Taking Metamagic Multiple Times [Archive] - Wizards Community

Taking Metamagic Multiple Times [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Riznar
05-14-04, 03:36 PM What if you took a metamagic feat a second time, and you got to choose from the following modifications to be made to it?

1: You can apply the metamagic twice. (Double empowering, etc...)
2: -1 to the spell level increase (minimum 1)
3: Normal casting time for spontanious casters

Thoughts? Anyone?
davepu92
05-16-04, 04:45 PM #1 I would simply allow someone to apply the same metamagic to a spell more than once and stack the level penalty without an extra feat. There's only a few that would benefit and, after only a little thought, I don't think it's imbalanced...and double 1.5 is 2, 2 is 3, (D&D-style, not math-style).
#2 Maybe OK, but only once.
#3 Might be a little generous.
Veton
05-16-04, 07:33 PM Originally posted by Riznar
2: -1 to the spell level increase (minimum 1)

This is an Epic feat, so I wouldn't do that.
strenoth
05-16-04, 09:48 PM Actually Veton, the Epic Feat applies to ALL metamagics, not to a specific metamagic feat. So this would be less than the Epic, so possibly allowable.

#1 is the default I thought for 3.5
MithrilWyrm
05-17-04, 10:41 PM The default is taking the feat only once.

Frankly, I find them all interesting. As a DM, I'd probably examine them in more detail, playtest and see if I can find any brokenness, then create a feat which allowed the effects that I decided to keep.

For example, I think that a feat which lowered all metamagic slot adjustments by one (to a minimum of one) would be good, especially as many characters would be epic before it really became an issue. If you really thought it'd be too powerful early one, make the prerequisites such that no one below level 18-20 qualifies. Ditto for a seperate feat that reduced the full round casting time to a standard action for the meta-deprived spontaneous casters..

I'd still make them take the feat again if I ruled that stacking effects was valid. That sort of thing doesn't seem to have a common thread, like the other two do, where you're essentially improving all metamagic in the same way.
bitnine
05-18-04, 12:16 AM Of the listed options, the only one that I'd immediately shy away from is #2. I have the sense that there could be some... unpleasantness.
Riznar
05-18-04, 01:25 AM Originally posted by MithrilWyrm
The default is taking the feat only once.

Frankly, I find them all interesting. As a DM, I'd probably examine them in more detail, playtest and see if I can find any brokenness, then create a feat which allowed the effects that I decided to keep.

For example, I think that a feat which lowered all metamagic slot adjustments by one (to a minimum of one) would be good, especially as many characters would be epic before it really became an issue. If you really thought it'd be too powerful early one, make the prerequisites such that no one below level 18-20 qualifies. Ditto for a seperate feat that reduced the full round casting time to a standard action for the meta-deprived spontaneous casters..

I'd still make them take the feat again if I ruled that stacking effects was valid. That sort of thing doesn't seem to have a common thread, like the other two do, where you're essentially improving all metamagic in the same way.

Err, I'm not sure if you're just speaking hypothetically, but what I purposed works for a single metamagic at a time...
MithrilWyrm
05-18-04, 01:40 AM I understand that. But I think with options 2 and 3, if they are allowable at all which is up to a DM and will vary between campaigns, making them one feat for each effect makes more sense.

Once again, that is how it makes sense to me, and in any game that I've been in/run. It makes more sense to me to have a separate feat each that accomplishes 2 and 3 for all metamagic, and reserve 1 for taking the individual feats twice. If I remember correctly, #2 is a feat, not sure if it's straight up WotC or 3rd party; I could easily see something like that for 3 as well. So why would a player take that single metamagic again when, in a level or so, he can apply that effect to all metamagic feats?

So 1 and 3 are the only options likely to be taken, with one as the most easily balanced one. 3... it's just hard to say how it would balance. I happen to think spontaneous caster's get the shaft way too often, so I'd allow an effect like this, but as a seperate feat.

So I guess #1 is my favored option, the only one that makes sense to really come from doubling up on the feat. That is what you were after, right? Thoughts on the matter?
Thelon Fairblade
05-18-04, 08:54 AM If the only effect of taking the feat once was

#1 (may double up on a single spell), absolutely fine. I think it is a major loss of versatility, so it is just peachy-keen balanced.

#2 (reduces cost by 1 level, min 1).... this is probably okay, although in a grey area... you did sacrifice an extra feat to get that Empower at +1 spell level, but I foresee a *lot* of Empowered spells coming my way (as DM) now. Definately *not* stackable with #1, or any similar PrC ability. Almost want to limit this to 1/day, or maybe (spellcasting stat modifier)/day.

#3 (no extra time required): craptastic. What a waste of a feat.
MithrilWyrm
05-18-04, 06:02 PM Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade
#3 (no extra time required): craptastic. What a waste of a feat.

Not as a sorceror/bard. For a starter, Quicken is no longer a wasted feat. And it's only spontaneous caster that this works for, anyway. It really ought to be a feat... you can debate it's usefullnes but I think that just means it isn't unbalanced.
Thelon Fairblade
05-19-04, 09:54 AM Just remember the extra time to use metamagic only means your spell takes your standard action + your move action. It doesn't make it a "1 full round" casting time (i.e. doesn't take effect until next round, like a Summon Monster spell).

I think Quicken Spell is overrated too, but I will admit I've never played at high enough levels to see it be worthwhile (a 5th level slot on Magic Missile rarely changes the course of a battle...)
Slippery Mind II
05-20-04, 11:14 AM I thnk all are good ideas. #1: I would only allow once per addition of the feat (empowered feat 3 times means you can empower a spell 3 times, giving 2x the dice.) #2: Since it only works on one metamagic feat, it seems balanced. #3, erm, well, I don't play sponaneous casters that much, so... Not sure how I feel about it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Riznar 05-14-04, 03:36 PM	What if you took a metamagic feat a second time, and you got to choose from the following modifications to be made to it? 1: You can apply the metamagic twice. (Double empowering, etc...) 2: -1 to the spell level increase (minimum 1) 3: Normal casting time for spontanious casters Thoughts? Anyone?
davepu92 05-16-04, 04:45 PM	#1 I would simply allow someone to apply the same metamagic to a spell more than once and stack the level penalty without an extra feat. There's only a few that would benefit and, after only a little thought, I don't think it's imbalanced...and double 1.5 is 2, 2 is 3, (D&D-style, not math-style). #2 Maybe OK, but only once. #3 Might be a little generous.
Veton 05-16-04, 07:33 PM	Originally posted by Riznar 2: -1 to the spell level increase (minimum 1) This is an Epic feat, so I wouldn't do that.
strenoth 05-16-04, 09:48 PM	Actually Veton, the Epic Feat applies to ALL metamagics, not to a specific metamagic feat. So this would be less than the Epic, so possibly allowable. #1 is the default I thought for 3.5
MithrilWyrm 05-17-04, 10:41 PM	The default is taking the feat only once. Frankly, I find them all interesting. As a DM, I'd probably examine them in more detail, playtest and see if I can find any brokenness, then create a feat which allowed the effects that I decided to keep. For example, I think that a feat which lowered all metamagic slot adjustments by one (to a minimum of one) would be good, especially as many characters would be epic before it really became an issue. If you really thought it'd be too powerful early one, make the prerequisites such that no one below level 18-20 qualifies. Ditto for a seperate feat that reduced the full round casting time to a standard action for the meta-deprived spontaneous casters.. I'd still make them take the feat again if I ruled that stacking effects was valid. That sort of thing doesn't seem to have a common thread, like the other two do, where you're essentially improving all metamagic in the same way.
bitnine 05-18-04, 12:16 AM	Of the listed options, the only one that I'd immediately shy away from is #2. I have the sense that there could be some... unpleasantness.
Riznar 05-18-04, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by MithrilWyrm The default is taking the feat only once. Frankly, I find them all interesting. As a DM, I'd probably examine them in more detail, playtest and see if I can find any brokenness, then create a feat which allowed the effects that I decided to keep. For example, I think that a feat which lowered all metamagic slot adjustments by one (to a minimum of one) would be good, especially as many characters would be epic before it really became an issue. If you really thought it'd be too powerful early one, make the prerequisites such that no one below level 18-20 qualifies. Ditto for a seperate feat that reduced the full round casting time to a standard action for the meta-deprived spontaneous casters.. I'd still make them take the feat again if I ruled that stacking effects was valid. That sort of thing doesn't seem to have a common thread, like the other two do, where you're essentially improving all metamagic in the same way. Err, I'm not sure if you're just speaking hypothetically, but what I purposed works for a single metamagic at a time...
MithrilWyrm 05-18-04, 01:40 AM	I understand that. But I think with options 2 and 3, if they are allowable at all which is up to a DM and will vary between campaigns, making them one feat for each effect makes more sense. Once again, that is how it makes sense to me, and in any game that I've been in/run. It makes more sense to me to have a separate feat each that accomplishes 2 and 3 for all metamagic, and reserve 1 for taking the individual feats twice. If I remember correctly, #2 is a feat, not sure if it's straight up WotC or 3rd party; I could easily see something like that for 3 as well. So why would a player take that single metamagic again when, in a level or so, he can apply that effect to all metamagic feats? So 1 and 3 are the only options likely to be taken, with one as the most easily balanced one. 3... it's just hard to say how it would balance. I happen to think spontaneous caster's get the shaft way too often, so I'd allow an effect like this, but as a seperate feat. So I guess #1 is my favored option, the only one that makes sense to really come from doubling up on the feat. That is what you were after, right? Thoughts on the matter?
Thelon Fairblade 05-18-04, 08:54 AM	If the only effect of taking the feat once was #1 (may double up on a single spell), absolutely fine. I think it is a major loss of versatility, so it is just peachy-keen balanced. #2 (reduces cost by 1 level, min 1).... this is probably okay, although in a grey area... you did sacrifice an extra feat to get that Empower at +1 spell level, but I foresee a lot of Empowered spells coming my way (as DM) now. Definately not stackable with #1, or any similar PrC ability. Almost want to limit this to 1/day, or maybe (spellcasting stat modifier)/day. #3 (no extra time required): craptastic. What a waste of a feat.
MithrilWyrm 05-18-04, 06:02 PM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade #3 (no extra time required): craptastic. What a waste of a feat. Not as a sorceror/bard. For a starter, Quicken is no longer a wasted feat. And it's only spontaneous caster that this works for, anyway. It really ought to be a feat... you can debate it's usefullnes but I think that just means it isn't unbalanced.
Thelon Fairblade 05-19-04, 09:54 AM	Just remember the extra time to use metamagic only means your spell takes your standard action + your move action. It doesn't make it a "1 full round" casting time (i.e. doesn't take effect until next round, like a Summon Monster spell). I think Quicken Spell is overrated too, but I will admit I've never played at high enough levels to see it be worthwhile (a 5th level slot on Magic Missile rarely changes the course of a battle...)
Slippery Mind II 05-20-04, 11:14 AM	I thnk all are good ideas. #1: I would only allow once per addition of the feat (empowered feat 3 times means you can empower a spell 3 times, giving 2x the dice.) #2: Since it only works on one metamagic feat, it seems balanced. #3, erm, well, I don't play sponaneous casters that much, so... Not sure how I feel about it.