Swapping Class Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Swapping Class Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Riznar
06-02-04, 03:54 PM Simple Question:

What would the fighter have to give up to get a good will save?
Mr.Waesel
06-02-04, 05:05 PM -1/2 feat per level, if he wants to be moderately on par with the cleric or wizard (yes, that would mean he'd get a feat every level)
Mind Rogue
06-02-04, 05:24 PM HP
drop his HD down to d8, give him a new good save
MaverickWolf
06-02-04, 05:40 PM Due to being a combat focused class, a drop in hit die would be worth both good saves if you ask me....
Mind Rogue
06-03-04, 08:13 PM Also, you could try cutting out some of the BaB, bringing it down to x3/4 rather than x1. Judging by the d20 modern classes and the npc classes, a change in one hit die size is roughly equal to a 1/4 change in BaB or 2 skill points or one good save.
Riznar
06-03-04, 10:23 PM Thanks everyone! I think the d8 will work really well.

Alright, harder question.

What rogue-like abilities could you give a bard instead of bardic music, to make a spellcasting ninja? (Ever seen the anime Naruto?)

This is assuming the spell list stays about the same power and you swap can't silent for can't still spells.
Mind Rogue
06-05-04, 09:03 PM Bardic Knowledge might be worth the rogue's trapfinding ability and bardic music might be worth sneak attack +1d6 at first level +1d6 every three levels thereafter. I'd hesitate to make it the same rate as the rogue's, since a bard has spells, but spells might be a good trade off for the other rogue abilities, so you could play around with sneak attack at the same level as rogue. Alternatively, the other abilities might be more fitting for your rogue than sneak attack. In that case, trade bardic music for evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, bonus vs traps, and the bonus feats. Play around with it, but stay open
Mr.Waesel
06-07-04, 04:56 AM Originally posted by Mind Rogue
HP
drop his HD down to d8, give him a new good save

:uh-huh: Why should you penalize the fighter for a good will save? I think you're operating under the assumption that all core classes are balanced against each other. They aren't, and fighters suck ass.
Mind Rogue
06-07-04, 03:23 PM I don't assume that all the classes are equal, but I do assume that they are close enough that doing something like giving them a new save would damage the balance of the game. Fighters do not suck. They are simply balanced differently than other classes are. At low levels especially, they are often much better than frailer classes like sorcerer, wizard, rogue, and bard, simply because they might still be standing after taking a hit or two. If a fighter hits the wizard with his sword, axe, or whatever, the wizard falls, almost guarenteed. The wizards best attack abilities, Magic Missle, Shocking Grasp and a crossbow bolt cannot even down the fighter on a maximum roll, unless a criticle hit is scored, which is highly unlikely. The wizard's only chance at first level is to cast Sleep, which puts the fighter out of commision over half the time (comprable to the fighter hitting the wizard with his sword). If the fighter had a good will save, this might not work even half the time, depending on the fighter's will save.
Later, the fighter is against a sixth level sorcerer. The sorcerer can deal on average 21 points of damage three or four times with his Lightning bolt, but only once per round. The fighter will probably make one reflex save, therefore taking about 52 points of damage over three rounds. The fighter can make two attacks a turn with his greatsword for 2d6+7 points of damage (Str 16, +1 greatsword, +2 weapon specialization), which is about 14 points per hit. Since his attack bonus is +11/+6 (Str 16, +1 magic, +1 focus, +6/+1 bab) he can hit an AC 17 sorcerer (+4 mage armor, +3 dex) roughly five times in three rounds, dealing about 60 points of damage. The fighter deals more damage and is still able to dish out more after the initial rounds of combat. The low reflex save is what makes lightning bolt a possibility, and the low will save makes spells like hold person a possibility. At higher levels, many of the disabling spells like baleful polymorph, finger of death, wierd, etc. rely on fortitude saves to avoid death (or worse), while power word kill ignores creatures with lots of Hp (like fighters)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Riznar 06-02-04, 03:54 PM	Simple Question: What would the fighter have to give up to get a good will save?
Mr.Waesel 06-02-04, 05:05 PM	-1/2 feat per level, if he wants to be moderately on par with the cleric or wizard (yes, that would mean he'd get a feat every level)
Mind Rogue 06-02-04, 05:24 PM	HP drop his HD down to d8, give him a new good save
MaverickWolf 06-02-04, 05:40 PM	Due to being a combat focused class, a drop in hit die would be worth both good saves if you ask me....
Mind Rogue 06-03-04, 08:13 PM	Also, you could try cutting out some of the BaB, bringing it down to x3/4 rather than x1. Judging by the d20 modern classes and the npc classes, a change in one hit die size is roughly equal to a 1/4 change in BaB or 2 skill points or one good save.
Riznar 06-03-04, 10:23 PM	Thanks everyone! I think the d8 will work really well. Alright, harder question. What rogue-like abilities could you give a bard instead of bardic music, to make a spellcasting ninja? (Ever seen the anime Naruto?) This is assuming the spell list stays about the same power and you swap can't silent for can't still spells.
Mind Rogue 06-05-04, 09:03 PM	Bardic Knowledge might be worth the rogue's trapfinding ability and bardic music might be worth sneak attack +1d6 at first level +1d6 every three levels thereafter. I'd hesitate to make it the same rate as the rogue's, since a bard has spells, but spells might be a good trade off for the other rogue abilities, so you could play around with sneak attack at the same level as rogue. Alternatively, the other abilities might be more fitting for your rogue than sneak attack. In that case, trade bardic music for evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, bonus vs traps, and the bonus feats. Play around with it, but stay open
Mr.Waesel 06-07-04, 04:56 AM	Originally posted by Mind Rogue HP drop his HD down to d8, give him a new good save :uh-huh: Why should you penalize the fighter for a good will save? I think you're operating under the assumption that all core classes are balanced against each other. They aren't, and fighters suck ass.
Mind Rogue 06-07-04, 03:23 PM	I don't assume that all the classes are equal, but I do assume that they are close enough that doing something like giving them a new save would damage the balance of the game. Fighters do not suck. They are simply balanced differently than other classes are. At low levels especially, they are often much better than frailer classes like sorcerer, wizard, rogue, and bard, simply because they might still be standing after taking a hit or two. If a fighter hits the wizard with his sword, axe, or whatever, the wizard falls, almost guarenteed. The wizards best attack abilities, Magic Missle, Shocking Grasp and a crossbow bolt cannot even down the fighter on a maximum roll, unless a criticle hit is scored, which is highly unlikely. The wizard's only chance at first level is to cast Sleep, which puts the fighter out of commision over half the time (comprable to the fighter hitting the wizard with his sword). If the fighter had a good will save, this might not work even half the time, depending on the fighter's will save. Later, the fighter is against a sixth level sorcerer. The sorcerer can deal on average 21 points of damage three or four times with his Lightning bolt, but only once per round. The fighter will probably make one reflex save, therefore taking about 52 points of damage over three rounds. The fighter can make two attacks a turn with his greatsword for 2d6+7 points of damage (Str 16, +1 greatsword, +2 weapon specialization), which is about 14 points per hit. Since his attack bonus is +11/+6 (Str 16, +1 magic, +1 focus, +6/+1 bab) he can hit an AC 17 sorcerer (+4 mage armor, +3 dex) roughly five times in three rounds, dealing about 60 points of damage. The fighter deals more damage and is still able to dish out more after the initial rounds of combat. The low reflex save is what makes lightning bolt a possibility, and the low will save makes spells like hold person a possibility. At higher levels, many of the disabling spells like baleful polymorph, finger of death, wierd, etc. rely on fortitude saves to avoid death (or worse), while power word kill ignores creatures with lots of Hp (like fighters)