Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banpai 02-21-04, 09:25 PM	Unearthed Arcana provided us with the very interresting variant rule called Gestalts(for more information about them simply look into one of the Gestald Threads on this board). While the rules regarding Gestalts still chause some confusion (BAB issues .....) this thread aims to provide and collect informations about how to create and maintain a Gestalt campaign as well as some ideas to better flesh out Gestalts and the role they have in a campagin. This thread is NOT a place to discuss wheter the Gestalt variant rule is the greatest :censored: the Wizards ever created or the best stuff these wonderfull people have brought to us since 3.0 multiclassing. To be honest I like this interresting option and plan to use it in my future games. Now after this short introduction the basics: 1. Chosing a theme for the campaign Ahead of starting a Gestalt campaign (or implementing this rule into an existing one) the DM and if possible the players should take some time and sit together to determine what they want and aim for, what style of play they pefere (the DM should be asked about that too) and what they definitely donīt want. At this point I would like to provide some examples for what kind of campaigns Gestalts can be used: Truly heroic: Such a campaign has PCs who are even more heroic and powerfull that "normal" PCs, such characters can fullfill truly heroic quest as and example for that take Hercules (preferably with Kevin Sorbo (sp?) ). Conan definitly deserveds a mention here too for its compatiblitly with D&D in general. Anime flavored: I know some truly hate animes and others love them and take them as blueprints for their campaigns and characters. Good Role models for a D&D GEstalt campaigns are Animes like Record of Lodoss War (which is based upon D&D 1.ed) Slayers and Bastard (Epic). Some Anime characters like Lina Inverse, Dark Schneider and Zelgardis can be made in D&D even without Gestalt but only with extensive use of PrCs and a great loss of abilities, and here you can easily see the strengthts of Gestalts: Those characters are easily to create (want Lina, simply slap Rogue (with feats variant/ to sorcerer(or battel sorc) and bang you got her) Versatile: Is such a campaign PCs donīt specialize on narrow subjects but spread their knowledge (and skillpoints) over several areas with out beeing an specialist in something particullar. This variant woks especially well when your players donīt like fighting that much and prefere to solve problems with skills and roleplaying. Uniqueness: This campagin has a focs on the fact that no two characters are similar, and even if a group consitsts of $ warrior type characters and two others the chanches that two are similar are much lower. Perhaps one a Swashbukler/Fighter was trained in a Fighter academy specialized on a nimble, gracefull style of fighting, while another one a Fighter/Barbarian has lerned early in his life that strenght and Toughness are the most important things in combat and in life in general, while no. 3 a Fighter/Monk was raised by an order of Monks that dedecated themselves much more on martial perfection than spiritual enlightenment than other orders. And finally no. 4 a Fighter/Rogue equipped with a large Greatsword he wields in two hand with the knowledge of where to hit his foe so his sword blow wonīt be a hard but a devastating hit. This four were only some Fighter variants you can use in your campaign as worldbuilding tool to help the player to feel that his character is really unique and special - his. 2. Character creation When creating characters the group should really sit down together and decide as group what is needed and wanted in the campaign and for their personal fun. Itīs really not funny when you want to be the rogue in the group and almst all others can do the same bechause of thier skill list. In a Gestalt game itīs more important than in a normal game, that every character has something that make him important for the group and gives him the chances tho use those abilities to forward the groups aims and goals. To repeat me - make shure that every PC can contribute or he will become bored soon. Another thing to think about is ECL, in a Gestalt game the boni granted by ECL races might become less valuable compaired to the increased power of the classes. If you feel that it helps maintaing balace talk with your players / DM about it and discuss it in group. Finally the DM needs to take care of the overall balace in the group bechause certain Gestalt combinations are significantly more powerfull than others - if balance is not given take another look into UA, you might find a suitable variant rule there :) 3 Dealing with NPCs and monsters comes in another post Edit:Yes i have seen the typo in the subjet line but it sounds good in my ears sorry for bad english tonight its 3 am currently where I am - time for :whatsthis: and :cookie:
aldymnor 02-21-04, 09:37 PM	Remember that gestalting isn't an auto-ticket to level 20. Gestalting invites the DM to create not only gestalt villains but wonderously difficult situations from which the PCs must escape or solve a problem. Don't immediately turn your nose up and assume gestalting is the anime fix for D&D; it's not. It merely changes the power gamut between commoner, adventurer and god. Power fluxuates on a more dynamic level in Gestalt campaigns, but it doesn't at all mean that gestalt campaigns are all easy. Overpower only exists when the players' power exceeds the cunning or creativity of the DM. Consider using Gestalt organizations. For example, there can be a grove someplace that actually produces gestalt druids. Therefore, one would see "Fighter of the Grove," "Wizard of the Grove" and so forth come from this particular sect of druids, and it seems more unified and explicable. What I try to do is imagine that in my own perfect little RPG, Jedi would be gestalt force users / martial artists or diplomats or whatever. Of course, don't compare that to the d20 RPG of the same name because it's not true. I'm just using a common pop culture example. Perhaps being in this organization can limit player freedoms, making a gestalt more undesirable in a standard campaign with free-willed characters. Edit: more to come when i obtain caffiene.
Tenzhi 02-21-04, 10:11 PM	I'm replacing multi-class rules with Gestalt rules (adding in an XP penalty and the ability to triple-gestalt, among other things) in a campaign with a fairly normal/typical D&D concept...
mhacdebhandia 02-21-04, 10:30 PM	A friend of mine keep nagging me to run the wuxia campaign I had started designing about six months ago as a gestalt campaign where everyone has to play a monk/whatever. :)
Banpai 02-21-04, 10:35 PM	Aldymnor I share your oppinion about the fact that Gestalts donīt simply change the power but level of the PCs but the level of th whole campaign. The rather large anime part of mine was meant as inspiration not as insult to players and DMs who donßt like animes but like gestalts, my appologizes if I have insulted someone. The organisations part of yours is a very good idea maybe - if you are interrested making anothre tread about Gestalt organisations would be of large interrest. Now part 3 Dealing with NPCs and monsters To start with a hard fact Gestalt characters/monster/NPCs are more complicated than their normal counterparts so making every creature a Gestalt would be a huge work and i strongly suggest not to do so! While its definitly not a bad idea to make more important NPC Gestalts to challenge the players there is no such good reason to do the same with monsters (a beholder honestly does not need a class level for each of his hd - Gestalting with racial hd is another issue anyways) they simply donīt need such an effort to make them good challenges for the players and adding some levels of warrior or more racial hd is usually the do that. As mentioned in the Gestalt description in UA its suggested to change the monsters CR so it fits the PCs powerlevel. Minor NPCs are a slightly different subject, they usually donīt need the greater efford to make them gestalts chause it doesnīt relly matter at all for the PCs if the smith is a level 5 Expert or a level 5 Expert/ 5 Warrior they simply want their weapon sharpened and their armors repaired. Variant Focussed: When playing a Gestalt campaign players simultaniously develop their powers in two different areas and combine them into a single class, but there might be others who are more focussed on one class and develop their abilities in this area only but with quicker progress what shpws itself in a XP bonus fot them. This bonus could range between 10 and 30 percent depending on campaign. This variant rule can be used for NPC whichīare important enough to be made as Gestalt but did decided to master only on field but with quicker progress. The XP figures are no way written in stone if you have more reasonable figrues dont hesitate to tell them to me so i can change it. If you want an easier way to calculare XP after encounters simply assume that the PCs all would have additional ECL+2-3 it make calculation less time consuming. The speed up combat give jobs to the players: let one of them take care of the spell durations, anotherone of the used spells and abilites, another one get the job to take care of innitiative. Let the players roll attack roll(s) and damage roll(s) together to save some time if they donīt hit simply ignore the damage roll. 4 Use players to help you Now a suggestion, but please donīt missunderstand it some of us had bad experience with it: Let the players roll things like spot and search even if the roll badly their chars donīt know that and if they react different explain the difference between character knowledge and player knowledge to them again. Make shure you can trust the players, Gestalts are difficult and usually the player has a better ( at least quicker) understanding of what his character is chapable to do so its very easy for a player to cheat make shure that something like that is not acceptable and give XP penalities for minor ""missunderstandings"".
Banpai 02-21-04, 10:41 PM	Tenzhi: interresting idea definitly worth trying once but what did you do with PrCs do they still not create Xp penailities? mhacdebhandia: I think its great that you take so much of your time to preapare a campaign for your players but make shure that you can handle it, such a campaging needs more preparation. I sinply have to suggest you to search / create a variant Monk class, perhaps a less mystical martial artist or it might become a little bit to mystic if everyone is a Monk. (I have no idea what wuxia is but it sounds asian - enlighten me please :confused: )
Tenzhi 02-22-04, 01:31 AM	Originally posted by Banpai Tenzhi: interresting idea definitly worth trying once but what did you do with PrCs do they still not create Xp penailities? I believe you asked me this before in another thread, and I will give you the same answer here: "My first inclination is to option the optional PrC right out of the game. Some of them are neat, but in the end they're just a 3rd Ed rendition of Kits with prerequisites thrown in. My second (and less powerful) inclination is to allow them, but still make the player follow the new gestalt~multi-class XP chart. Now, a better question is how I'll be handling favoured classes. Right now I'm thinking that normally, only the four basic classes (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, and Cleric) will be allowed for the double- and triple-class combinations. A race with one of the other classes as a favoured class will be able to work that class into any combination, and a race with one of the four basic classes as a favoured class will be allowed to make any double-class combination with their favoured class. Humans (and any other race with a favoured class of "any") will be allowed to advance in any triple- or double-class combination." (I have no idea what wuxia is but it sounds asian - enlighten me please :confused: ) Wuxia is, essentially, extreme fantasy martial arts with the flying and the shadowless kicks and the supernatural techniques. Stuff you can see in movies like The Duel, Zu: Warriors of the Magic Mountain, The Odyssey parts 1 & 2, Shaolin Soccer, Kung Fu Cult Master, or even the Chinese television series The Master Swordsman (which is the same story as The Duel, actually).
mhacdebhandia 02-22-04, 06:11 AM	Originally posted by Banpai I think its great that you take so much of your time to preapare a campaign for your players but make shure that you can handle it, such a campaging needs more preparation. Oh, what I said actually meant that, six months ago, I was talking about running a wuxia campaign, but never did anything with it. Now my friends are nagging me to do something with it using gestalt classes. I sinply have to suggest you to search / create a variant Monk class, perhaps a less mystical martial artist or it might become a little bit to mystic if everyone is a Monk. (I have no idea what wuxia is but it sounds asian - enlighten me please :confused: ) Yes, wuxia is a Chinese term. The basic idea is that excellence becomes mystical - people can fly because of their highly-developed skills at combat. Movies like The Bride With White Hair, Chinese Ghost Story and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon are wuxia flicks - and a great deal of Jet Li's movies are in the genre. That's why having every character be a monk/whatever gestalt is perfect - the unarmed and unarmoured fighting abilities and mobility of a monk is exactly what everyone has in a wuxia campaign, where the most protection they ever have is silk or cotton shirts and mental discipline. :ayyyy!:
Banpai 02-22-04, 12:34 PM	Tenzhi and mhacdebhandia thanks for your explanations about wuxia campaigns :bow: i will add wuxia campaign to the list of campaign themes in point one, chause I think its really an interresting theme for a gestalt campagin. mhacdebhandia now that i know what a wuxia campaign really is forget what I said about a wuxia campagin a Gestalt built with monk seems to be exactly the right thing for something like that. Consider using the Drunken master ( I adore:bow: the old Jacky Chan drunken Master movies) and the shou disciple (a Prc form unnaproachable east that allows you to flurry with all weapons) they are my two favorites. now Part 5 hope you like it. 5. Suggested additional variants Other that using the obvious Gestalt campaign variant rule (try a Gestalt campaign without Gestalt the results are surprysingly :smirk: )the fractional Base Bonuses rule helps preventing things like that: Character starts with WIZ 1/ Cleric 1 so at level 1 BAB of 0 this continues WIZ 2/ Sor 2 at level 2 the Wiz grands +1 to BAB while level 1 as sor gives no BAB bonus. At level 3 WIZ 3/Cleric 1 Sorcerer2 level 3 as wizard grands no BAB increase but level 2 Sor does so BAB 2 at level 3. If you continue this like that you can have a freaking BAB 19 at level 20, while this was noway intended by the creators if this variant IMO. If you use this variant rule this kind of "cheating" is no longer possible chause you would add in the example with the WIZ / SOR 0.5 to BAB every time you obtain a new level. Other housrules may be necessary to close certain loopholes your PCs may discover. When using UA you have to consider carfully which additional rules you take from UA so certain Gestalt combinations donīt become much stronger than other Gestalts. 6 Gestalt Prestige Classes Now it commes the really creative part, as mentioned in the Gestalt description Gestalt PrCs simply break the rules for normal PrCs, they have powers other PrCs can only dream of but you pay a price for it, you give up two levels for each one in one of those classes. Well Iīm not that creative currently so I need YOUR help to create some of them. Creating a Gestalt PrC follows simillar guidlines as creating a normal one but as the powers grow so do the requirements. While a Prc that requires BAB 5 and casting 4 level spells and 4 feats is rather difficult to get in soon in non-Gestalt campagins its easy as pie in for a Gestalt character to meet. On the other hand a PrC requiring levels 7 arcane spells level 7 divine spells 8 metamagic feats ranks in spellcraft, knowledge religion, arcana,history and the planes well thats far beyound the reach of non-epic non-gestalt characters but certainly in the reach of a mid-high level Gestalt. I canīt provide such a PrC jet but I will open a thread about them soon. 7 Challenge Gestalts! Gestalts need at least as much challenge as other charachters but a Gestalt challgenge needs to be tailor made for the PCs so they can deal with with them neither to easy nor too difficult. The options Gestalts have can make it very difficult to design adventurs when the PCs have such an abundance of options avaiable. Maybe I can find a good example soon but currently there comes none to mind.
Banpai 02-22-04, 06:11 PM	I am so shameless:nonono: anayway:bump: simply have to :twitch:
Xorial 02-23-04, 09:30 AM	I recieved my copy of UA Friday, & really liked the gestalt idea. After reading the book thru a couple or 12 times, I thought of something for the gestalts. The Gestalt charatcers could be used in a number of ways. One way is to use them on the long-lived races. Gestalt has elf & drow written all over it. Such races have the time to divide to a "dual" path. As the article said, they arent truly twice as powerful as a standard character. Easier than changing the CR of an encounter, you should add a ECL +2 to the character. The long lived races could be allowed to do this if they want. Shorter lived races can use gestalt only if one of the first classes they choose is one of the racial paragon classes, showing that they are outside the norm for their race. I would make it more likely that NPCs are at least PC classed, rather than wimpy NPC classed. At least use the generic classes presented in place of NPC classes. The ECL will slow down the character progression, eliminating the need to impose any other XP penalty.
Banpai 02-23-04, 11:49 AM	@Xoral definitly an interresting idea to make a large part of the Elves Gestalts. But I simply have to disagree with the ECL+2 while this might be balaced at low levels the ECL doesnīt longer matter as soon as you are level 8-10. Seriously what would you rather play a level 10 drow cleric or a level 10 Wizard/10Fighter Grey Elf?
Xorial 02-23-04, 11:59 AM	Normally, an ECL really means nothing at the higher levels, but this ECL would scale as you go up, because the power of the gestalt will scale. This ECL would be in addition to any racial ECL. I would allow the racial ECL to be "bought off", as per the variant rules in UA, but I would never allow the ECL from being a gestalt be bought off. I'm not sure of the math, but it seems to be close to a 30% effective XP penalty when you use ECLs. The idea that ECL isnt effective at higher levels come from the fact that the racial abilities that produce one, are outstipped at later levels by the available magic items & class abilties. An ECL from being a Gestalt wouldnt be. He will ALWAYS be a little tougher than a standard character, due to his options.
Ertai Planeswalker 02-23-04, 01:35 PM	Experience table including Gestalt characters: Lvl: Normal: Gestalt: 2 1000 1500 3 3000 4500 4 6000 9000 5 10000 15000 (Non-Gestalts are now 1 level ahead) 6 15000 22500 7 21000 31500 8 28000 42000 9 36000 54000 10 45000 67500 (Non-Gestalts are now 2 levels ahead) 11 55000 77500 12 66000 99000 13 78000 117000 14 91000 136500 (Non-Gestalts are now 3 levels ahead) 15 105000 157500 16 120000 180000 17 136000 204000 (Non-Gestalts are now 4 levels ahead, and Epic) 18 153000 229500 19 171000 256500 20 190000 285000 -----------------Epic------------------ 21 210000 315000 22 231000 346500 23 253000 379500 24 276000 414000 (Non-Gestalts are now 5 level ahead) 25 300000 450000 26 326000 489000 27 352000 528000 28 380000 570000 (Non-Gestalts are now 6 levels ahead) 29 409000 613500 30 438000 657000 31 468000 702000 32 500000 750000 (Non-Gestalts are now 7 levels ahead) 33 532000 798000 34 565000 847500 35 599000 898500 36 634000 951000 37 670000 1005000 38 707000 1060500 39 745000 1117500 40 784000 1176000 Unless you boost your casterlevel with orange ioun stones or a custom item, spellcasters get screwed, but otherwise it seems ok. At epic, i think Gestalts are even stronger, since they have double feat acquisition IIRC.
Xorial 02-23-04, 01:57 PM	I think that shows what I'm saying. It looks like a good way to balance the gestalts with non-gestalts. The bonus feats at Epic just plays along with the way a gestalt is ran. You could house rule that bonus epic feats are NOT aquired by both classes, but at the most favorable rate instead. It has been pointed out that bonus feats at epic levels may, or may not, come at the same frequency as bonus feats earned earlier. It is a moot point for the fighter, but some PrCs have a BF progression, & thier epic progression is different. I dont have a problem with them getting both, since feats may be all that the class truly gets after 20th level (ie, sorcerers & wizards).
Banpai 02-23-04, 05:57 PM	Xoral and Ertai Planeswaltker I agree totaly with you and thank you for this great addition to this thread I have to :bow: in from of this.
strenoth 02-23-04, 06:18 PM	just as a side note, rather than create a seperate XP chart like Ertai's, one coudl impose and Xp penalty instead, and it woudl workt eh same rather than keep trakc of a second chart. for example: to match Ertai's chart, one would impose a 33% (ie, 1/3) penalty to a Gestalt character. Thus, if a non-gestalt and a gestalt character have collected 1500 XP, the Gestalted character has lost 33% of his Xp to the penalty, leaving him with actually only 1000 Xp, and when 9000 XP had been awared to both characters, the gestalt actually only has 6000XP, etc. it keeps the levels matching as per the chart, just remember to award XP to every one, then make sure to remove 33% of it. If youa ren;t great with math, the fast way to do this with a calculator is to multily by 2 and divide by 3 (which is the same as multiplying by 2/3rds) to get the final Xp for that character.
Banpai 02-23-04, 09:12 PM	I know its not, but a 33% XP penality seems soo hard compaired to to non-Gestalts. Good Job :D
CompleteSatori 02-24-04, 01:33 AM	Is everyone ignoring the rest of the entry under Variant Rule: Gestalt Characters? First off, you dont change their ECL, you change the CR's they encounter by 1 higher, or 2 if you wish to challenge them. This challenges them, but levels them faster (one of the side effects). Second, you dont Gestalt monsters, they remain the same, but are encountered earlier by the characters than normal. Its only NPCs and other creatures WITH CLASSES that get Gestalt classes. Not monsters with HD advancement. Its pretty clear, and works much more smoothly that some of the clunky, "add +2 ECL and change the whole experience/level chart" methods. Andy Collins and the really smart people who published the book put in their thoughts on balancing each of the Variant rules, follow them, these guys know what they are doing, and you will find that the less houseruling you are doing, the smoother things will run.
strenoth 02-24-04, 01:48 AM	haven;t you read what was being talked about? a varient rule if you include gestalt characters into a campaign that has non-gestalt characters, that's what the Xp penalty is about.
Ertai Planeswalker 02-24-04, 10:19 AM	I think i'm going to try this. Once my pc's finish the current dungeon (Sunless Citadel, they're 3rd level) i will throw a Gestalt party at them as a random encounter. (Other adventuring group tries to rob them of their belongings) I wonder what will come of this. Also, Gestalt characters will be lacking in casterlevels. In fact, at level 14, they will be of equal casterlevel with Mystic Theurges, and at level 17 they even have 1 less casterlevel than an MT!! So like an MT, they need casterlevel boosts. Deducting the formula from the Orange Ioun Stone, a +X casterlevel item would cost X*X*15000Gp. The most expensive slotted casterlevel boosting item that is non-epic would grant a +3 bonus to casterlevel, for 135000Gp. However, since it is a stacking bonus, one would be better of investing in ioun stones. (Except for a +1 slotted item, which would cost 15000Gp) You really need these to penetrate SR. Also, Spell Penetration is your friend.
Xorial 02-24-04, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori Is everyone ignoring the rest of the entry under Variant Rule: Gestalt Characters? First off, you dont change their ECL, you change the CR's they encounter by 1 higher, or 2 if you wish to challenge them. This challenges them, but levels them faster (one of the side effects). Second, you dont Gestalt monsters, they remain the same, but are encountered earlier by the characters than normal. Its only NPCs and other creatures WITH CLASSES that get Gestalt classes. Not monsters with HD advancement. Its pretty clear, and works much more smoothly that some of the clunky, "add +2 ECL and change the whole experience/level chart" methods. Andy Collins and the really smart people who published the book put in their thoughts on balancing each of the Variant rules, follow them, these guys know what they are doing, and you will find that the less houseruling you are doing, the smoother things will run. Well I guess you didnt read my post right. I said that you could accomplish the same thing with the +2 ECL. That would be for those that run Gestalt & non-Gestalt together. A +2 ECL is the same as an XP penalty without the funky calculations. They are done already in the chart as written. +2 ECL seems much easier than a percentage penalty ore adjusting the already existing CRs. A CR 9 creature would be approrite for a 7th level Gestalt, just as the CR adjustment would do in the Variant rule.
Ertai Planeswalker 02-24-04, 06:56 PM	I've been thinking and i fell somewhat stupid that i had not thought of it before, but here goes: A 33% Xp penalty is not the way to go for a Gestalt charatcer. While the numbers may seem equal when leveling, there is also the xp you lose when crafting magic items. Since you give the Gestalt 33% less Xp instead of having him gain 50% more to gain a level, you are effectively making a Gestalt character pay 33% more Xp then a normal character when crafting magic items. So you should really use a different XP for level table instead of an XP penalty.
Banpai 02-24-04, 07:36 PM	Thank you Ertai for mentioning that - I had a similar idea in mind but could have never write it down as accurate and simple as you did. And as you mentioned in your post with the EXP table spellcasters get indeed screwed, but you can work arround that if you take a divine and an arcane caster class and take archmage and hierophant(no reason not to take hierophant at epic levels). Those spell power boni can make up for that, though certain Archmage abilities are simply better than Spell Power. A question if allowed about a previous posts: Are my suggestions well written enough to help other DM with their Gestalt campaigns, or do I need to furhter improve it?
Banpai 03-01-04, 10:15 PM	I am currently preparing a Gestalt campagin and I thought it would be nice to share my thoughts with others to get some oppinions about what I thought up. The campagin will play in the forgotten realms (as most of my campaigns do) and will be based upon an mercenary organisation that trains young children from many races (though all humanoids and mainly humans) as soldiers or mercenaries. After their trainig is complete usually stay within the ranks of the organisation and recieve payment based on the jobs they recieve from the organisation. The organisation hires its members to anyone who can pay their price, demands service that does not violate the law and meets the organisations moral code of actions (with other words, they chose who recieves the opportunity to hire them) As for classes and anlignement I have chosen the following: No druid, cleric, paladin (but neutral variants) and rangers is really not suggested ether. Alignement has to be any good or neutral (I usually say no evil chars, its based upon bad experience) and its fairly shure that almost all will start as with a neutral alignment. The following classes are definitely allowed: all not mentioned above from PHB and Evangelist, Battel Sorcerer, Thug (though I dislike the name) the barbarian as well as the monk variants (as well as whirling frenzy) other may be possible too. The players have the instruction not to make too religious characters. As for races no half-orcs(not disciplined enough) gnomes( as half-orcs) Additionally I am going to create special custom made Prestige classes for my players to help them to better fit in. The characters may start with 2 traits and 2 flaws chosen together by the player and me (this will certainly create more of them).
Ertai Planeswalker 03-01-04, 11:59 PM	Why no rangers? Someone who needs a guide in the wilderness could resort to such a norganization as well, and a ranger is t3h man for the job.
Wil_Hyral 03-02-04, 04:35 AM	I still impose a 50% penalty of experience on gestalt characters. That's right, gestalts have a harder time crafting and they know this up front. I'm prepared to deal with that effect. But what you could do is keep the experience penalty on the Gestalts and just divide the experience cost by half or whatever your fraction is. That way, slow progression but the items take similar suit.
Banpai 03-02-04, 03:56 PM	Right Ertai rangers are definitely usefull for such an organisation, but the problem with rangers is IMO that rangers usuall stay in the wild and are usually not usefull in most situations and many adventures, but much more effective for the group outside in the wild. I decided to exclude them together with druids chause there wonīt be so many wilderness adventures I want to send them on and a Druid without the wild feels rather useless. To open pandoras box I am atempting to to create a campagin on the evil games Final Fantasy 7 and 8 (I know using ideas from video games is usually a bad and vile thing but I am curious how the mix or D&D Forgotten Realms and a tech reduced FF will work out) and the Gestalt variant rule finally gives me the option to challenge my players with truly great enemies(Sephiroth comes to mind). The organisations is "lend" or if you prefere stolen form FF8 :schemes: and I hope I can DM such an epic story with out to much loss of story. I would love to get some response on this :)
Xorial 03-02-04, 04:19 PM	Not that I would like to encourage anybody into doing vile things, but there was a Final Fantasy d20 website at one time. It isnt something I personally am into, but if you can find it, that may help you.
Banpai 03-02-04, 05:09 PM	Thx for the help but to make one thing clear I really didnīt wanted to transform D&D into FF which would really be a vile thing. I want to rip the story out of the game(s) and create a campagin based on it. Its the same with DBZ(someone mentioned it while saying how overpowered gestaltsa are) and MTG(have seen some atempts on this forum9 while I like them both as what they are I donīt think that D&D is the right place for them. Not to insult anyone who made or likes this stuff, its definitely good work but not the right thing for my games (jet).
Ertai Planeswalker 03-02-04, 09:03 PM	Originally posted by Banpai Right Ertai rangers are definitely usefull for such an organisation, but the problem with rangers is IMO that rangers usuall stay in the wild and are usually not usefull in most situations and many adventures, but much more effective for the group outside in the wild. I decided to exclude them together with druids chause there wonīt be so many wilderness adventures I want to send them on and a Druid without the wild feels rather useless. To open pandoras box I am atempting to to create a campagin on the evil games Final Fantasy 7 and 8 (I know using ideas from video games is usually a bad and vile thing but I am curious how the mix or D&D Forgotten Realms and a tech reduced FF will work out) and the Gestalt variant rule finally gives me the option to challenge my players with truly great enemies(Sephiroth comes to mind). The organisations is "lend" or if you prefere stolen form FF8 :schemes: and I hope I can DM such an epic story with out to much loss of story. I would love to get some response on this :) I'm sorry, but i know jack about FF. But the name Sephiroth i hear a lot. I assume he is from FF? Can you tell me something about him, although it is off-topic?
Wil_Hyral 03-02-04, 09:08 PM	A secret passion of mine is Final Fantasy. I'm not mega into anime (anymore) but I have all the Final Fantasies released except a couple on offbeat systems, and I might be able to help. Sephiroth was an ancient, and it's really difficult to discern which faction was lying more about him, but more or less, I'll keep it in the thread's intention. Basically, Sephiroth wasn't too bad at casting spells alongside using his sword (the jacked name of Masamune, which bore a likewise legendary quality to the sword of the same name.) This was due to numerous factors, but the most was his ability to use materia (which were necessary gems with which magic could be cast.) So that's how he would fit into a gestalt discussion. This is in sharp contrast to Edea, who was a half-villain of Final Fantasy VIII, who was more or less restricted to magical powers (and her title was even "the Sorceress"). I wouldn't classify her as anything but a sorcerer, off the top of my head. (I can't remember if she could cure. If so, I'd call her a cleric.) Hope that helps. It's grossly incomplete, but I'm trying to relate it to gestalt-ness.
Banpai 03-02-04, 10:30 PM	I am curious, would it be a good idea to request the players to Gestalt with a spellcasting class, preferable Sorcerer or Evangelist(Hexblade is in consideration but it has such a smell of evilness like all non good classes). I hope that it would work well and since all of characters were trained by the organisation it should not be such a surprise for them that many in their ranks have such powers too. I really need more input, especially about having a group full of casters, maybe someone out there has some information for me how something like that has turned out in his campaign.
Ertai Planeswalker 03-02-04, 11:08 PM	Ok after receiving a PM from Banpai i know a little of Big S's background. He could indeed be a Paragon gestalt. If he indeed casts magic from crystals maybe a Fighter/Psion instead... Helps since arcane magic has ASF. Since he is a paragon, all his stats will be high enough for all disciplines and he has +13 to his dc because of the paragon abilities. Something along the lines of Fighter 50/Psion 50. Together with the Paragon Template, that would put his CR at about 70. You guys know more than i do about that sword of his, but it's probably a +10 Huge Katana of Uberl33tness or something. Depending on his genes, you can give him unique special feats.
Billco 10-07-06, 11:48 PM	I have started running a gestalt campaign recently. The gist of the world is Midnight (Lord of the Rings where Sauron wins) and some amount of Steam Punk. The main thrust of the Midnight setting is that the only god is one of absolute evil, ergo no cleric, druid, paladin or ranger spells. Also, magic is a terribly powerful and corrupting force. The reason I decided to go for gestalt is that the characters are freedom fighters, constantly on the run, low on hit point and equiptment. It seems to have worked out spectacularly so far, but there are a couple of hitches and I was wondering if anyone else has encountered these problems: 1) Low player hit point/damage ratio. My players have a fairly normal amount of hit points for their given level. The problem is that they can dish out massive amounts of damage (example: thief/soulknife flanking). This basicly leads to a kill or be killed situation in every fight. If they need a few rounds to kill a monster, it can almost certainly deal enough damage to kill the players. On the other hand, if the monster would need time to injure the players, it will almost certainly go down without much of a fight. To compensate, I have been basicly doubling the hit points of any monster the characters attack. Any thoughts on how to balence this out? 2) Following from the first problem is that it is very difficult to choose an appropriate CR. A monster two CRs above the average character level can present a wildly varying challenge to the party. Any thoughts on how to choose a better assortment of enemies? We have the armies of the Dark Lord to choose from, so pretty much anything goes. Cheers, Thanks for any help!
rydi123 10-09-06, 01:54 AM	hmm... add in smaller targets to swarm the characters. give them low hit points, but make a bunch of them, and make thier damage low. that way, the characters will get hit a bit, but only in small increments, instead of one really big hit taking them down. in my experience, at low levels gestalts are at most a +1LA. higher up they are dangerous, but at lower levels they have such low numbers that all the special abilities in the world won't be enough to help them against an orc critting with a battleaxe. so, feel free to just use monsters of their level or weak one of one CR higher. but with these sorts of games you have to be prepared to feel out what is challenging for your party.
Vengeblade 10-09-06, 09:12 AM	I've been running gestalt campaigns for almost a year now, here's what I have learned: 1. For most concepts, it is just easier for all players to be gestalt (same XP system, just with the two classes). Most players would want to play a dual class anyways. If you still want to try mixing it up, in my opinion, the sepereate xp charts seems like the smoothest transistion. The idea here is to allow better and stronger character options w/o adding too much for the DM to have to work around. 2. CR is subjective to begin with. Now it's almost hit and miss. The first 2 levels should be run almost as normal, maybe an extra goblin or two. Levels 3-8 should use the standard CR +1 for single monsters (make sure to match them up against the party, CR won't mean anything if your party is built well agaisnt a certain type of monster.) or three CR -1 monsters is about right. Levels 9-14 Single monsters of CR+1 or +2 should have max or double HP. Using two monsters should be standard by now, use 2 CR or CR+1 monsters for standard encounters. Levels 15 are ahrd to judge, I feel that you should use 2 CR to CR+2 monsters with max HP. Single creatures should not really be used unless they are gestalt and even then should be 4 or 5 levels above the party to insure a threat. 3. Watch out for incarnate. I love incarnate, but as we;ve seen it meshes well with others classes. In gestalt, that goes double if not more. For example, I had a goliath barbarian/incarnate that could outdamage any mage. He was hitting for about 120 a hit on a non-cirt, and usually hit 3 out of 4 attacks. Incarnate has ways of boosting abilities,attacks, skills, etc. too a point that that character detracts from everyone else. 4. Level adjusted races should be used sparingly for gestalts. No more than LA+1 or +2 for them. There have been many ways to do LA for gestalts, but it's never truly balanced and characters get more bang for their buck, most people grab a mental boosting race with a double caster. 5. If you go with the rules that everyone has to play gestalt, that does not mean the whole world has to be gestalt. I have a world where the players are just born "gifted", like many, but not all, NPCs. It's such a headache sometimes, to have to plan all those out when just a few non gestalt people would suffice for the event, scene, etc. 6. Try to discourage same class stacking. It's not overpowered, it's just when you have a fighter/barbarian, cleric/healer, rogue/scout, and wizard/sorcerer for the party, that's not really much different than the standard. Most characters should have a main role and emphasize that, but they should have a secondary role that's different. This prevents people who commonly get pigeonholed into being the healer or tank role always having to do so. This makes the party more modular and adaptable. This also helps characters from feeling helpless at times (like the rogue fighting undead all the time), giving them options they normally wouldn't have. That's all I can remember for now. Forgive my typing, I'm tired and one of my main typing fingers is really hurt. Any questions just ask.
Millennium 10-09-06, 09:38 AM	I've been playing around with the idea for a Kingdom Hearts d20 game for a while now. Early in both KH1 and KH2 is an "Awakening sequence" where the character chooses the path he will take in the game. As part of this, he is given a choice of three "weapons" -a sword, a shield, and a staff- and he must choose one of these to choose his path. In the first game, he must also explicitly throw one of the weapons away. Incidentally, the shield doesn't symbolize defense: it symbolizes general utility. I've been thinking of simulating this with a combination of Gestalt and Generics. You choose two of the three classes to set up your character development, but then you can never take the third. It's not a perfect match for the Awakening, since you throw a weapon away rather than choosing it, but otherwise the three generic classes -Warrior, Expert, and Spellcaster- seem to line up well with the three weapons: Sword, Shield, and Staff.