In one whole day, with 8 hours of rest and no conversion of damage, you can heal up to a total of 1 point of damage per character level. Clearly not a good choice in an encounter heavy campaign (the type where Recharge Magic designed to be used). I have replied in the body of your qoute in red and I have already constented that MOST of the time, here it is again MOST of the time it is preferable to be healed even if you are unconscious after recieving damage later in the round, but I disagree with your statment of there is nothing to think about for healers and we'll just have to disagree on that point. Gil
iam_bkee 06-17-05, 03:21 PM	At low level, it was very good at getting the game moving. It made things flow more like a video game (for good or bad). You could have a large encounter, and fully recover after an hour or two of rest instead of camping for a day. So in a game day, we could have several large encounters. It didn't bother me that the cleric could Heal everyone up between encounters, in fact that was a good thing. What made it interresting was the cleric had to be very strategic in how she fired off her healing. She tended to fire them off as soon as they would do some good, because the good ones had to be spaced several rounds apart. The mage was the opposite. He led with his biggest spells, to increase the chance of being ready again rounds later. What he couldn't do was memorize 4 fireballs and fire them 4 rounds in a row. What broke us when everyone got around level 10 the mage could stay invisible indefinitely. Or Bull's Strength, which lasts for 10 minutes, with a 5 minute recharge he could keep two fighters buffed at all times. At this point the system was, in our opinion, broken, and we tossed it. We had a similar experience with Armor provides DR. It was great at low levels, but becomes more of a penalty at higher levels. For example, a 12th level character getting hit by a giant for 30 points of damage per hit, would prefer to have his AC back and avoid the hit, than have his armor shave 4 points of damage.
BelZoradon 06-17-05, 10:43 PM	idk how this whole thing would work as a system for everyone (heal is general?! WHAT ARE THEY SMOKING!? and where can i get some?) but i used this rule when i modified the sorcerer but balanced the blast forever ablities (and a few others, PM me if you wanna see my sorc) by making the caster take damage while casting... not alot of damage mind you but they still burned when they casted, just an idea
Greyman 06-18-05, 03:42 AM	[/COLOR]For example in a situation where one of the enemy is trying to knock you out. The others can give you real damage and one of them say a monk is doing nonlethal damage to you. If your healer heals you then your own party is helping the bad guys knock you out since your non lethal damage will more quickly approch your current hp total! Gil, that's just not so. Any damage needed to drop a character unconcious after a curative spell is applied would have had the exact same impact if the spell had not been used. The only difference is that the damage needed to drop the character to dying (aka current hit points) is increased by the cure. After converting any amount of lethal damage into non-lethal the character is no closer, or further, from being knocked unconcious. For every point of lethal damage converted into non-lethal damage, the current hit point level increases by the exact same amount. It is a 1:1 conversion. Thuswise the difference between non-lethal damage and current hit points, the subdual threshold, remains the same - until that non-lethal damage starts to heal. Let's try a graphical demonstration of this simple mathematical point. [Lethal Damage] [Current Hit Points]=[Maximum Hit Points]-[Lethal Damage] [Non-lethal Damage] [Subdual Threshold]=[Current Hit Points]-[Non-lethal Damage] Initial Damage taken (some lethal, some non-lethal): Some damage converted: All converted:
icote 06-18-05, 06:27 AM	I use the exact same method for hit points & non-lethal http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430840 Also instead of Recharge, I use a modified spell slot system that incurs non-lethal damage to recharge slots. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430867
LordGilwen 06-18-05, 05:09 PM	I found the error in my math that was plaguing my reasoning. You are correct :) Gil
Cosmosis 06-19-05, 10:01 PM	What broke us when everyone got around level 10 the mage could stay invisible indefinitely. Or Bull's Strength, which lasts for 10 minutes, with a 5 minute recharge he could keep two fighters buffed at all times. At this point the system was, in our opinion, broken, and we tossed it. This is one of the problems I'm trying to confront. How do you challenge a party with this kind of power? When the sorcerer has mastered "infininvisibility" and the fighter wears his +4 enhancement bonus like a security blanket? The only answer that's leapt out at me is the reduction of spell durations. The other major issue was brought up by Masterful_Norg--making a plausible magic-heavy world with a minimum of inconsistency. At its most basic level, I'm looking for a world where everyone is or knows a spellcaster, and arcane magic doesn't quite live up to that name.
Masterful_Norg 06-20-05, 01:33 AM	Highly abundant magic isn't too much of a problem if you're angling for the massive floating cities and arcane nuclear warheads (which are things I tend to angle for, though I do it with Tri-Stat). You could move away from the magic proliferation issue by making spellcasters lose their power if they accept payment for casting spells or if they cast too philanthropically (is that even a word?).
BelZoradon 06-20-05, 11:57 AM	two words.... anti-magic field there seems to be some sorta stigma against using that wonderful wonderful bit of game rules but it exsists for the sole reason i teaching that silly party that magic isnt the solution to everything