Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khementari 05-18-06, 03:03 PM	**BEFORE POSTING** Read the entire thread and if you wish to join us PLEASE stay on topic! Your thoughts are more than welcome. Let's imagine we have the d20 system(which we do) and we can modify it in any way we want(which we can). Given the oportunity to rebirth the four basic food groups(fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) in your own image, how would you do it? A few ground rules should be in play - Feats, their existence, and rate of accumulation are not a part of any class advancement. Bonus Feats are not an acceptable reward for gaining class levels. - Spells themselves are not part of class development(for the wizard and cleric) and should be assumed to have similar ideals to what we all know of their respective archetype. - Don't be pressured into giving a class an ability just because that's the ability they get in d20, i.e. Sneak Attack. If you envision your rogue-like class differently then make it so. Create a new mechanic or two. Try your best to ignore what d20 has proposed for these classes. Be creative, but try to retain a balance against monster CR. Rename the four standard classes and include flavor to introduce our audience to your ideas. Persuade the skill system to work in a different way or use your imagination to make casting magic more fun then once per day. This is not a thread intended to rehash Feat progressions or the greatest PrC combonations. This is a thread where there are no PrC's but we can make the four main classes shine the way we want them to, even if it's just for exercise. Let's get rolling!
Rhomphaia 05-19-06, 08:32 AM	I'll bite. This will give me something to work on this weekend. I do have a couple of questions though. First, about spells, do you or do you not want a spells/day progression list? Do you want spells at all or are you interesting in something more like the warlock, which gets spell-like abilities instead? Also, for bonus feats, what if a feat was a class feature? Say for example that at level three, a rogue got the Dodge feat (or an ability akin to it) as a class feature? On those two questions, I am assuming you do not want spells or feats at all, but you were a bit unclear. I do have another question as well. Is a vancian method for class features alright? An example of this would be the smite evil ability of a paladin, usable only X times per day.
Khementari 05-19-06, 02:08 PM	First, about spells, do you or do you not want a spells/day progression list? I want to retain the idea that the wizard and cleric-type classes have spellcasting. How you do it, whether by a spells/day system or something more creative is up to you. Do you want spells at all or are you interesting in something more like the warlock, which gets spell-like abilities instead? Imagine a fully functional spellcaster, but one that has class abilities that define the function of the class. Also, for bonus feats, what if a feat was a class feature? Say for example that at level three, a rogue got the Dodge feat (or an ability akin to it) as a class feature? Let's say that any class feature should be unique to the class. Feats as a class feature or Feat replication is not allowed. This is your chance to create(and yes, an ability akin to it might work if you can make it class defining with your own style)! Is a vancian method for class features alright? An example of this would be the smite evil ability of a paladin, usable only X times per day. If that method fits your vision of how the four basic food groups should work then use it. If you can work out a different way to contain class features then feel free to explore that. This could turn out to be very interesting and I thank you, Rhomphaia, for jumping on board. I am wrestling with these ideas myself :) . I know many people delight in combining classes, races, feats and PrC's to come up with the "best" characters in the game. I don't want to stop whatever fun they are having by thinking up classes and posting them over on the class board. This is more like a think-tank for rewriting D&D. Looking at the classes in the PHB makes me sigh sometimes. Why would anyone ever be a level 20 rogue? Somewhere along the line D&D became a math equation and it really sucks the fun right out of the game. This task IS more daunting then it seems. I have my own vision of how D&D would look tailored to my style but it is very much a work in progress. I started working out all these new class ideas and made out the tables from level 1 to 20. Before long I realized that it would take a lot of time and effort to create and balance. So I found inspiration in an old red boxed-set. I cut each class down to levels 1 to 5 to gain some perspective. Maybe that can help you too. One other note: My fighter is called the Battler. He is not just a guy with a sword that runs around slashing things and he is not loaded with Feats instead of class abilities. He has class features and a skill list that is much more suited to how I feel a warrior should be. He is not perfect, he changes just a little bit every time I open his file, and he's far, far from complete. Hopefully, maybe with inspiration found here, my Battler will one day see actual combat in the hands of one of my players. I hope I can help you find your Battler too!
starfire311 05-19-06, 02:27 PM	1st off. I want to say, this can end up being a very cool thread. 2nd... I really like the bonus feat mechanic, I thinkit is brilliant, but I will try to abide by these rules... although I really really want to give my Priest access to feats or abilities that replicate feats, like akin war domain granting bonus weapon focus feat.... Anyway I will try to abide your rules, but if I really want to give him weapon focus he is getting it :fight!:
jagggar 05-19-06, 03:27 PM	When you're talkin' about the four food groups, those are just groups, right? Or are we limited to just four? The rogue seems nice and all, but I've got the idea of a social skill-monkey with a good Will like the NPC Expert. Wouldn't be much good in a dungeon though, more a political intrigue character type. Honestly? I think my ideal caster has no concept of the difference between divine or arcane magic. I've always liked the idea of the four elements (earth, air, fire, and water) and I loved the Quest 64 magic system based upon them. One caster whose spells known depends upon the element(s) he focuses on. Maybe it would be 4 classes for D&D, I don't know. Spells would of course focus on their element and a general category of magic. Earth spells would focus on physical damage and defense. Air on movement and. . . I've never really put points in air before. . . . Fire is, well, fire. Water is healing. You'd get different spells by combining the different elements together.
Khementari 05-19-06, 03:49 PM	Anyway I will try to abide your rules, but if I really want to give him weapon focus he is getting it :fight!: Imagine for a moment that Feats do not exist, at least in this step of creation. Surely they are out there and I know that it is hard to shrug off the mechanics of d20 D&D but here is your chance to think of a new way of being that priestly-type character. Perhaps you have a different idea from the standard domain-based cleric? If you were a priest wouldn't you really rather have an interesting number of powers unique to your class instead of being given a Feat which any character could also have just by picking it at that section of character creation? Stretch your wings a little, you can do it! Another note: In redefining the heart of the game we have no need to uphold the standard rate at which a character would gain Feats or Ability Score improvements. Although I'm not a fan of the massive amount of Feats that WoC has produced I also realize that there is the potential to create intuitive Feats that could embrace the way that you(we...any of us) develops classes. In my own vision for D&D a character would gain Feats at a much greater rate simply because there should be many options for a person to customize their character(such as Weapon Focus). And another note: Remember that this is all being created in a bubble. There are no PrC's to qualify for. Make these classes rich and flavorful(but be sure to keep their power in check).
Khementari 05-19-06, 04:04 PM	When you're talkin' about the four food groups, those are just groups, right? Or are we limited to just four? I am specifically saying that at the heart of D&D there is the fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric. Take those 4 ideals, destroy(in your mind) what wizards has published for us, and use the d20 system to create those 4 ideals the way you feel they should be represented. The rogue seems nice and all, but I've got the idea of a social skill-monkey with a good Will like the NPC Expert. Wouldn't be much good in a dungeon though, more a political intrigue character type. Think of it this way: You need to entirely replace the rogue class with something that upholds the archetype to your standards. I like your idea of being social and skill based, but I truely think that any class should be able to be that if they want to, and my personal skill system will represent that. A D&D class should have some way to kick ass and take names above all things. Else, how would we get out of the dungeon? Your ideas about magic are headed in a good direction. I would like to keep the idea of one caster getting his power from his own knowledge/skill(wizard-type) and the other caster getting his power from something greater then himself(cleric-type) -- but if you feel strongly that your class could successfully fullfil both roles for your world then give it a go!
jagggar 05-19-06, 04:52 PM	Think of it this way: You need to entirely replace the rogue class with something that upholds the archetype to your standards. I like your idea of being social and skill based, but I truely think that any class should be able to be that if they want to, and my personal skill system will represent that. A D&D class should have some way to kick ass and take names above all things. Else, how would we get out of the dungeon?Well if we can get someone else to go in for us and yet still reap the rewards ourselves. . . . Hmmm. . . Interested in seeing the skill system you come up with. As is, it seems like some skills are useless if you don't have them at max ranks. Your ideas about magic are headed in a good direction. I would like to keep the idea of one caster getting his power from his own knowledge/skill(wizard-type) and the other caster getting his power from something greater then himself(cleric-type) -- but if you feel strongly that your class could successfully fullfil both roles for your world then give it a go! For that matter, what is definition of each type of character? I've never really seen the source as the difference between the wizard and cleric. I've seen it more as destructive vs supportive magic.
Khementari 05-19-06, 05:33 PM	Well if we can get someone else to go in for us and yet still reap the rewards ourselves. . . . Hmmm. . . Any character should be able to accomplish such things if that is who they are. I can't make a battle-hardened but conniving warrior who knows how to persuade men into danger for his own benefit? Well, you're right, in 3.5 I really can't... Interested in seeing the skill system you come up with. As is, it seems like some skills are useless if you don't have them at max ranks. Some skills are useless without max ranks and then some are just plain useless. I know how I would change it to suit my game better. How would you? For that matter, what is definition of each type of character? I've never really seen the source as the difference between the wizard and cleric. I've seen it more as destructive vs supportive magic. Well D&D now separates the two kinds of magic into Arcane and Divine. For me, arcane casters bend reality to their own needs. Divine casters have faith in something greater than themselves and their devotion moves those greater powers to act on the caster's behalf.
Aurotuli 05-19-06, 09:23 PM	Could we bring back exclusive skills (3.0e), or a variant thereof? I tend to think that magic should be skill based, but that the skills should not be readily accessible to other classes in the sense that cross-class skills are. Various feat or talent style specials could grant increased casting ability &/or elemental focii that decrease the difficulty challenge of the skill check. I also tend to think that instead of BAB we should have weapon groups as skills - but differently structured weapon groups than those in the UA. The four classes would be combatent, the healer, the mage, and the expert. The healer would have a lay on hands style ability, touch of vitality, but little in the way of melee combat ability (light armor, no shields, very simple weaponry). Their general spell list would be very very short - only a few per level, and they would draw upon spheres based upon their domains for additional spell selection. Granted abilities would be gained via 'divine channelling'. Turning Undead would be like 'turning air elementals' - something that could be done only if the right sphere was chosen. Casting would be via Invocations - skill checks (complex skill checks, perhaps, for higher level spells). These are the channelling casters with little innate power who learn to call upon their diety or other intities for spell effects. Such effects often take more time to occur, but they are also more lasting, perhaps more potent, and often capable of more delicate work (such as healing). The mage would have a bloodline of some sort to explain the source of their magical ability. Each level they would gain a couple signature spells (ala EoMR), but these would have to be based upon their bloodline. Other spells could be learned on their own during a level, but those diametrically opposed to their bloodline would be quite difficult to learn - and those of their bloodline much easier to learn. Something akin to a Warlock variant of the Mage in Elements of Magic Revised, but with fewer / weaker (warlock style) specials, no eldritch blast, and (due to EoMR style casting) higher level spells - potentially, anyway. These are the innate / natural casters who can learn to enhance their abilities. Their power is great but somewhat wild, seemingly barely controlled at times. The combatent and the expert would be hardest to exactly model. Perhaps something akin to a Combat Style ever third level - where one could choose the next level of the style or the first level of a new style. Assassin / Stalker could be one style, heavily armored warrior another, rager another, etc. The expert would simply have a diversity of skills and a surplus of skill points. They would have 'rogue specials' every three levels, able to gain such things as 'evaion', 'new class skill', trapfinding, etc. Their specials should perhaps have several things that would only be applicable in the basis of 'cannot do when the DC is over 15+ skill rank total unless you have this special': things like 'trapfinding', 'tracking', etc.
Khementari 05-19-06, 09:57 PM	Aurotuli, I'm glad to see you post your thoughts here with us. I am interested by many of your ideas. I've done so much quoting today that I'll just say a few things about your post. As far as using exclusive skills my feelings are that I want to create more freedom in the skill system, not detail more skills that others can't purchase in that section of character creation. BUT, looking at your post it seems that you want to give a class an individual ability that would be governed by a rolling system(d20 style). That is fine but it would be part of a class feature, not the skill system. If you want to do away with BaB and try some new Weapon Proficiency mechanic give it a try. Your thoughts on the caster classes are interesting. You do refer to a book called Elements of Magic and classes/rules therein and it would be best if you could describe your ideas for your classes without refering to other texts. Do a write-up of your Combatant for levels 1 to 5. While doing this, imagine how satisfied you would be playing a character based on your Healer or Mage and try to make your Combatant feel just as satisfying.
jagggar 05-19-06, 11:01 PM	I haven't really thought too much about revamping the skill system. Some parts of d20 are less work to change than others. Feats can be created by looking at other feats, but redoing skills or the magic system takes a lot more commitment (which is one of the reasons I haven't done too much work on my 'elementalist' before). If I was going for a quick fix, I'd probably create a D&D equivlent for d20 Modern's occupations (and might up everyone's skill points by 2 per level) or some other way that you could choose a few skills. Maybe try to work out something between a class skill and a cross-class skill. 'Ideally', I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd want to retain a d20 roll, because if you remove that, it's not really d20 anymore, is it? D&D also seperates magic into schools. But for me, I don't really think of magic in schools like that (except in D&D). Magic is magic. Of course, this is my preference for sorcerer flavor (magic is a natural talent/power) bleeding through. If I can fly and blow things up (fireball) what do I care about the technical things about it? I think my elemental mages would get four elemental points each level. You could put them in Earth, Air, Fire, or Water. You could spread them out evenly or you could horde them all in one element or something in-between. If you just went for one element, you'd learn powerful spells of that element or you could spread them out to learn spells that combined the elements. (The most powerful water spell would require 80 'ranks' in Water. The most powerful lightning spell would require Fire 40 and Air 40.) It would be a point system like psionics (PP as opposed to spell slots, don't know that it would be augmentable), but I haven't gotten to thinking about how to figure that out and keep it ideally balanced with the monster CR. One odd thought that keeps coming up is that you'd have different point pools for each element and you'd have to spend points from multiple elements to cast a spell that combines elements. Don't know how I like that idea, makes it feel like Magic:tG in a creepy way.
Red_Bird_of_Chaos 05-20-06, 12:24 AM	Class Skills The Battle Master's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Diplomacy (Cha), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Survival (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Knowledge (Int). Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Table: The Battle Master Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 *5 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 *7 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 *5 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 *1 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 *7 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 *5 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 *8 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 *2 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 *5 *7 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 *3 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 *6 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 *1 *5 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 *7 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 *2 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 *5 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 *4 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 *7 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 *1 *5 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 *2 Class Features All of the following are class features of the Battle Master. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Battle is proficient with all simple , martial and exotic weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). *1 Terrrain Mastery- Do to his sudy of combat conditions on certain terrain a Battle Master gains a +2 to attack and damage on his chosen terrain and ignores the combat penaltys normally asociated with that terrain. Some Terrain Choices: Hilly Rocky Urban Cave Fire Water Air Forest *2 Mastery of Blades - using skills only a seasoned warrior can call upon the Blade Master can penetrate any defense. Choose a damage reduction type the Battle Master now ignores that type of damage reduction , as if every blade he uses were made to combat that damage reduction type. *3 Siege Engine Mastery - from his many experiences the Battle Master Draws forth his knowledge of siege engines. the Battle Master is now proficient in the use of all siege engines. If he so chooses the Battle Master may apply weapon feats to the apropiate siege engines. *4 Battle Command - At 17th level the Battle Master has so well mastered his skills that he can pass them on to others. Once a day for 1 turn a Battle Master May temporarily pass on one of his feats and or class skills to all who follow him. This skill takes all of a Battle Masters concentration and leaves no room for anything else , while he continues to use this skill the Battle Master may perform no other action. *5 Armor Mastery -through the long use of armor in combat the Battle Master has gained the ability to use it more effectively. Ever time the Armor Mastery skill is obtained the Battle Master gains a speed bonus of +5. *6 Weapon Mastery - The Battle Master may now make a number of attacks equal to his base attack rating. these attacks may be any combination of weapons or just one weapon. Each attack suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to attack rating. This skill is a full round action , you may take a 5 foot step anywhere in this attack. *7 Razor's Edge - Through long pratice and research the Battle master has learned how best to prepare his weapons for battle. Each time Razor's Edge is gained the Battle Master applies a cumalative +1 to damage and +1 to attack rating to every weapon. *8 Tough as a Rock - The Battle Master has toughened himself to an extreme degree. He no longer takes penaltys for wearing Heavy armor while sleeping. Can sleep 2 hours a day and count it as a full days rest (unless he can use spells , if so he still needs the 8 hours sleep to be able to regain his spell power). The Battle Master , also , no longer takes penaltys for being in negative hit points ( though he still dies at -10 HP).
Nani? 05-20-06, 02:34 AM	Is this an Unearthed Arcana "Contest" Simular to the Master DM Competitions etc? Is anyone scoring it and is there a time limit?If not, do we want to turn it into such a contest? All the Best, Nani?
Khementari 05-20-06, 03:02 AM	Red_Bird_of_Chaos I appreciate your post and thank you for joining us. You have the start of some interesting abilities for your Battle Master, but if you read the thread Bonus Feats are not acceptable Class Features. Keep working! :) Nani? this is not in any way a contest, it is not timed, and there are no prizes. This is simply a meeting place for minds to exercise and perhaps flesh out ideas with the help of others. If you have read the thread and would like to contribute constructively please do.
FlameLover 05-20-06, 03:47 AM	This isn't exactly what you were asking for, but i've been thinking about it for a while and wanted to post it anyway (since there is a faint connection). I want to drop the idea of classes in d20 entirley, and go for a pure feat/skill approach. There are 2 ways I can see it being down, though: Arcanum: As you level up you obtain points to spend on ability scores, skills, spells, schematics (spells but for item creation), etc. The difference between levels is much less, and it allots for much more customization. You are don't have Fighter/Wizards, for example, you just have people who have spent there points on both combat skills and on spells. World of Warcraft: In WoW, at higher levels, you gain the ability to buy "talents". I can see classes being replaced with talent trees or boards that allow you to pick the equivelant of feats, skills, abilities and spells with points. Such a system would be much more resistant to modification, though, as they wouldn't be quite as free-form as feats are to choose. Merging the two you get my favourite option. Every rank you have in a skill gives you more options for feats, as skills and other feats are the only prerewuisites for feats. You would get maybe 3 feats at first level and another 1 at every level thereafter. They'd be the equivelant of class abilities and feats rolled into one. It'd also change th D&D system less, as feats and skills are understood by all current edition players. It also allows easy modification, as adding new skills and feats doesn't impact upon the others. Just some ideas. I know you mention re-working classes, and this is really replcaing them. But it's basically a new way to acheice the same net effect - morphable archeytypes.
Khementari 05-20-06, 03:39 PM	I haven't really thought too much about revamping the skill system. Some parts of d20 are less work to change than others...If I was going for a quick fix, I'd probably create a D&D equivlent for d20 Modern's occupations...or some other way that you could choose a few skills. Maybe try to work out something between a class skill and a cross-class skill. My idea for rewriting D&D in my own style actually came to me while browsing through a friend's copy of d20 Modern. It has some interesting ideas. But here is a summary of how I will deal with skills for my classes: I have always wanted more freedom in the skill area for my players and after seeing Iron Heroes I've decided to work my own magic in the skill area. Without consulting the PHB I thought long and hard about the roles for each class and what skills would be absolutely needed for the class to function the way I felt it should. So I picked a number of skills for each class and labeled them class skills. These skills are equal to class level. A character gets skill points that he can distribute among any skills freely, but still adhering to the limit of level+3 for maximum rank. There are no cross-class skills and you may improve your class skills by up to 3 ranks just like other skills. The trick is figuring out how many points to distribute to each class and still have everyone happy. Oddly enough, the races I am working on use a similar mechanic to d20 Modern Occupations. Choosing a race may also get you an additional skill or two that you can include to the list of your Class Skills that improve automatically as you level. I think my elemental mages would get four elemental points each level. You could put them in Earth, Air, Fire, or Water. You could spread them out evenly or you could horde them all in one element or something in-between...but I haven't gotten to thinking about how to figure that out and keep it ideally balanced with the monster CR. If you get some time try to flesh this idea out. You have a pretty interesting method of casting with the split between the elements and I would like to see your idea in a semi-usable state. And I know the whole CR balance is a nightmare so forget that part of it for now. We can hammer balance into it later, if you are happy with what you come up with.
Rhomphaia 05-20-06, 07:09 PM	I worked on things a bunch today at work (I work as a security guard, which means lots of free time) and came up with solid rules for cleric and fighter, but want to hammer those out a bit before posting anything. However, I do have some concepts, so here is a preview of what to expect come Monday sometime. Cleric: Channeling positive/negative energy has more uses than just turning/rebuking undead. Fighter: Not only masters weapons, but also moves better in armor and is a master of battlefield control. Rogue: Is taking some steps back to its old 1e days. Wizard: Mastering a single school almost to the exclusion of all others, gaining some special spell-like abilities in doing so.
Red_Bird_of_Chaos 05-20-06, 07:46 PM	Changed my other post to reflect the no bonus feat rule. I've added a bit to the post to make up for these changes. sorry about the bonus feats , but that was always the definning characteristic of a fighter. his costomizability made for many diffrent possible builds. he just doesn't seem the same without them. i tried though to keep him versatile. Have yet to think of an Epic Progresion for him... :)
Rhomphaia 05-20-06, 08:25 PM	You are running into the same problem I am with wizard and Scribe Scroll...I just can't imagine a wizard without the ability to write up a spell or two on a bit of parchment. I did run into the problem with fighter though, but I think I have corrected it nicely. Took some thought though. I want to post all of the class changes I am doing at once and I still got two to work on though, gonna be a long day tommorrow.
Leatherwood 05-21-06, 06:47 PM	Here's an idea I have been fooling around with for some time... It would be a great replacement for the wizard/cleric type characters and is significantly outside anything that we've seen WotC put out before. Please excuse the fact that this isn't properly formated and in short hand. :) Hit Die: d6 BAB: Poor Fort: Poor Refl: Poor Will: Good Weapons: Simple. Armor: None. Skill Points: 4+Int Core Skills: (All) Concentration, Craft, Knowlege (Arcana), Profession, Spellcraft. (Sorcerer) Decipher Script, Knowledge (Dungeonerring), Knowledge (the planes), Search. (Magician) Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty). (Wizard) Heal, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Sense Motive. Level Memory Points 1st 2+0 5 2nd 2+1 8 3rd 3+1 11 4th 3+1 17 5th 4+1 23 6th 4+1 32 7th 5+1 41 8th 5+2 53 9th 6+2 65 10th 6+2 80 11th 7+2 95 12th 7+2 113 13th 8+2 131 14th 8+3 152 15th 9+3 173 16th 9+3 197 17th 10+3 221 18th 10+3 248 19th 11+3 275 20th 11+4 302 Spellcasters choose between being a Sorcerer, Magician, or Wizard. Sorcerers have access to Necromancy, Summoning and Evocation type magic. Wizards have access to druidic, protective, and healing magic. Magicians have access to enchantments, illusions, and utility type spells. Sorcerer Spells are keyed to Intelligence. Wizard spells are keyed to Wisdom. Magician spells are keyed to Charisma. Characters can have a number of spells memorized from their chosen spell list equal to the first number. The second number are spells that can be memorized of any type. A character can memorize a new spell (which can replace another memorized spell) once per day. Spell points for spell level: 0th = 1, 1st = 3 2nd = 5, etc. I could flesh this out a bit more if you're interested. :)
Khementari 05-23-06, 05:38 PM	Rhomphaia, it looks like you have been putting serious thought into your classes. If you're having trouble feel free to PM me. Red_Bird, I saw what you changed and that is a good step in the right direction. Keep it up! Leatherwood, your one class fits all types is interesting. Can you come up with class features as you level that will support the idea that this class could fit all casting roles?
Rhomphaia 05-23-06, 08:42 PM	First off, sorry for the delay. I have been having a bit of trouble hammering out the mechanics on these classes. Second, I do not know how to make tables in these forums, so those will be lacking initially, but you should get the rough idea of what I am thinking in my rewrites. Without further ado, here is the first of my major class reformats. CLERIC Concept: A religious warrior who has learned to channel the power of his/her deity for use in spells, turning (or rebuking) undead and curing (or enhancing) ailments. Class Basics: *Hit Dice: d8. *Base Attack: Equal to 3/4 class hit dice (average). *Base Saves: Moderate Fortitude, poor Reflex, Good Will. If you do not like the concept of a moderate save progression (starts at +1 and ends at +9 at level 20) then use a good Fortitude progression. *Skill Points: 4x (2+Int modifier) at level one. 2+Int modifier each additional level. *Class Skills (and associated ability scores): Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int). Domains may add class skills. *Proficiencies: All simple weapons and shields (except tower shields) and all light and medium armor. Class Features: *Channeling: Starting at first level, a cleric can channel either positive or negative energy, depending on his deity and alignment (restrictions on positive/negative energy and alignment are unchanged). This grants the use of three unique abilities, as follows. 1) Turn/Rebuke Undead: This is unchanged from the rules in the PHB. 2) Heal/Inflict Wounds: This allows the cleric to use a 'turning' attempt to either cure or inflict wounds, depending on which sort of energy he channels. The amount of damage cured/inflicted is determined as follows. The cleric makes a turn damage check (2d6+ Cha mod+ cleric level). This generates the number of points cured/inflicted. At level 5 and every five levels thereafter, add 1d6 to this roll (ending at 6d6+ Cha mod+ cleric level at level 20). Using this ability is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If using this as an attack, then this counts as a melee touch attack. Note- The cleric MAY NOT cure his own wounds in this manner, only the wounds of others. However, he may use spells to cure his own wounds. 3) Advance/Supress Poison and Disease: A cleric may use a turning attempt to reduce or increase the amount of ability score damage dealt by poison or disease. This works as follows. The cleric makes a turning check (1d20+ Cha modifier) and compares the result to table 8-9 on page 159 of the PHB. If the result indicates a greater number of hit dice than the cleric's level (ie- a result of 13 or higher on the check) then the indicated number of excess hit dice is the amount of damage supressed/additional inflicted each time ability score damage is taken from poison or disease. This effect lasts for as long as a poison lasts (usually 2 minutes) or for one day per cleric level in the case of diseases. Using this ability is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Okay, I am going to pause here to give an example of how the above would work. Say a cleric rolls a 16 on a turning check. This indicates a 'Cleric level +2' on the table, s his buddy, who had just gotten poisoned, will take 2 less ability score damage whenever the poison hurts him. Clerics and Deities: Clerics MUST choose a deity to worship. Furthermore, the cleric only chooses one domain at level one and another at level 11. Spellcasting: First and foremost, clerics no longer cast cure or inflict spells spontaneously. They must prepare these spells as normal. Also, they do not recieve a bonus spell slot for their domain spells, nor can they prepare their domain spells. However, they can cast their domain spells spontaneously. Spells Per Day: Clerics see their spells per day reduced by one per level, across the board. Whenever the table indicates 1 spell per day (such as 1 first level spell per day at level 1) however, replace that with a 0. The cleric can still cast spells of this level if he/she has bonus spells of that level, such as from a high Wisdom score. FIGHTER Concept: A primarily melee fighter that not only masters weapon and armor use, but battlefield control and longevity in battle as well. Class Basics: *Hit Dice: d10. *Base Attack: Equal to class hit dice (good). *Base Saves: Good Fortitude, moderate Reflex, poor Will. *Skill Points: 4x(4+Int mod) at first level, 4+Int mod every level thereafter. *Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex). *Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, all armor and all shields. Class Features: *Weapon Mastery: Choose a weapon with which the fighter is proficient. At levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18, gain a cumulative +1 to hit with that weapon. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20, gain a cumulative +1 to damage rolls with that weapon. These bonuses supercede those from the (Greater) Weapon Focus and (Greater) Weapon Specialization feats. The attack bonus with the weapon counts as part of the fighter's base attack bonus for purposes of determining iterative attacks only. *Control the Field: The fighter learns tricks to keep his opponents guessing and to limit their options while expanding his own options in a combat encounter. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20, choose one of the following. 1) Sit Down! The fighter can make a trip attack without provoking an AoO and gains a +2 on the touch attack and opposed Strength check to trip an opponent. Also, the opponent may not react to trip the fighter should the trip fail. The tripped opponent takes 1d4+ fighter's Str mod from the fall and may be stunned (Fort DC 10+ 1/2 fighter's level) for 1 round. 2) Gimme That! Fighter can make disarming attacks without AoO and gains a +2 to the disarming check. If the check succeeds, the fighter decides which space (within 10 ft of his position) that the weapon or items lands in. 3) Oh no you don't! Fighter gains a number of attacks of opportunity per round equal to his Wisdom modifier. This stacks with the COmbat Reflexes feat. 4) Bash it! Fighter can sunder without provoking attacks of opportunity and gains a +2 to strike the item and ignores 2 points of the item's hardness. 5) Move it! When bull rushing, the fighter does not provoke attack of opportunity and if successful, decides which space his opponent goes to. 6) Gain Way! When charging, the fighter can move intervening characters of the same size or smaller from his path with an opposed Strength check, modified by size. Moved creatures are moved 5 ft directly away from the line of the charge. If the fighter fails to move a creature, then his movement (and the charge) immediately ends. *Second Skin: Fighters can move more freely than others in armor. Level 5- All armor is reduced by one weight category and armor check penalties are reduced by 1. Padded, leather, studded leather and chain shirt armors (and their equivilents) only encumber the fighter half as much (weigh half as much when worn by the fighter). Level 10- The fighter can now ignore armor check penalties from shields up to his Strength modifier. Level 15- All armor is considered light and reduce armor check penalties by a total of 2. Hide, scale mail, chain mail and breastplate armors (and their equivilents) only encumber the fighter half as much. Level 20- All armor only encumbers the fighter by half normal. *Call on Reserves: Once per day at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18, a fighter can call upon inner strength to continue fighting. This gives the fighter 1d6+ fighter level temporary hit points plus the benefits of the Diehard feat. The Diehard lasts for one round per three levels of fighter and the temporary hit points last for one hour. Add 1d6 temporary hit points every three levels beyond level three. I will have rogues and wizards ready by thursday, but for now, I have to get ready for work. I am running late as it is. I hope you enjoy the new classes.
jagggar 05-23-06, 11:41 PM	Ya use the code tag and type it up in a program with uniform width text. Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +0 +1 +0 +2 2 +1 +2 +0 +3 3 +2 +2 +1 +3 4 +3 +2 +1 +4 5 +3 +3 +1 +4 6 +4 +3 +2 +5 7 +5 +4 +2 +5 8 +6 +4 +2 +6 9 +6 +4 +3 +6 10 +7 +5 +3 +7 11 +8 +5 +3 +7 12 +9 +6 +4 +8 13 +9 +6 +4 +8 14 +10 +6 +4 +9 15 +11 +7 +5 +9 16 +12 +7 +5 +10 17 +12 +8 +5 +10 18 +13 +8 +6 +11 19 +14 +8 +6 +11 20 +15 +9 +6 +12 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +1 +0 2 +2 +3 +2 +0 3 +3 +3 +2 +1 4 +4 +4 +2 +1 5 +5 +4 +3 +1 6 +6 +5 +3 +2 7 +7 +5 +4 +2 8 +8 +6 +4 +2 9 +9 +6 +4 +3 10 +10 +7 +5 +3 11 +11 +7 +5 +3 12 +12 +8 +6 +4 13 +13 +8 +6 +4 14 +14 +9 +6 +4 15 +15 +9 +7 +5 16 +16 +10 +7 +5 17 +17 +10 +8 +5 18 +18 +11 +8 +6 19 +19 +11 +8 +6 20 +20 +12 +9 +6
Rhomphaia 05-24-06, 10:07 AM	Thanks, I will get to recoding it once I have some free time to spare.
Khementari 05-31-06, 02:47 AM	Anyone have an update? I'm currently working on a way to have spellcasters without spells per day. It's a fun ride.
starfire311 05-31-06, 08:45 AM	Anyone have an update? I'm currently working on a way to have spellcasters without spells per day. It's a fun ride. cool, I am working on a concept of removing the x/day abilities like smite, turn undead and stunning fists, and replacing them with skill checks with increasing DCs to use. I always hated x/day abilities
Khementari 05-31-06, 11:35 AM	cool, I am working on a concept of removing the x/day abilities like smite, turn undead and stunning fists, and replacing them with skill checks with increasing DCs to use. I always hated x/day abilities I have done away with all X/day as well. It just doesn't feel cinematic to me to have a hard number limit. "Sorry guys, I can't exorcise the demon--I already turned those skeletons at the beginning of the dungeon that you didn't want to fight..."
TheSkinnySkeleton 05-31-06, 02:55 PM	I've been thinking about this quite a bit the last few days. (Prolly obvious from the number of posts I've made in this forum, lol....) What I've come up with is still rather abstract, but I think it would work. It does away with X-per-day abilities, and makes character customization fully accessible to all players. First and foremost, classes as they are known have to go. I like the class system used in d20 Modern--the classes themselves are generic, made to describe your character rather than classify your character. The classes would have d20 Modern-esque names like "Tough Guy" and "Wise Man", and each class would be tied to one defining ability score. Classes would only be used as a means of basic progression (saves, BAB, etc), and all special abilities tied to class would be RP-BASED, not combat based. Second, all feats that grant the character new actions become skills. All spells become skills, categorized as schools perhaps, or something else more concise if need be. All special abilities currently related to class become skills. All classes would have the same number of skill points available, modified by intelligence, and skill points would be earned in greater numbers to make up for this. Skills would be determined as class or cross-class depending on what class-template the player chose. We could keep this expanded skill list with the regular skills or seperate it as a different skill list, perhaps with a different point pool to buy from. The only feats that would remain as actual feats would be those that CHANGE the character in some way. Feats that describe the character. Feats that add to the character's personality. These would be the feats available when PCs reach 3rd level, 6th level, etc. Third, the game would use a spell-point mana system for all characters. That's right, all characters, not just spellcasters. Every character would have a set amount of mana available for use each day, and there would be various ways to use it besides spells. Any "feat" that allows for some sort of strenuous combat or physical activity could only be activated by spending a certain amount of mana, and one must first have enough skill ranks in that "feat" to perform the action. For example, if a melee fighter wants to Power Attack, he must first have enough ranks in Power Attack to do so, and then he must spend mana. Same goes if someone wants to Sneak Attack, or Turn Undead. And, indeed, spells. The way skill ranks vs mana cost would scale is thus: -- the max ranks per level would remain character level + 3 -- additional features of skills would only open up as the character reaches certain ranks in them. -- all abilities/feats with a certain number of uses per day would instead have a large mana price. Buying ranks in the related skill reduces the mana price over time. -- all abilities/feats with an unlimited number of uses per day would have a moderate mana price. Buying ranks in the realted skill either reduces the mana price over time, or opens up new features, making it stronger somehow. -- spells would have mana prices related to the spell level/power. The only issue is that this must be properly balanced. If it's skewed, we'll end up with high-level characters with lots of mana and almost unlimited uses of their abilities. The mana price drop for skill-use should be balanced with the current ability progression rate in standard D&D classes. Character creation would work as thus: -- the player would roll the stats as normal, and decide on a character CONCEPT. A generic class would be chosen to describe this class and set the BAB and save progression. (although I do like the skill-defined BAB that someone else mentioned earlier.) -- the player would then divide his skill points up among the skills he wants his character to have. For example, a fighter would buy into combat feats and weapon proficiencies, and a rogue would buy sneak attack and trapfinding. However, the only thing stopping a fighter from buying spell ranks or a spellcaster from buying sneak attack ranks would be the cross-class cost deterent. Everything is fair game though. (I might consider making a feat for being able to use magic. Any PC could still take this feat though, with certain prerequistes.) -- feats would be chosen to develop the character for RP purposes, not for making the character stronger in combat. Feats like Awareness, Investigator, and Diligence would fall into this category. New feats could be created to suit this purpose as well. Really, the last point is one of the biggest reasons I am working on developing something like this. The main reason, in my opinion, that d20 rules often tend to lead to combat-heavy and RP-light games these days is due to combat skills outshining RP-specific options. Feats like Decietful are almost never taken, because of the sheer number of more important feats. However, if all combat specific actions and special abilities were grouped together and available to all PCs to learn if they wish, players could create their PCs to suit whatever concept they might have. Then, as PCs rise in level, they earn feats which change their CHARACTERS, not their available combat actions. It's all about enhancing role-playing. The other reason I think this (or something like this) would be beneficial is that it would pretty much eliminate this much talked about gap between fighters and wizards at high levels. Everybody starts with an equal playing field. Everybody has the same options. Spellcasters might be slightly less powerful, as they would have to spend all their skill points in multiple different spell schools and metamagic skills. To compensate, fighters would be slightly more powerful, able to use more feats than normal. Fighters would probably be able to get by more easily without magic items too.... What do you guys think? Like I said, this is all abstract in my head right now. It's quite possible that there's no chance in hell this system could work. But it's a nice thought....
Khementari 05-31-06, 04:23 PM	I started working on this idea last fall...probably last summer now that I think harder about it. It was the d20 modern classes that started it, not that I wanted to play d20 modern but the fact that they took the system and made it work their way. What would happen if I tried that, I thought. So at first I did plan out some 5 level early classes that you had to advance out of to advanced classes and maybe special prestige classes later on. But at the heart of it I wanted to recreate the fantasy of D&D using rules and methods that I liked more. So at this point I have four main classes; Battler, Thief, Acolyte, and Arcanist. The setting I started on has additional main classes but I decided to pull the layers off and really hammer out these four so I could theoretically use them for any setting I create. But I'm going way beyond just rewriting the classes. * I'm using armor as damage reduction and Defense instead of AC. * I threw out the entire selection of feats from d20 and I'm rewriting them from the ground up to balance things a way I am comfortable with. * Spellcasters have to roll to succeed and I have written systems to make it challenging as well as mechanically govern spellcasters because they do not have spells per day or any kind of limiting mana system. * I reworked class skills and did away with cross-class completely. * Epic is nonsense to me. My game has 20 level classes and all of my classes have a curve of defining abilities. They become quite powerful but it's less about numbers and more about a cinematic feel. * Along with rewriting feats I decided gaining a level should be more rewarding. Characters gain a feat every level. This helps players define their character not only by mastering weapons, magic, and combat style but also gives them enough room to use feats for a skill bonus, background, racial abilities...all sorts of interesting directions. * Along with feats I threw out the spells too! Headache yes, I know, but being able to create a spell list specific for your setting is pretty cool. I could go on forever like this...but I need a sammich
Cheza 06-01-06, 04:36 PM	I made a class independant d20 system. It's more or less beeing a commoner and adding anything you want by spending feats (BAB +1 = 1 feat and so one) You'll need about 50 feats up to Level 20. A few ground rules should be in play - Feats, their existence, and rate of accumulation are not a part of any class advancement. Bonus Feats are not an acceptable reward for gaining class levels. - Spells themselves are not part of class development(for the wizard and cleric) and should be assumed to have similar ideals to what we all know of their respective archetype. - Don't be pressured into giving a class an ability just because that's the ability they get in d20, i.e. Sneak Attack. If you envision your rogue-like class differently then make it so. Create a new mechanic or two. Let's say, the d20 system contains BAB, Saves, Skills, feats, spells and condition modifiers... and you decided to kick out feats & spells. What do you expect to happen?? The only thing would be, that feats get new names called "class abbilities". Spells are called "effects from magical skills". But in the end, anything will be the same. Up to your question: I imagine a system that only functions with action points similar to power points. Your level determines how many points you can use per round. Fighters spend their points to perform specific combat actions like disarm, trip etc or to perform additional attacks. Wizards spend their action points to cast spells (ah you don't want spells ... so it will be called "level-dependant, metamagic enhancements to an static magical surrounding). This means, that instead of casting spells, your level defines, which characteristic of a magical effect you can change. For 10 points, you can add an area to your effect. For 5 points you can increase the duration for X rounds.
Khementari 06-01-06, 06:15 PM	... and you decided to kick out feats & spells. What do you expect to happen?? The only thing would be, that feats get new names called "class abbilities". Spells are called "effects from magical skills". But in the end, anything will be the same. You miss my point. I kept the Feat section as well as Spells section in my game; I just decided that I wanted to rewrite them in a way I felt suited my setting. Sure, I could stick with the existing Feats, but I would rather devise a nice collection of Feats that don't depend on or be hampered by the messy collection that already exists. Spells certainly are divided into levels of increasing power but again, they are spells that are fitted to my setting. Class abilities aren't Feats or Spells. Gaining a Feat for a Class Ability is like saying, well we couldn't think up anything that really defines what you are so here is an extra cookie. Spell progression aside, a caster should have Class Abilities that deal with the things the class can do. As far as your ideas go for a class independant d20 system it sounds pretty abstract. I'm not a fan of classless d20. The idea of powerpoints is a very limiting factor. Spending points to perform actions, change effects, and extend durations changes the game into more of a math equation and away from being an fun game to play with your friends. I try to make the mechanics police themselves instead of having players unable to act because they are out of power or X per day abilities. If you would like to throw your hat in the ring and post a class design I'd be happy to see it.
Cheza 06-01-06, 07:25 PM	@ powerpoints: This isn't to hard to do. Any spell you wish to cast needs a certain number of power points. Metamagic will increase the amount you need but I would change what is metamagic and what isn't. In my oppinion, you could add an spell range to the list. (Same with "area" or "no saving throw"). So if you wish to cast a close ranged spell with long range, you have to pay additional powerpoints. You can call the power points stamina. Anything your character does during combat, reduces his stamina. If you charge, make special attacks, etc. it takes your closer to exhaustion. Same with casting spells. After combat, you can rest for a while (not only 8h. sleep) to regain lost points. @ classless D&D: It would take to long to write it down. But it's differnent to your way. You say "Gaining a Feat for a Class Ability is like saying, well we couldn't think up anything that really defines what you are", but for me it's a signal to say "enjoy individualism!". As you can see, hundreds of prestige classes and variant classes show only two things: WotCs great ability to get money and the wish of players to be individual. So why should I be proficient with Tower Shields, when I wish to play a two-Weapon Fighter. An alternative would be to say: A fighter don't get Proficiencies at level 1, but gain special bonus feats. Now you can choose to either take only light armor but PointBlankShot & PreciseShot or to take no Shield Proficiency but TWF. So do you really need an extra book with any possible class variant?? Or do you think Archers, TW-Fighters aren't Fighters at all?? So my idea is to get one generic class (not more) and to leave the rest up to the players. As with shadowrun there are different examples / archetypes to quicken character generation. Sure, I could stick with the existing Feats, but I would rather devise a nice collection of Feats that don't depend on or be hampered by the messy collection that already exists. Just reduce them. I combined several feats: Favored condition (xyz) Benefit: get a +2 bonus on one specific d20 roll (or against it). This includes weapon focus, ranger's enemy, skill focus, spell focus, improved grapple, two weapon fighting, spell focus, spell penetration, lightning reflexes, dodge .... You will sum up about 100 feats.
Khementari 06-01-06, 09:57 PM	Well Cheza thanks for your input. I'm not really here to debate the topic, I'm here to find a few people that have similar ideas and want to work together to create. If you can do that you are welcome to stick around but please stick to the topic of this thread in the future.
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-01-06, 11:55 PM	I do believe I've figured it out. :) The d20 Mutants and Masterminds game uses a classless power-point-buy system almost identical to the system I described in my last post. What's more, it's really very easy to use. -- everyone starts as normal people, with average stats. -- the DM allots everyone a certain amount of "power points" and assigns a "power level". The amount of points corresponds with the level. -- players allocate power points to raise scores and buy new abilities. By spending power points, they can: raise their ability scores, raise their BAB, buy skill ranks, buy feats, and buy "powers" or special abilities. -- The difference between feats and special abilities is that special abilities require a "power check." This is identical to a skill check. Spells are classified as special abilities. -- Saving throws are calculated in the most basic way: d20 + ability score modifier. If you want to raise your saving throws, there are powers you can purchase to do just that. To convert this system to D&D would be easy. Everything's been done for us, except special abilities and the magic system. -- assign power point costs between 1 and 10 to each of the special abilities that D&D assigns to classes. This cost would be equal to the level that a D&D character recieves the ability on, divided by two, rounded up. -- special abilities that a PC doesn't have to roll a check to use instead become feats. -- special abilities that improve as the character rises in level would have to scaled, with improvements now being granted dependant on rank. -- magic would have to be scaled, with higher level spells only available to higher ranks. I think the psionic point buy system might work better for this one. Whaddaya think? I am totally gonna do this. Advice/suggestions anyone?