Swashbuckling Campaign: Armor Variant. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Swashbuckling Campaign: Armor Variant. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dontgothere
06-20-07, 05:53 PM Although I own a copy of the Unearthed Arcana supplement I am at a loss as to which Armor Class variant I should adapt for my swashbuckling game.

The variant in the Unearthed Arcana book is good but I am taking a look at another variant in Green Ronin's Advanced GamesMasters Guide. The variant they present also looks pretty good.

In a nutshell I am looking for a variant that does not do away with the armor rules but coincides with them and does not diminish characters who may choose to wear armor in warmer climates. I don't want to punish players who like armor but I still want the variant available for those who are more into the swashbuckling "Sinbad the sailor" type character.

Any suggestions?
trapspringer
06-20-07, 05:57 PM Make it a class option.

Characters who are proficient with heavy armor in a standard setting choose either proficiency or armor bonus when they take the first level of the class. That choice may not be altered later.
Dontgothere
06-20-07, 06:12 PM Make it a class option.

Characters who are proficient with heavy armor in a standard setting choose either proficiency or armor bonus when they take the first level of the class. That choice may not be altered later.

I don't mean to sound like an idiot but how would that work exactly?
True Cavalier
06-21-07, 04:44 AM How about lots of ship combat? Some people will not want to wear a full plate when they have to climb on masts a lot, and then swim once they are in the water.
Dontgothere
06-21-07, 05:53 AM How about lots of ship combat? Some people will not want to wear a full plate when they have to climb on masts a lot, and then swim once they are in the water.

One probem: That does not really handle the lack of armor bonuses that they would regularly have. So what that would really do is put the PCs at a disadvantage.

I like the class bonus thing. I just want to know how to work it in alongside the normal bonuses that characters get for wearing armor, since some of my players will still opt to wear armor and I do not want to knock them for it.
True Cavalier
06-21-07, 07:06 AM Hmm, the Conan D20 rpg has interesting rules for characters without much armor. You could have a look at that; it differentiates between parrying and dodging armor class values. Armor is also part DR there.

Though if you are climbing a thin rope ladder, or swashbuckling on top of the antenna a-la-pirates of the carribean 3, you are at an advantage if you have no armor, not disadvantage...
Dontgothere
06-21-07, 03:15 PM How much is the Conan RPG?
trapspringer
06-21-07, 09:40 PM I don't mean to sound like an idiot but how would that work exactly?

You see the UA variant? The part where is says character gain AC bonuses based on... Yea. That.

When they take their first level at character creation, they can decide to trade all armor proficiency for their indicated armor bonus.

If they do, and they later take class levels in another class they again choose. If they take their armor proficiencies, they don't advance their class bonus to AC when taking levels in this new class.

Obviously this is very abusable, but it would work well in a group with reasonable players.
Dontgothere
06-21-07, 11:17 PM You see the UA variant? The part where is says character gain AC bonuses based on... Yea. That.

When they take their first level at character creation, they can decide to trade all armor proficiency for their indicated armor bonus.

If they do, and they later take class levels in another class they again choose. If they take their armor proficiencies, they don't advance their class bonus to AC when taking levels in this new class.

Obviously this is very abusable, but it would work well in a group with reasonable players.

I consider my group to be pretty reasonable. I'll check it out sometime.
The Edda
06-22-07, 06:35 AM To throw a real spanner in the works, you could even go for the d20 Modern classes using advanced classes from Urban Arcana and the like... Not to everyone's taste of course, but it would certainly make the campaign less armour-focused.
trapspringer
06-22-07, 01:43 PM To throw a real spanner in the works, you could even go for the d20 Modern classes using advanced classes from Urban Arcana and the like... Not to everyone's taste of course, but it would certainly make the campaign less armour-focused.

Which might be valid, but in general, d20 classes aren't nearly as strong as 3.5 classes. That and the armor bonus system there is designed to function along with armor.
Archon of Light
06-22-07, 04:22 PM This was something I also recently attempted to address for an upcoming swashbuckling campaign. I ended up scrapping a lot more ideas than coming up with any viable solutions. However, I did discover a few disadvantages already in the rules that made heavy armors in this kind of setting unfavorable. Here's what I wrote about it:

The Hazards of Heavy Armors in a Swashbuckling Campaign
Unlike most ‘typical’ fantasy campaigns, heavy armor is not very common in this particular kind of setting. The hot and humid climate makes it very uncomfortable to wear for any long periods of time, and can be potentially dangerous to the wearer. The longer a person continues to wear heavy, metallic armors, the greater the risk becomes. Without taking extraordinary measures and precautions, a person will eventually succumb to the perils of prolonged exposure to heat. These may include suffering from dehydration, exhaustion, and even heat stroke.

For those who live or operate near open waters, however, the risk of drowning is a far more immediate danger. While wearing heavy armor, even a strong swimmer will be greatly impeded by wearing what is essentially an anchor. For this reason, it is not recommended to wear such armor on a ship where there is always a likely chance of falling overboard. In a fight, it is not uncommon for devious or cruel men to shove such a heavily armored opponent into a nearby body of shallow water. It only takes a few feet for the victim to find himself at the bottom and unable to reach the surface for air.

Because of these potential hazards, most people simply avoid using heavy armors even when given the opportunity to do so. That is not to suggest that heavy armors do not exist or are never used at all. It is simply less practiced and not as common as other places. Gladiators, for example, need not fear these dangerous when putting on a short exhibition for a single fight on dry land. The extra protection will certainly benefit them by donning the armor for a short while.

Adventurers, on the other hand, cannot simply ignore the potential for a greater defense, especially fighters, paladins, and clerics. Some will brave the risks, and the wise will learn to take certain precautions while doing so. A spell like endure elements, for example, will allow a person to wear the armors comfortably for as long as the spell lasts, or at least until it is dispelled. Even so, the spell provides little comfort to a drowning man.
In game terms, you'll really want to enforce the rules on Heat Dangers (DMG, pg 303, or refer to the SRD). This affects all characters regardless of the armor they wear, but wearing heavy armor imposes a -4 save penalty.

Also, you could have enemies attempt to bull rush heavily armored characters into the water, which could potentially drown the unsuspecting victim if they are unable to swim. In such a setting where tactics like this prove effective, almost anyone with average intelligence would employ them whenever the opportunity presents itself. And those wearing heavy armor are basically wearing a bullseye, inviting such tactics against them.

Still, the armor class and combat system is somewhat frustrating in its design. Characters that are encouraged to wear lighter armors, or discouraged from wearing heavy ones, are also being compelled to place a higher emphasis on Dexterity scores in order to compensate for the lower armor class ratings. When it comes down to it, and the dice are hitting the table, mobility and being able to swing around the mast will not affect the outcome of a battle as your basic defensive value against the enemy's attack roll.

Without modifying the entire combat system, or redefining how Armor Class and armors work, I can offer one simple solution. This should fit all the criteria you were looking for, and shouldn't unbalance the game as long as you remember to also apply it for the NPCs and monsters.

The Combat Defense Modifier (Variant Rule)
An armed combatant can defend himself with his weapon by parrying, blocking, and turning aside an enemy's attacks. This skill increases with the character's combat prowess, which is represented by his base attack bonus. Characters recieve a +1 Defense bonus to his Armor Class for every four (+4) BAB points acquired when gaining levels.

The Defense Bonus: A character can only gain his defense bonus while armed with a proficient melee weapon, or if unarmed and has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or ability. Without a proficient weapon in hand, or unable to use his improved unarmed strike ability, the character loses this defense bonus. Because this ability requires the character to be able to move and act freely to defend himself, he also loses this bonus whenever he is denied his Dexterity bonus, such as being caught flat-footed, immobolized, or prone.

This benefit counts against the maximum Dexterity bonus limit of any armor that the character wears. Thus, a character can never have a combined Defense and Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class that is greater than the allowed maximum Dexterity bonus for his armor. Any excessive bonus points are dropped from the Defense bonus first.

Example: A character with a 16 Dex (+3) and a +9 BAB (+2 Defense) wearing Leather Armor (+6 max Dex bonus) will enjoy a +5 bonus to Armor Class from his Dexterity score and his Defense bonus (as long as he is armed with a weapon in which he is proficient with). But if that character decides to put on a Chain Shirt (+4 max Dex bonus), then he will only recieve a +4 bonus to AC (+3 from Dex, but only +1 from Defense).

Of course, you may want to introduce a few new feats, like...

NEW FEAT
Improved Weapon Defense [General]
Choose one type of weapon that you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike as your weapon for purposes of this feat, but only if you also have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. You are especially good at defending yourself with your weapon of focus.
Prerequisites: +10 base attack bonus, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus in chosen weapon
Benefit: Whenever you are armed with your chosen weapon, you may exceed the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor worn by 1 for the purposes of determing your combined Dexterity and Defense modifiers. This effect does not stack if weilding more than one weapon with which the character has this feat.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter may select Improved Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Dontgothere
07-18-07, 10:00 PM You see the UA variant? The part where is says character gain AC bonuses based on... Yea. That.

When they take their first level at character creation, they can decide to trade all armor proficiency for their indicated armor bonus.

If they do, and they later take class levels in another class they again choose. If they take their armor proficiencies, they don't advance their class bonus to AC when taking levels in this new class.

Obviously this is very abusable, but it would work well in a group with reasonable players.

So basically each time they go into a class they must choose between armor proficiency and the class defense bonus?
trapspringer
07-19-07, 12:21 AM That's the scheme.

Unfortunately, like I said, it opens up some moderate abuse-ability options, but nothing too serious.
Roog
07-19-07, 04:15 AM Although I own a copy of the Unearthed Arcana supplement I am at a loss as to which Armor Class variant I should adapt for my swashbuckling game.

The variant in the Unearthed Arcana book is good but I am taking a look at another variant in Green Ronin's Advanced GamesMasters Guide. The variant they present also looks pretty good.

In a nutshell I am looking for a variant that does not do away with the armor rules but coincides with them and does not diminish characters who may choose to wear armor in warmer climates. I don't want to punish players who like armor but I still want the variant available for those who are more into the swashbuckling "Sinbad the sailor" type character.

Any suggestions?

Ideally you don't want to force characters to make awkward decisions like "do I want to ever where armour" to early in the game.

After looking at the 2 sources I suspect that they will give slightly different effects.

With the UA method the defense bonus quickly outclasses the possible armour bonus to AC for all but the most low-DEX-heavy-armour characters. Up to level 5 a character may want to wear plate, but after level 8 no character would want to wear armour (except for non-AC bonuses).

With the AGMG method characters whose total dodge bonus is less than their armour's max DEX will still gain a benefit from armour. Since Armour Bonus + Max DEX is approximately the same (~8-9) for the better armours of each category, most characters except for the highest/lowest AC types can approach this limit pretty quickly. I would expect to see some characters thinking about whether to wear armour, even up to very high levels.

One thing to consider is that the UA system is based only on what armour profs the character type has, while the AGMG system seems to be arbitary choices designed to give each class the appropriate flavor. I think that the amazing dodge progression from AGMG is unnecessary, unjustified, and should be replaced with the good progression.

Overall I think that the AGMG system, together with situation that increases the players concerns about ACPs to Balance, Climb, and Swim (etc) would give you what you want.
Dontgothere
07-19-07, 03:19 PM Ideally you don't want to force characters to make awkward decisions like "do I want to ever where armour" to early in the game.

After looking at the 2 sources I suspect that they will give slightly different effects.

With the UA method the defense bonus quickly outclasses the possible armour bonus to AC for all but the most low-DEX-heavy-armour characters. Up to level 5 a character may want to wear plate, but after level 8 no character would want to wear armour (except for non-AC bonuses).

With the AGMG method characters whose total dodge bonus is less than their armour's max DEX will still gain a benefit from armour. Since Armour Bonus + Max DEX is approximately the same (~8-9) for the better armours of each category, most characters except for the highest/lowest AC types can approach this limit pretty quickly. I would expect to see some characters thinking about whether to wear armour, even up to very high levels.

One thing to consider is that the UA system is based only on what armour profs the character type has, while the AGMG system seems to be arbitary choices designed to give each class the appropriate flavor. I think that the amazing dodge progression from AGMG is unnecessary, unjustified, and should be replaced with the good progression.

Overall I think that the AGMG system, together with situation that increases the players concerns about ACPs to Balance, Climb, and Swim (etc) would give you what you want.

That is exactly what I was looking for. The Advanced GamesMaster's Guide method it is then!

Thank you all who contributed to this thread.
Meikle_641
07-27-07, 07:58 PM Well Roog, are you really sure that's true? While yes, you do get a pretty good AC bonus and all, armour has some perks:

1) It's always there, whether you're awake, flatfooted, or alert.

2) You can get it enchanted with magical or psionic or whatever effects. You can't do that with your body, well, unless you institute the availability of magical tattoo items or something.

I feel that reason 2 is the main equalizer, but mainly at mid to high levels, since that's where the money is. Your big and burly fighter in fullplate can get fortification, bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, or many other things. Your unarmoured whatever cannot.

Edit: I'm a bit tired at the moment and haven't looked over UA carefully in a while now, but lease in dulge me here. What exactly are the exploits of this system? How is it abusable?
Roog
07-27-07, 08:28 PM Well Roog, are you really sure that's true? While yes, you do get a pretty good AC bonus and all, armour has some perks:

1) It's always there, whether you're awake, flatfooted, or alert.
But you may not be able to wear armour for many social occasions, and combat in social situations (or the middle of the night etc) is a common swashbuckling trope.

2) You can get it enchanted with magical or psionic or whatever effects. You can't do that with your body, well, unless you institute the availability of magical tattoo items or something.

I feel that reason 2 is the main equalizer, but mainly at mid to high levels, since that's where the money is. Your big and burly fighter in fullplate can get fortification, bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, or many other things. Your unarmoured whatever cannot.
Simple solution: Allow armour bonus and armour special ability items to be placed on any robe or suit of armor slot item.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dontgothere 06-20-07, 05:53 PM	Although I own a copy of the Unearthed Arcana supplement I am at a loss as to which Armor Class variant I should adapt for my swashbuckling game. The variant in the Unearthed Arcana book is good but I am taking a look at another variant in Green Ronin's Advanced GamesMasters Guide. The variant they present also looks pretty good. In a nutshell I am looking for a variant that does not do away with the armor rules but coincides with them and does not diminish characters who may choose to wear armor in warmer climates. I don't want to punish players who like armor but I still want the variant available for those who are more into the swashbuckling "Sinbad the sailor" type character. Any suggestions?
trapspringer 06-20-07, 05:57 PM	Make it a class option. Characters who are proficient with heavy armor in a standard setting choose either proficiency or armor bonus when they take the first level of the class. That choice may not be altered later.
Dontgothere 06-20-07, 06:12 PM	Make it a class option. Characters who are proficient with heavy armor in a standard setting choose either proficiency or armor bonus when they take the first level of the class. That choice may not be altered later. I don't mean to sound like an idiot but how would that work exactly?
True Cavalier 06-21-07, 04:44 AM	How about lots of ship combat? Some people will not want to wear a full plate when they have to climb on masts a lot, and then swim once they are in the water.
Dontgothere 06-21-07, 05:53 AM	How about lots of ship combat? Some people will not want to wear a full plate when they have to climb on masts a lot, and then swim once they are in the water. One probem: That does not really handle the lack of armor bonuses that they would regularly have. So what that would really do is put the PCs at a disadvantage. I like the class bonus thing. I just want to know how to work it in alongside the normal bonuses that characters get for wearing armor, since some of my players will still opt to wear armor and I do not want to knock them for it.
True Cavalier 06-21-07, 07:06 AM	Hmm, the Conan D20 rpg has interesting rules for characters without much armor. You could have a look at that; it differentiates between parrying and dodging armor class values. Armor is also part DR there. Though if you are climbing a thin rope ladder, or swashbuckling on top of the antenna a-la-pirates of the carribean 3, you are at an advantage if you have no armor, not disadvantage...
Dontgothere 06-21-07, 03:15 PM	How much is the Conan RPG?
trapspringer 06-21-07, 09:40 PM	I don't mean to sound like an idiot but how would that work exactly? You see the UA variant? The part where is says character gain AC bonuses based on... Yea. That. When they take their first level at character creation, they can decide to trade all armor proficiency for their indicated armor bonus. If they do, and they later take class levels in another class they again choose. If they take their armor proficiencies, they don't advance their class bonus to AC when taking levels in this new class. Obviously this is very abusable, but it would work well in a group with reasonable players.
Dontgothere 06-21-07, 11:17 PM	You see the UA variant? The part where is says character gain AC bonuses based on... Yea. That. When they take their first level at character creation, they can decide to trade all armor proficiency for their indicated armor bonus. If they do, and they later take class levels in another class they again choose. If they take their armor proficiencies, they don't advance their class bonus to AC when taking levels in this new class. Obviously this is very abusable, but it would work well in a group with reasonable players. I consider my group to be pretty reasonable. I'll check it out sometime.
The Edda 06-22-07, 06:35 AM	To throw a real spanner in the works, you could even go for the d20 Modern classes using advanced classes from Urban Arcana and the like... Not to everyone's taste of course, but it would certainly make the campaign less armour-focused.
trapspringer 06-22-07, 01:43 PM	To throw a real spanner in the works, you could even go for the d20 Modern classes using advanced classes from Urban Arcana and the like... Not to everyone's taste of course, but it would certainly make the campaign less armour-focused. Which might be valid, but in general, d20 classes aren't nearly as strong as 3.5 classes. That and the armor bonus system there is designed to function along with armor.
Archon of Light 06-22-07, 04:22 PM	This was something I also recently attempted to address for an upcoming swashbuckling campaign. I ended up scrapping a lot more ideas than coming up with any viable solutions. However, I did discover a few disadvantages already in the rules that made heavy armors in this kind of setting unfavorable. Here's what I wrote about it: The Hazards of Heavy Armors in a Swashbuckling Campaign Unlike most ‘typical’ fantasy campaigns, heavy armor is not very common in this particular kind of setting. The hot and humid climate makes it very uncomfortable to wear for any long periods of time, and can be potentially dangerous to the wearer. The longer a person continues to wear heavy, metallic armors, the greater the risk becomes. Without taking extraordinary measures and precautions, a person will eventually succumb to the perils of prolonged exposure to heat. These may include suffering from dehydration, exhaustion, and even heat stroke. For those who live or operate near open waters, however, the risk of drowning is a far more immediate danger. While wearing heavy armor, even a strong swimmer will be greatly impeded by wearing what is essentially an anchor. For this reason, it is not recommended to wear such armor on a ship where there is always a likely chance of falling overboard. In a fight, it is not uncommon for devious or cruel men to shove such a heavily armored opponent into a nearby body of shallow water. It only takes a few feet for the victim to find himself at the bottom and unable to reach the surface for air. Because of these potential hazards, most people simply avoid using heavy armors even when given the opportunity to do so. That is not to suggest that heavy armors do not exist or are never used at all. It is simply less practiced and not as common as other places. Gladiators, for example, need not fear these dangerous when putting on a short exhibition for a single fight on dry land. The extra protection will certainly benefit them by donning the armor for a short while. Adventurers, on the other hand, cannot simply ignore the potential for a greater defense, especially fighters, paladins, and clerics. Some will brave the risks, and the wise will learn to take certain precautions while doing so. A spell like endure elements, for example, will allow a person to wear the armors comfortably for as long as the spell lasts, or at least until it is dispelled. Even so, the spell provides little comfort to a drowning man. In game terms, you'll really want to enforce the rules on Heat Dangers (DMG, pg 303, or refer to the SRD). This affects all characters regardless of the armor they wear, but wearing heavy armor imposes a -4 save penalty. Also, you could have enemies attempt to bull rush heavily armored characters into the water, which could potentially drown the unsuspecting victim if they are unable to swim. In such a setting where tactics like this prove effective, almost anyone with average intelligence would employ them whenever the opportunity presents itself. And those wearing heavy armor are basically wearing a bullseye, inviting such tactics against them. Still, the armor class and combat system is somewhat frustrating in its design. Characters that are encouraged to wear lighter armors, or discouraged from wearing heavy ones, are also being compelled to place a higher emphasis on Dexterity scores in order to compensate for the lower armor class ratings. When it comes down to it, and the dice are hitting the table, mobility and being able to swing around the mast will not affect the outcome of a battle as your basic defensive value against the enemy's attack roll. Without modifying the entire combat system, or redefining how Armor Class and armors work, I can offer one simple solution. This should fit all the criteria you were looking for, and shouldn't unbalance the game as long as you remember to also apply it for the NPCs and monsters. The Combat Defense Modifier (Variant Rule) An armed combatant can defend himself with his weapon by parrying, blocking, and turning aside an enemy's attacks. This skill increases with the character's combat prowess, which is represented by his base attack bonus. Characters recieve a +1 Defense bonus to his Armor Class for every four (+4) BAB points acquired when gaining levels. The Defense Bonus: A character can only gain his defense bonus while armed with a proficient melee weapon, or if unarmed and has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or ability. Without a proficient weapon in hand, or unable to use his improved unarmed strike ability, the character loses this defense bonus. Because this ability requires the character to be able to move and act freely to defend himself, he also loses this bonus whenever he is denied his Dexterity bonus, such as being caught flat-footed, immobolized, or prone. This benefit counts against the maximum Dexterity bonus limit of any armor that the character wears. Thus, a character can never have a combined Defense and Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class that is greater than the allowed maximum Dexterity bonus for his armor. Any excessive bonus points are dropped from the Defense bonus first. Example: A character with a 16 Dex (+3) and a +9 BAB (+2 Defense) wearing Leather Armor (+6 max Dex bonus) will enjoy a +5 bonus to Armor Class from his Dexterity score and his Defense bonus (as long as he is armed with a weapon in which he is proficient with). But if that character decides to put on a Chain Shirt (+4 max Dex bonus), then he will only recieve a +4 bonus to AC (+3 from Dex, but only +1 from Defense). Of course, you may want to introduce a few new feats, like... NEW FEAT Improved Weapon Defense [General] Choose one type of weapon that you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike as your weapon for purposes of this feat, but only if you also have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. You are especially good at defending yourself with your weapon of focus. Prerequisites: +10 base attack bonus, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus in chosen weapon Benefit: Whenever you are armed with your chosen weapon, you may exceed the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor worn by 1 for the purposes of determing your combined Dexterity and Defense modifiers. This effect does not stack if weilding more than one weapon with which the character has this feat. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Improved Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Dontgothere 07-18-07, 10:00 PM	You see the UA variant? The part where is says character gain AC bonuses based on... Yea. That. When they take their first level at character creation, they can decide to trade all armor proficiency for their indicated armor bonus. If they do, and they later take class levels in another class they again choose. If they take their armor proficiencies, they don't advance their class bonus to AC when taking levels in this new class. Obviously this is very abusable, but it would work well in a group with reasonable players. So basically each time they go into a class they must choose between armor proficiency and the class defense bonus?
trapspringer 07-19-07, 12:21 AM	That's the scheme. Unfortunately, like I said, it opens up some moderate abuse-ability options, but nothing too serious.
Roog 07-19-07, 04:15 AM	Although I own a copy of the Unearthed Arcana supplement I am at a loss as to which Armor Class variant I should adapt for my swashbuckling game. The variant in the Unearthed Arcana book is good but I am taking a look at another variant in Green Ronin's Advanced GamesMasters Guide. The variant they present also looks pretty good. In a nutshell I am looking for a variant that does not do away with the armor rules but coincides with them and does not diminish characters who may choose to wear armor in warmer climates. I don't want to punish players who like armor but I still want the variant available for those who are more into the swashbuckling "Sinbad the sailor" type character. Any suggestions? Ideally you don't want to force characters to make awkward decisions like "do I want to ever where armour" to early in the game. After looking at the 2 sources I suspect that they will give slightly different effects. With the UA method the defense bonus quickly outclasses the possible armour bonus to AC for all but the most low-DEX-heavy-armour characters. Up to level 5 a character may want to wear plate, but after level 8 no character would want to wear armour (except for non-AC bonuses). With the AGMG method characters whose total dodge bonus is less than their armour's max DEX will still gain a benefit from armour. Since Armour Bonus + Max DEX is approximately the same (~8-9) for the better armours of each category, most characters except for the highest/lowest AC types can approach this limit pretty quickly. I would expect to see some characters thinking about whether to wear armour, even up to very high levels. One thing to consider is that the UA system is based only on what armour profs the character type has, while the AGMG system seems to be arbitary choices designed to give each class the appropriate flavor. I think that the amazing dodge progression from AGMG is unnecessary, unjustified, and should be replaced with the good progression. Overall I think that the AGMG system, together with situation that increases the players concerns about ACPs to Balance, Climb, and Swim (etc) would give you what you want.
Dontgothere 07-19-07, 03:19 PM	Ideally you don't want to force characters to make awkward decisions like "do I want to ever where armour" to early in the game. After looking at the 2 sources I suspect that they will give slightly different effects. With the UA method the defense bonus quickly outclasses the possible armour bonus to AC for all but the most low-DEX-heavy-armour characters. Up to level 5 a character may want to wear plate, but after level 8 no character would want to wear armour (except for non-AC bonuses). With the AGMG method characters whose total dodge bonus is less than their armour's max DEX will still gain a benefit from armour. Since Armour Bonus + Max DEX is approximately the same (~8-9) for the better armours of each category, most characters except for the highest/lowest AC types can approach this limit pretty quickly. I would expect to see some characters thinking about whether to wear armour, even up to very high levels. One thing to consider is that the UA system is based only on what armour profs the character type has, while the AGMG system seems to be arbitary choices designed to give each class the appropriate flavor. I think that the amazing dodge progression from AGMG is unnecessary, unjustified, and should be replaced with the good progression. Overall I think that the AGMG system, together with situation that increases the players concerns about ACPs to Balance, Climb, and Swim (etc) would give you what you want. That is exactly what I was looking for. The Advanced GamesMaster's Guide method it is then! Thank you all who contributed to this thread.
Meikle_641 07-27-07, 07:58 PM	Well Roog, are you really sure that's true? While yes, you do get a pretty good AC bonus and all, armour has some perks: 1) It's always there, whether you're awake, flatfooted, or alert. 2) You can get it enchanted with magical or psionic or whatever effects. You can't do that with your body, well, unless you institute the availability of magical tattoo items or something. I feel that reason 2 is the main equalizer, but mainly at mid to high levels, since that's where the money is. Your big and burly fighter in fullplate can get fortification, bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, or many other things. Your unarmoured whatever cannot. Edit: I'm a bit tired at the moment and haven't looked over UA carefully in a while now, but lease in dulge me here. What exactly are the exploits of this system? How is it abusable?
Roog 07-27-07, 08:28 PM	Well Roog, are you really sure that's true? While yes, you do get a pretty good AC bonus and all, armour has some perks: 1) It's always there, whether you're awake, flatfooted, or alert. But you may not be able to wear armour for many social occasions, and combat in social situations (or the middle of the night etc) is a common swashbuckling trope. 2) You can get it enchanted with magical or psionic or whatever effects. You can't do that with your body, well, unless you institute the availability of magical tattoo items or something. I feel that reason 2 is the main equalizer, but mainly at mid to high levels, since that's where the money is. Your big and burly fighter in fullplate can get fortification, bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, or many other things. Your unarmoured whatever cannot. Simple solution: Allow armour bonus and armour special ability items to be placed on any robe or suit of armor slot item.