Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcane Guyver 08-01-07, 01:28 AM	Well, after listening to the latest D&D podcast, I felt inspired to take another look at this class. This is kind of just me thinking out loud here...any suggestions or comments are welcome. The spellcasting really sucks at 1st level, unnecessarily so. It seems like a simple enough thing to bump it up, so they get 0 1st-level spells/day at 1st level, resulting in 3 1st-level spells/day and 4 1st-level spells known at 4th (but they still don't get 4/day until 15th). This will only effect early-level bard play. Bards are proficient with shields, but still suffer ASF from them. Don't think it'd be too unbalancing to let them ignore ASF from light shields. Bardic music uses per day is kinda strange. They start with too few at 1st level, and an unnecessary number at later levels. Perhaps this could be changed to a number of uses of bardic music per day equal to half Bard level + Cha bonus. Finally...perhaps they could get the 'Lore Song' Dungeonscape ability for free (without sacking Bardic Knowledge/Bardic Knack) as a direct powerup, perhaps in exchange for the reduced number of bardic music uses per day at later levels. Actually, now that I think about it, eliminating Bardic Knowledge at 1st level, and granting Bardic Knack at 2nd (no longer rounding it up, as stated in Player's Handbook II) might help balance out the increased 1st-level power, and give bards something to look forward at 2nd level.
Me, Myself, & 101 others 08-01-07, 02:29 AM	I honestly think bards should be improved to have a full caster progression, all the way up to ninth level. The limited spellcasting is a relic from 2nd ed, but the need for it has passed. The bard's stated role is to be a "jack of all trades" character, but that role has pretty much been usurped by the factotum (and the chamealon prestige class, but let's leave prestige out of this). In pretty much all other respects, bard's also be surpassed. Diplomacy/Face character? Rogue, Factotum, and Beguiler call all do this better. Armored caster? Battle sorc, warmage, duskblade, hexblade, and beguiler all allow arcane spells in armor now (again, not to mention numerous prestige). And so on. In fact, let's look at the beguiler. This is one of my favorite new classes. I've called it "bard without the stigma" before, and it fits. Excepting the healing spells, beguilers have a spell list very similar to bards, but the beguiler has many more spells "known" because they get their entire list. They also cast more spells per day, and their casting stat also gets them extra skill points. They can also wear armor, and use a similar list of weapons. They've got the same hitdice. And, special abilities all of their own. In exchange they lose a little BAB and a reflex save. There are other classes that get full arcane power coupled with other benefits, too. Most of them also outshine the bard. Like, warmage, this is a pretty limited class, their spell list is almost as truncated as the bard's. But, they can supplement this with advanced learning, they (like beguilers) know every spell on their list, and they cast more spells per day. Add to that sudden feats and warmage edge. While not arcane, the archivist is another new caster class that seems to outshine the bard. With all these other classes with full caster progression, plus several special and unique abilities, I think the bard has been very over-shadowed. It's pretty much been regulated to a flavor class. If they advanced to 9th level spells, in a list similar to what they have now, I think they'd be a lot more appealing without being broke. Keep their spells per day at the same max, and their max spells known per level the same too. But have them get access at the same rate a sorcerer would, and create a list of 7th, 8th, and 9th level bard spells.
zephyrTR 08-01-07, 03:23 PM	I feel like if you're not using all the non-core base classes, bard is perfectly fine. I always suggest them for groups bigger than 4.
Arcane Guyver 08-01-07, 08:26 PM	I always suggest them for groups bigger than 4. I feel that's part of the problem. It shouldn't be a matter of "This class is sweet...as the 5th member of a team," but rather "this class is excellent for the 'Stealth' portion of a 4-man team." This isn't a problem newly introduced due to new classes, but one that's been there since 3e was released.
Thakowsaizmu 08-02-07, 07:09 AM	Bard has always been one of my favourite classes. If made right, you really have a very well rounded and often interesting character. Then again a few of my favourite characters were Bards, so I guess I am prone to think that they are interesting. I don't really think they need full casting, but a few bonus feats wouldn't hurt the class any.
CaoSlayer 08-02-07, 11:06 AM	I feel that's part of the problem. It shouldn't be a matter of "This class is sweet...as the 5th member of a team," but rather "this class is excellent for the 'Stealth' portion of a 4-man team." This isn't a problem newly introduced due to new classes, but one that's been there since 3e was released. Well, the trouble isnt that the bard class dont fit in a four members party, the trouble is that he cant totally replace a member of a rogue/cleric/fighter/wizard party, but he is perfectly fine in a bard/druid/beguiler/barbarian party by example, or a rogue/bard/druid/sorcerer or a duskblade/warlock/scout/bard party or like in my last group a party of bard/rogue/paladin/monk. Bards are unconventional adventurers for an unconventional party, these days with about 20 core classes is very rare to find a rogue/cleric/wizard/fighter party.
PurinaDragonChow 08-02-07, 11:12 AM	I like the bard class, too. Question, though - would anyone play a bard through to 20th level? I personally see no reason not to go Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1, then advance the SubChord spell progression with Virtuoso. You trade a few points of BAB for 7th through 9th level spells and access to additional 4th through 6th level spells. And you still have a crapload of bardic music uses per day.
Thakowsaizmu 08-03-07, 06:35 AM	Question, though - would anyone play a bard through to 20th level? Gladly! Although I have never been much for multi-classing, and I hate almost every PrC I've ever seen. Unfortunately for me, the highest I've gotten with a Bard is 12th level before the game kind of died.
CaoSlayer 08-03-07, 10:20 AM	Well Bard is like monks and rangers and in a lesser extent rogues in that they gain so many features or improvements with each level that when you take a level on a prc, you just lose something. Some in some bardic prc you lose bab, in other you lose skill points, in others you lose spells and in others you lose bardic music, you always lose something. Stray bard without dipping is meant to be an generalist character able to fight, cast and sing decently well in the other hand bardic prcs like warchanter just make you a great fighter, a well singer but an awful caster or sublime chord makes you a great caster, mediocre singer and lousy fighter. Of course, sublime chord have a design flaw, shared with ur-priest, with two levels you gain the best benefit of the prc and you give up little from stray bard, but that is a flaw of the prc not the core class.
Arcane Guyver 08-03-07, 12:47 PM	So a bard can be a decent 4th-member of a team, so long as the team isn't iconic. I dunno how I feel about that. In my mind, the bard should be fine as a replacement for the rogue (acting slightly more as support than trapkiller). Guess it all comes down to 'what can they do.' The Rogue & Bard are built almost identically, with the following differences. 1st level Rogue - +1d6 sneak attack = sweet combat nectar, except against zombies & skeletons. Has trapfinding, but most traps have such crazy-high DCs that 1st-level characters can't do anything to them except set them off. 2 more skills per level, though they will probably be used for Disable Device & Search. 1st level Bard - Has a good Will save (excellent), bardic knowledge (as useful as the DM wants it to be...), two cantrips per day (useful..?), slightly better equipment profs (shields, whips & longswords!). Their claim to fame is bardic music, a once/day ability with up to three different effects. At least one skill will be used on Perform, and Charisma is a necessity. I don't think bards are unplayable, but could use a little low-level boosting to help them act in their chosen role.
nastynate 08-03-07, 08:18 PM	I tend to agree with the posters saying that a bard fits poorly into a traditional 4 man party. They can't actually replace any of the iconic roles, so the party tends to come up short unless they have somebody else who can fill more than one iconic role at once, like the druid (fighter & divine spellcaster). Basically a bard is a great support character, but he's most effective in parties with people to actually support, so he functions better in large parties (those bigger than the 4-man standard). Now with the right optimization the bard can fill an iconic role, but you have to jump through hoops, pulling feats, prestige classes, spells, gear, and so forth from a dozen different source books, just to make him competent. Too much effort to make it worth your while when you have options like the beguiler out there already. As far as a fix is concerned, you're almost better off changing one of the bard-like class that already does work (archivist, chameleon, beguiler) to make it feel more like a bard, than you are to try to patch up the bard itself.
Kintara 08-04-07, 04:15 AM	So a bard can be a decent 4th-member of a team, so long as the team isn't iconic. I dunno how I feel about that. In my mind, the bard should be fine as a replacement for the rogue (acting slightly more as support than trapkiller). Guess it all comes down to 'what can they do.' The Rogue & Bard are built almost identically, with the following differences. 1st level Rogue - +1d6 sneak attack = sweet combat nectar, except against zombies & skeletons. Has trapfinding, but most traps have such crazy-high DCs that 1st-level characters can't do anything to them except set them off. 2 more skills per level, though they will probably be used for Disable Device & Search. 1st level Bard - Has a good Will save (excellent), bardic knowledge (as useful as the DM wants it to be...), two cantrips per day (useful..?), slightly better equipment profs (shields, whips & longswords!). Their claim to fame is bardic music, a once/day ability with up to three different effects. At least one skill will be used on Perform, and Charisma is a necessity. I don't think bards are unplayable, but could use a little low-level boosting to help them act in their chosen role.The environment at level one is tricky though. Often Bards are sniping in back with a bow, or will even be Strength-based melee fighters. At level 1, that's a good thing because of the lack of Weapon Finesse. It can't be taken by Rogues or Bards until after level 1. Rogues often end up sitting in back and plinking with their bows because at least they have a shot at hitting with a ranged weapon (also, it's safer). That means they might only get a couple sneak attacks in while the enemies are still surprised or flat-footed, which means that Inspire Courage has a decent shot at affecting the game just as much or more than Sneak Attack does (even though it's only a once/day ability). What it's all really about it applicability. Inspire Courage hits everyone in the group for 5+ rounds (possibly multiple encounters if the Bard can justify continuing his song) with +1 attack and damage. If there are four encounters, Sneak Attack might only have a shot to go off 4 times (maybe a surprise round and three first rounds where the Rogue has a shot at a flat-footed opponent susceptible to such damage). If you do the math, you'll see that there's a decent chance the Inspire Courage will deal as much overall damage as all the Sneak Attacks the Rogue makes in a day (though it does cost an action to activate). In melee, the shield proficiency goes a long way, and the longsword proficiency basically adds an average of one point of damage to the Bard's attacks. If he's not strength-based, then he's at least got a decent AC (Dex + shield). If he is, then he's probably got significantly better attack bonus than the Rogue and more reliable damage. How's that for Devil's Advocate? ;) Seriously, though, I'm totally on board for including light shields when ignoring ASF. At least one more Bardic Music use would also be nice. I'm not sure about the spellcasting, though.
Arcane Guyver 08-04-07, 01:38 PM	I'm not sure about the spellcasting, though. Actually, I thought the magic bump was one of the more innocuous changes, as it only affects the first four levels (and disappears at 5th). Seriously, look at the spells/day & spells known, comparing 1st level progression to 2nd-4th. Anyays, thanks for the response, and you bring up valid points. Bards will have better AC due to using a shield, and will do better damage with better weapons. They probably don't even need that 'lore song' ability (though it's a nice personal-only booster that eliminates many dead levels).
CCS 08-08-07, 01:57 PM	I like the bard class, too. Question, though - would anyone play a bard through to 20th level? Yes. In the game I'm in on Sunday evening, though I'm a bard/fifgter gestalt, I have every intention of reaching 20th lv+. And I'm not planning to use any Prc (I've yet to read one that'd fit my character or that I even like). And had my Monday night game had continued I'd have reached 20th lv+ as a single classed, non-prc, bard as well. Unfortunately we stopped that one at 10th - though we did allow for it to be resumed.