Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Count Arioch the 28th 09-01-07, 01:58 AM	Note that most of htese, I either lifted from UA or other sources, so if you recognize something that someone else posted, don't get cocky, I'm not claiming the ideas as my own. Books Allowed: Player’s Handbook Player’s Handbook II Expanded Psionics Handbook Complete Warrior Complete Divine Complete Arcane Complete Adventurer Complete Psionic Tome of Magic Tome of Battle Major Mechanical Changes 1. Defense bonus. When unarmored, every PC class gains an armor bonus to AC based on their armor proficiency level. Those bonuses are as follows: Heavy armor: +6 Medium Armor: +4 Light Armor: +3 No armor: +2 In addition, you may add 1/3 your class level to the bonus you are entitled to. Note that the bonuses overlap, not stack. For example, a 1st level wizard (+2 armor) then takes a level of fighter (+6 armor). The armor bonus while unarmored is +6, not +8. Upon gaining another level, regardless of class the bonus increases by another +1 (In this case, the character takes another level of wizard, and has +7 armor bonus while unarmored.) If you are entitled to this armor bonus (i.e., not armored), this bonus also applies to touch attacks, unlike normal armor bonuses. 2. Magic Rating Every character will now have a “Magic Rating”. A magic rating is very much like a magical BaB. When casting spells or manifesting powers, you use your Magic Rating to determine your spellcaster level for all effects, not just the level in the class. Note that this does not affect power points, spells or powers known, or spells/powers per day, merely the effects that the spells are cast or powers are manifested. Classes rated “A” have a magic rating of +1 per level. Classes rated “B” have a magic rating of +1/2 level. Classes rated “C” have a magic rating of +1/4 level. A: Bard, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, Duskblade, Favored Soul, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Shadowcaster, Spirit Shaman, Warlock, Wilder, Wizard, Wu Jen B: Binder, Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Hexblade, Lurk, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Soulknife, Spellthief, Truenamer C: Barbarian, Crusader, Fighter, Knight, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Swashbuckler, Sword sage, Warblade Example: Rory is a 4th level fighter/ 4th level beguiler. Since he has 4 fighter levels (+1 magic rating) and 4 beguiler levels (+4 magic rating), he casts all his spells at 5th caster level, but has the spells per day and spells known of a fourth level beguiler. If Rory takes a level of psion, his magic rating increases by +1 again, so he casts spells and manifests powers as a 6th level caster (including the maximum he can augment a power), but has the powers known and power points of a 1st level psion. Special cases: Binding is a class ability unique to the binder class, not spellcasting. It does not benefit from magic ratings. Truename magic is based off a skill check, not a caster level, truenaming is unaffected by magic ratings. Shadowcasting is in fact close enough to spellcasting to be affected by magic ratings. Martial Adepts: All classes add ˝ level to your maneuver level, as per the rules in Tome of Battle. Skills: 1. Spot and Listen are now one skill, Perception. 2. Hide and Move Silently are now one skill, stealth. 3. Open Lock has been merged with Disable Device. You may use either dex or int to determine your bonus to disable device, whichever is higher. 4. Profession is now a skill in the vein of Speak Language. You put 1 rank in Profession and you know one profession. . Spells: 1. If you use a wish to duplicate a spell that doesn’t have an exp cost, gain 25,000 gp in currency, or wish of a magical item that’s less than 15,000 gp, it costs no EXP to cast. 2. Clerics and Druids may only have 1 spell per level that’s not in the PHB. Classes: 1. I will allow any class variant printed in either Unearthed Arcana or Player’s Handbook II. Exception: Paladins of Freedom detect and smite law. Paladins of Tyranny detect and smite chaos. This supercedes the text in Unearthed Arcana. Bannings: The following things have been banned from my game permanently. You will not see these used by NPCs, you will not use them yourselves. Nightsticks Animated Shields Natural Spell Artificiers
bartleby42 09-01-07, 03:48 AM	1. Defense bonus. When unarmored, every PC class gains an armor bonus to AC based on their armor proficiency level. Those bonuses are as follows: Heavy armor: +6 Medium Armor: +4 Light Armor: +3 No armor: +2 In addition, you may add 1/3 your class level to the bonus you are entitled to. Note that the bonuses overlap, not stack. For example, a 1st level wizard (+2 armor) then takes a level of fighter (+6 armor). The armor bonus while unarmored is +6, not +8. Upon gaining another level, regardless of class the bonus increases by another +1 (In this case, the character takes another level of wizard, and has +7 armor bonus while unarmored.) If you are entitled to this armor bonus (i.e., not armored), this bonus also applies to touch attacks, unlike normal armor bonuses. I don't know how this will work out, but it seems to encourage a level dip into fighter, or better yet cleric. Think about it, +6 AC, minor curing ability and some domain powers, all for a level, and arcane caster or light armor wearer would be a fool not to do that. 2. Magic Rating Every character will now have a “Magic Rating”. A magic rating is very much like a magical BaB. When casting spells or manifesting powers, you use your Magic Rating to determine your spellcaster level for all effects, not just the level in the class. Note that this does not affect power points, spells or powers known, or spells/powers per day, merely the effects that the spells are cast or powers are manifested. Classes rated “A” have a magic rating of +1 per level. Classes rated “B” have a magic rating of +1/2 level. Classes rated “C” have a magic rating of +1/4 level. A: Bard, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, Duskblade, Favored Soul, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Shadowcaster, Spirit Shaman, Warlock, Wilder, Wizard, Wu Jen B: Binder, Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Hexblade, Lurk, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Soulknife, Spellthief, Truenamer C: Barbarian, Crusader, Fighter, Knight, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Swashbuckler, Sword sage, Warblade Example: Rory is a 4th level fighter/ 4th level beguiler. Since he has 4 fighter levels (+1 magic rating) and 4 beguiler levels (+4 magic rating), he casts all his spells at 5th caster level, but has the spells per day and spells known of a fourth level beguiler. If Rory takes a level of psion, his magic rating increases by +1 again, so he casts spells and manifests powers as a 6th level caster (including the maximum he can augment a power), but has the powers known and power points of a 1st level psion. Special cases: Binding is a class ability unique to the binder class, not spellcasting. It does not benefit from magic ratings. Truename magic is based off a skill check, not a caster level, truenaming is unaffected by magic ratings. Shadowcasting is in fact close enough to spellcasting to be affected by magic ratings. Martial Adepts: All classes add ˝ level to your maneuver level, as per the rules in Tome of Battle. Once again, level dips are much more powerful, so your Wizard who took a level of cleric for the armor, doesn't lose a caster level and can cast his meager selection of cleric spells at full caster level. This plus the solution to lousy AC for mages makes all of your non-caster characters feel left out. Skills: 1. Spot and Listen are now one skill, Perception. 2. Hide and Move Silently are now one skill, stealth. 3. Open Lock has been merged with Disable Device. You may use either dex or int to determine your bonus to disable device, whichever is higher. 4. Profession is now a skill in the vein of Speak Language. You put 1 rank in Profession and you know one profession. . Keep on preaching the skill folding, good rule. I think that appraise and forgery should be folded, otherwise merchants couldn't recognized forged money/documents. (In order to recognize a forgery you make a forgery check) Spells: 1. If you use a wish to duplicate a spell that doesn’t have an exp cost, gain 25,000 gp in currency, or wish of a magical item that’s less than 15,000 gp, it costs no EXP to cast. So it's okay to get all the money in the world as long as you don't do it in one fell swoop? I don't quite understand the motivation behind this rule, could you explain? 2. Clerics and Druids may only have 1 spell per level that’s not in the PHB. I like to think that either a spell is balanced or not. This seems like a half measure. When I DM, and all my friends for that matter, all spells in the PHB are considered clear, all others you must present to the DM for approval. If the DM dislikes or feels the spell needs changing it is handled on a case by case biases. This is simpler and doesn't have the problem of denying a good spell for flavor and campaign specific reasons due to two of them landing on the same level. Classes: 1. I will allow any class variant printed in either Unearthed Arcana or Player’s Handbook II. Exception: Paladins of Freedom detect and smite law. Paladins of Tyranny detect and smite chaos. This supercedes the text in Unearthed Arcana. Cool beans and I like the flavor differences. Bannings: The following things have been banned from my game permanently. You will not see these used by NPCs, you will not use them yourselves. Nightsticks Animated Shields Natural Spell Artificiers Wow that's harsh. A cleric wants a nightstick because there are a lot of undead, doesn't have any divine feats, nor divine metamagic, and bam! he can't play with you ever again. Ouch. Why not just say "Nightstick turn attempts cannot be used as turn attempts for feats or class abilities." Animated shields aren't that bad, and if you have abuse from them, have a baddie get sunder happy. Natural spell is a little overpowered. I'm of the stance of making it metamagic at +1 level, it seems to even it out. Artificers are a tricky subject. Then can be used for massive cheese, but as a concept for a character they can be used just fine. I think the blanket ban is way too harsh. Have an open mind and just explain to you PCs that you have had bad experiences in the past with these items/feats/classes and withhold the right to adjust/remove the items if it becomes a problem with the game. "Banning" is a silly solution to a problem that can be solved by talking to you players.
Need_A_Life 09-01-07, 04:38 AM	Books Allowed: Player’s Handbook Player’s Handbook II Expanded Psionics Handbook Complete Warrior Complete Divine Complete Arcane Complete Expert Complete Psionic Tome of Magic Tome of Battle It's limited from the look of the campaigns I've been in, which have been "show me what you want, present an argument and odds are I'll allow it unless it breaks flavour or is outright broken" Still, that's mostly a question of ones comfort zone and I can hardly argue against limiting books, though I'd suggest a "players are welcome to present material from other books, to be (dis)allowed on a case-to-case basis" Major Mechanical Changes 1. Defense bonus. When unarmored, every PC class gains an armor bonus to AC based on their armor proficiency level. Those bonuses are as follows: Heavy armor: +6 Medium Armor: +4 Light Armor: +3 No armor: +2 In addition, you may add 1/3 your class level to the bonus you are entitled to. Note that the bonuses overlap, not stack. For example, a 1st level wizard (+2 armor) then takes a level of fighter (+6 armor). The armor bonus while unarmored is +6, not +8. Upon gaining another level, regardless of class the bonus increases by another +1 (In this case, the character takes another level of wizard, and has +7 armor bonus while unarmored.) If you are entitled to this armor bonus (i.e., not armored), this bonus also applies to touch attacks, unlike normal armor bonuses. Man, making a Mystic Theruge never looked more beautiful. You get +4AC for it... or a Cleric/Monk for that matter. Masters of AC! 2. Magic Rating Every character will now have a “Magic Rating”. A magic rating is very much like a magical BaB. When casting spells or manifesting powers, you use your Magic Rating to determine your spellcaster level for all effects, not just the level in the class. Note that this does not affect power points, spells or powers known, or spells/powers per day, merely the effects that the spells are cast or powers are manifested. Classes rated “A” have a magic rating of +1 per level. Classes rated “B” have a magic rating of +1/2 level. Classes rated “C” have a magic rating of +1/4 level. A: Bard, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, Duskblade, Favored Soul, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Shadowcaster, Spirit Shaman, Warlock, Wilder, Wizard, Wu Jen B: Binder, Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Hexblade, Lurk, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Soulknife, Spellthief, Truenamer C: Barbarian, Crusader, Fighter, Knight, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Swashbuckler, Sword sage, Warblade Example: Rory is a 4th level fighter/ 4th level beguiler. Since he has 4 fighter levels (+1 magic rating) and 4 beguiler levels (+4 magic rating), he casts all his spells at 5th caster level, but has the spells per day and spells known of a fourth level beguiler. If Rory takes a level of psion, his magic rating increases by +1 again, so he casts spells and manifests powers as a 6th level caster (including the maximum he can augment a power), but has the powers known and power points of a 1st level psion. Special cases: Binding is a class ability unique to the binder class, not spellcasting. It does not benefit from magic ratings. Truename magic is based off a skill check, not a caster level, truenaming is unaffected by magic ratings. Shadowcasting is in fact close enough to spellcasting to be affected by magic ratings. Martial Adepts: All classes add ˝ level to your maneuver level, as per the rules in Tome of Battle. So it's like Martial Adepts adding levels of other classes to determine level? On one hand I think it's the only fair thing, but on the other I know how broken this can get. Skills: 1. Spot and Listen are now one skill, Perception. 2. Hide and Move Silently are now one skill, stealth. 3. Open Lock has been merged with Disable Device. You may use either dex or int to determine your bonus to disable device, whichever is higher. 4. Profession is now a skill in the vein of Speak Language. You put 1 rank in Profession and you know one profession. 1-3 are changes I like, though I'd be hesitant to introduce #1 and #2. No. 4 however, I absolutely love. Consider that one joinked. Spells: 1. If you use a wish to duplicate a spell that doesn’t have an exp cost, gain 25,000 gp in currency, or wish of a magical item that’s less than 15,000 gp, it costs no EXP to cast. 2. Clerics and Druids may only have 1 spell per level that’s not in the PHB. No. 1 allows infinite money (though at that level balance is a token thing, anyway). I don't like no. 2, period. Not that I usually play druids or (when I have) used a lot of non-core spells, but mostly on principle. If the spell is allowed, then it should be just as legitimate as Goodberries. Classes: 1. I will allow any class variant printed in either Unearthed Arcana or Player’s Handbook II. Exception: Paladins of Freedom detect and smite law. Paladins of Tyranny detect and smite chaos. This supercedes the text in Unearthed Arcana.A valid point of view, though I personally disagree with them. Bannings: The following things have been banned from my game permanently. You will not see these used by NPCs, you will not use them yourselves. Nightsticks Animated Shields Natural Spell Artificiers Nightsticks: Meh, never used them. Don't care. Animated Shields: Seen way too many area dispels in my time to bother. Natural Spell: Whoah! Despite not playing druids, this goes against all my common sense. Artificers: You've got to be kidding me on that one? Seriously, what can an artificer do that a wizard couldn't that'd make you want to ban them?
Witch 09-01-07, 06:24 AM	Skills: 1. Spot and Listen are now one skill, Perception. 2. Hide and Move Silently are now one skill, stealth. Both of these make already good skills even better. People already took these because they were just that good, whereas there are other skills (e.g. Autohypnosis, Balance, Jump, Swim, ...) that are worthless in comparison, even though you don't fold these. 3. Open Lock has been merged with Disable Device. You may use either dex or int to determine your bonus to disable device, whichever is higher. Just Dex, imo. Intelligence should play part only in so far as it takes skill points, which are gained by intelligence. But I like the idea of folding these. Open Lock wasn't that useful after all. 4. Profession is now a skill in the vein of Speak Language. You put 1 rank in Profession and you know one profession. Interesting. How do you change the rules for making money? Spells: 1. If you use a wish to duplicate a spell that doesn’t have an exp cost, gain 25,000 gp in currency, or wish of a magical item that’s less than 15,000 gp, it costs no EXP to cast. So by preparing 4 wishes in a day, you get a free 100,000 money? Rince and repeat every day? Bad, bad idea. Replicating spells can be without XP cost (even though the sheer versatility leads me to adding one, but not 5k - I have replicating a spell at an XP cost of 1,000.) Making money should keep an XP cost, otherwise the DM will lose all control over wealth. 2. Clerics and Druids may only have 1 spell per level that’s not in the PHB. This may be too limiting in exact numbers, but I like the idea behind it. Is it per spell level or per class level? The latter appeals to me more. I'd suggest three spells per spell level. Classes: 1. I will allow any class variant printed in either Unearthed Arcana or Player’s Handbook II. Exception: Paladins of Freedom detect and smite law. Paladins of Tyranny detect and smite chaos. This supercedes the text in Unearthed Arcana. While interesting, I think this goes too much towards "Lawful Good is the highest good, Chaotic Evil is the worst evil". I propose to have particular orders or individuals with levels in Paladin of Freedom to pick whether they want Evil or Law as greatest enemy. Similar with Paladins of Tyranny. Bannings: The following things have been banned from my game permanently. You will not see these used by NPCs, you will not use them yourselves. Nightsticks Animated Shields Natural Spell Artificiers Animated shields: understandable - they make sword 'n board pointless. Artificers I don't know a lot about, so I'll ignore them. Regarding Natural Spell & Nightstick, I suggest the following: Nightstick: This ivory rod is inset with religious symbols of various deities of life. After attuning himself with one by keeping it in his possession for at least 24 hours, a nightstick grants a cleric the advantage of the Extra Turning feat. He gains four extra turn attempts per day. A cleric may only be attuned with a single nightstick at any given time. A similar item, an ebony rod carved with various symbols of patrons of death, may be used to gain uses of rebuke undead. Moderate necromancy; CL 10th; Craft Rod, Extra Turning, class ability to turn or rebuke undead; Price 7,500 gp. Natural Spell [Metamagic] Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape ability Benefit: You can prepare spells in such a way that you can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. For purposes of these spells, you can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. A natural spell takes up a spell slot one higher than normal. Special: Druids who have taken the shapeshift alternative class option are able to use Natural Spell, even though the variant restricted this.
KnH 09-01-07, 08:25 AM	By Complete Expert, do you mean Complete Adventurer? Is it just me, or does the Armour thing mean that anyone with a max of Medium armour proficiency would almost be better off with no armour for just about all levels, and that for levels 1-2, people with Heavy armour proficiency are definitely better with no armour? Oh, also, do shields count as being armoured? For the caster level, I'd either have the caster level be 1/2 all other levels, or change the Initiator level to change depending on the BAB of the class- say, if its a full BAB class you get 3/4 Initiator level, three quarters BAB is 1/2 Initiator level, and half BAB is 1/4 Initiator level. Keep it all simple or keep it all 'balanced'. For the XP cost of Wish- are you changing the XP cost of Limited Wish at all? Just wondering.
Tequila_Sunrise 09-01-07, 10:57 AM	Books Allowed: Player’s Handbook Player’s Handbook II Expanded Psionics Handbook Complete Warrior Complete Divine Complete Arcane Complete Expert Complete Psionic Tome of Magic Tome of Battle Good to know. Would other material be flat-out disallowed or would it be subject to your approval? 1. Defense bonus. When unarmored, every PC class gains an armor bonus to AC based on their armor proficiency level. Those bonuses are as follows: Heavy armor: +6 Medium Armor: +4 Light Armor: +3 No armor: +2 In addition, you may add 1/3 your class level to the bonus you are entitled to. Note that the bonuses overlap, not stack. For example, a 1st level wizard (+2 armor) then takes a level of fighter (+6 armor). The armor bonus while unarmored is +6, not +8. Upon gaining another level, regardless of class the bonus increases by another +1 (In this case, the character takes another level of wizard, and has +7 armor bonus while unarmored.) If you are entitled to this armor bonus (i.e., not armored), this bonus also applies to touch attacks, unlike normal armor bonuses. I don't think I like this rule, as it heavily encourages characters to just not wear armor. For example, a suit of +5 full plate grants +13 AC while an unarmored 20th lvl fighter gets +12 AC from this rule. 1 point of AC honestly isn't much of a reason to wear heavy armor. 2. Magic Rating Every character will now have a “Magic Rating”. A magic rating is very much like a magical BaB. When casting spells or manifesting powers, you use your Magic Rating to determine your spellcaster level for all effects, not just the level in the class. Note that this does not affect power points, spells or powers known, or spells/powers per day, merely the effects that the spells are cast or powers are manifested. Classes rated “A” have a magic rating of +1 per level. Classes rated “B” have a magic rating of +1/2 level. Classes rated “C” have a magic rating of +1/4 level. A reasonable rule, but with a lot more text and new terms than necessary. Maybe you could just say that non-associated classes grant a caster level bonus equal to +1/2 or +1/4 their levels. Oh, and why some classes half and others a quarter? Maybe you're trying to encourage certain combos but not others? Skills: 1. Spot and Listen are now one skill, Perception. 2. Hide and Move Silently are now one skill, stealth. 3. Open Lock has been merged with Disable Device. You may use either dex or int to determine your bonus to disable device, whichever is higher. 4. Profession is now a skill in the vein of Speak Language. You put 1 rank in Profession and you know one profession. 1 and 2 make good skills even better, but it does seem to be a common house rule, for whatever that's worth. 3 is fine, but I would personally designate one stat or the other to modify the skill. 4 makes perfect sense. Spells: 1. If you use a wish to duplicate a spell that doesn’t have an exp cost, gain 25,000 gp in currency, or wish of a magical item that’s less than 15,000 gp, it costs no EXP to cast. 2. Clerics and Druids may only have 1 spell per level that’s not in the PHB. 1 makes perfect sense. Have you considered limiting clerics and druids to a certain number of spells per spell level, 10-20 or so? I ask because this rule makes such characters less generic while at the same time limiting the influence of splat books. Classes: 1. I will allow any class variant printed in either Unearthed Arcana or Player’s Handbook II. Exception: Paladins of Freedom detect and smite law. Paladins of Tyranny detect and smite chaos. This supercedes the text in Unearthed Arcana. I'm a bit confused on this one. Are you trying to discourage Paladins of Freedom and Tyranny without outright banning them? Or maybe your campaign focusses on the chaos v law theme? Otherwise I can't imagine too many players (or villains) being thrilled with the idea of smiting chaos/law. The following things have been banned from my game permanently. You will not see these used by NPCs, you will not use them yourselves. Nightsticks Animated Shields Natural Spell Artificiers Perfectly reasonable.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-01-07, 12:37 PM	Alright, I'll address as many concerns as I can here. So it's okay to get all the money in the world as long as you don't do it in one fell swoop? I don't quite understand the motivation behind this rule, could you explain? A lot of people questioned the wish house rules, I will ateempt to address all of them in one go. I'm trying to move away from the wealth per level system. What the wealth per level system means is that as a DM, I can't put anything of remote worth in a dungeon, because since wealth directly coorelates to power, the PCs would be a fool to not cart away the magical walls after they slay the dreaded Ice Witch. So, the rule does tow things: 1. It makes magic items that cost less than 15,000 easy and cheap to make, and therefore common. A D&D fighter literally needs magical weaponry in as many materials as he can afford to be effective against the random DR he faces. This rule means that the fighter could possibly have a hireling bladebearer that is holding his +2 cold iron sword, his +2 silver sword, his +1 flaming sword, et cetera. 3. It makes it so that high enough level adventurers have as much gold as they could want. That has several connotations. Allow me to paint a picture: Let's say that you're a guest in an 18th level wizard's mansion on his private demiplane. Every room of his sprawling mansion has permanent Unseen Servant to take care of the housework. Torches with continual light shed warm, pleasant light upon the various curious and trophies that the wizard has aquired over his long adventures. His personal quarters are guarded by two iron golems that are commanded to attack anyone who doesn't give the password. Magic Mouth spells are set in a stand under every curio, relating the tale of how the wizard won it, as well as warning people to not enter his personal quarters. That wizard is a complete idiot under the current rules. Every single GP he didn't spend on combat gear lessens his effectiveness in a group. And since the Wealth per level guidelines are strict in the eyes of many DMs, most DM's wont give him more gold if he spent it all on cool stuff for his crib. So now, a sufficiently high level character probably has enough gold to afford nearly any creature comfort he wants. But that leads to powerful magic items. Let's say the same 18th level wizard made a fine, +5 keen flaming longsword thoe old fashioned way, but crafting it. Would he sell it? Why? He has all the gold he wants, why would he let his masterpiece be parted from him by mere gold. Under this system, no one trades 15,001+ gp items for mere money. You pry it out of their cold, dead hands. People who have high level magic items make so much money that more money is mostly irrelevant to them, therefore expensive magic items don't get sold. And plus, buying and selling magic items is kind of dumb when you think about it. To quote Frank and K, a +2 sword is worth your weight in gold. Not its weight, YOUR weight, the gold coins to buy a +2 sword weight 166 pounds. People have noticed that multiclass spellcasters are a bit better in my system. That is actually intended. My world is a world where nearly everyone of any importance has some sort of magical ability. Plus, I feel that if a wizard wants to delay their spell aquisition for +4 AC and some minor abilties, he should be free to do so. (Although I can't imagine anyone taking a level of cleric if they're a warrior, that hits your BaB.) To me, level-dipping is a result of the fact that too many base classes are crappy past level 4 or 5. That is beyond the scope of my house rules to fix. Wow that's harsh. A cleric wants a nightstick because there are a lot of undead, doesn't have any divine feats, nor divine metamagic, and bam! he can't play with you ever again. Ouch. If a cleric wants to turn more undead, there's charisma boosting items, and there's Extra Turning. That should be more than enough to get through 4 encounters per day. Besides, clerics still turned undead for decades before nightsticks were invented. Interesting. How do you change the rules for making money? Simply put, if you have a profession and you get hired, you get a wage. If you have profession: maid, you get a maid job and they pay you a wage, which is different depending on many factors. (The high-class in that caters to wealthy adventurers probably pays their maids more than the slummy hostel that's actually a front for the assassin's guild.) If someone wants to be a really good maid, I suppose I could let them put another rank in profession: supervisor and now they're the head maid. Your wildshape ruling is actually interesting, however your nightstick ruling still allows them to fuel divine feats, which is what I'm trying to nix. (Had a PC cleric last time around using those things to fuels a half-dozen different buffs on himself persistantly.) Simply put, a really good maid shouldn't have +8/+3 BaB for no obvious reason. I'm a bit confused on this one. Are you trying to discourage Paladins of Freedom and Tyranny without outright banning them? Or maybe your campaign focusses on the chaos v law theme? Otherwise I can't imagine too many players (or villains) being thrilled with the idea of smiting chaos/law. There will be a more law/chaos theme in my game for right now, the bad guys are almost all lawful, the good guys are almost all chaotic. Long story. I don't think I like this rule, as it heavily encourages characters to just not wear armor. For example, a suit of +5 full plate grants +13 AC while an unarmored 20th lvl fighter gets +12 AC from this rule. 1 point of AC honestly isn't much of a reason to wear heavy armor. Ah, but what if it was full plate +5 of heavy fortification? Does that influence your opinion? However, that's the general idea, to encourage people to not wear armor. In standard D&D, it is really, really hard to be an unarmored fighter. That means Conan, Dartagnon, He-man, Aragorn, and Legolas automatically lose if they are in D&D. I feel that not wearing armor should be a valid idea in D&D. And I don't remember who asked it, but no, shields don't count as being armored.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-01-07, 03:50 PM	Oh, and I did mean Complete Adventurer when I said complete expert. :P (Edited original post to correct)
Count Arioch the 28th 09-01-07, 03:54 PM	Artificers: You've got to be kidding me on that one? Seriously, what can an artificer do that a wizard couldn't that'd make you want to ban them? What a wizard couldn't do? Have as many persistant buffs as he is willing to pay for Apply every single meta-magic feat he knows to one spell All cheese that all classes can do. And if he's not doing all that, he's underpowered. If you're either raping the game or sucking, no in-between, you don't get to play with everyone else.
Tequila_Sunrise 09-01-07, 04:03 PM	Ah, but what if it was full plate +5 of heavy fortification? Does that influence your opinion? However, that's the general idea, to encourage people to not wear armor. In standard D&D, it is really, really hard to be an unarmored fighter. That means Conan, Dartagnon, He-man, Aragorn, and Legolas automatically lose if they are in D&D. I feel that not wearing armor should be a valid idea in D&D. Yes, +5 heavy fort full plate is appealing, but so is a +5 heavy fort chain shirt. Which wouldn't grant as high an AC on its own, but I can almost gaurantee that at least one player will ask you "If my fighter gets +12 AC unarmored, why does he only get +9 AC in a chain shirt?" There are of course ways to rationalize this situation, but it is at least somewhat counter-intuitive and you may find yourself in muddy waters with your players.
Kemev 09-01-07, 08:38 PM	Having run a campaign with armor bonuses, there are some things I struggled with that you need to consider more thoroughly. 1. Does the defense bonus apply when characters are flat-footed? Saying "yes" seems counter-intuitive. But saying "no" can devastate players in a surprise round. 2. Does the defense bonus apply when characters are not flat-footed but otherwise denied their dex bonus (perhaps they have been feinted, or are climbing)? See above. More importantly to consider though, is how uncanny and imp. uncanny dodge will interact with the defense bonus if you decide "no" to these two. 3. Does it apply to touch AC? You've already decided yes, but remember, the players that use touch spells/attacks most often are the ones with the worst attack bonuses. This also goes for enemies that depend on touch attacks. 4. Does it apply to characters who are not in their natural form? Will it be reasonable in your campaign for a druid or player affected by alter-self or whatever to maintain their usual defense bonus? 5. Will you adjust character wealth, considering that many PCs will have large chunks of money free, since they don't have to invest in armor? 6. How will non-humanoids benefit from a defense rating? Unearthed Arcana has some suggestions for figuring defenses for monsters, but I didn't find it all that satisfying. For example, a mount can wear heavy armor barding without penalty, but doesn't receive a special defense bonus. Dragons and other sentient monsters (especially enemy NPCs are also problematic, since they could potentially take armor proficiences, and use their relatively high HD to rack up an enormous defense bonus that their wealth by level usually prohibits. I don't mean to pick at you or anything. It's just that there're more issues to the defense bonus idea than usually get discussed.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-01-07, 09:00 PM	Kemev, that's an excellent post, I must say. Having run a campaign with armor bonuses, there are some things I struggled with that you need to consider more thoroughly. 1. Does the defense bonus apply when characters are flat-footed? I'm going to rule that yes, they apply. 2. Does the defense bonus apply when characters are not flat-footed but otherwise denied their dex bonus (perhaps they have been feinted, or are climbing)? I'm going to rule Yes, they apply. However, I will rule that you don't retain the armor bonus if you are immobilized, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to defend yourself. 4. Does it apply to characters who are not in their natural form? Hmmm..... Harder question. I'm going to rule that if you are in a form that's the same type as your original form, it applies. For example, a human bard who changes into a hobgoblin would retain his defense bonus. A druid would not retain her defense bonus if she changes into a bear. 5. Will you adjust character wealth, considering that many PCs will have large chunks of money free, since they don't have to invest in armor? I'm throwing wealth by level out the window and instituting the Wish economy. So yes, but probably not the way you were thinking. 6. How will non-humanoids benefit from a defense rating? If the non-humanoid has levels in a PC class, then I go by the class. If not, I use the rules in UA. +4 if the form is proficient in heavy, +2 if it's proficient in medium, +1 if it's proficient in light. The mount that is proficient in heavy barding would have an unarmored bonus of +4. I will also use that rule for NPC classes as well.
eamon 09-01-07, 11:04 PM	I think the defense bonus you're instituting is a bad idea. - It opens an unbelievable number of easily abusable options - Does it stack with bracers of armor? - It strongly discourages wearing anything other than heavy armor. Nobody in their right mind would wear armor. Except perhaps wild armor, because apparently a druid can't benefit while in wild shape. The real problem is that you're removing character options. Normally, choosing which armor you want to wear is a balance between a number of factors, such as mobility, maximum dex modifier to AC, money, and ability. With this modification, you can be sure there's simply no point to wearing armor; worse yet, you're liable to be armored worse when you wearing armor: normal armor doesn't apply to touch attacks! I think it's too much of a hit or miss thing as is: the defense bonus as you're writing it is too much. Further, by making level dipping even more attractive that it already is, you're exacerbating the problem even more. Perhaps you could reduce the problem by another means: grant all players a defense bonus (which stacks with everything else) based on the difference between the armor they're trained in, and the armor they're wearing: I.e. if you can wear heavy and are wearing none, +3 AC, if you can wear medium but are wearing light, +1, etc. Further, let armor grant damage reduction (which stacks with all other DR) in addition to AC: heavy armor DR 3/-, medium 2/-, light: 1/-. In any case, give the armor wearing populace something in return for the low touch AC's, low movement rates, and general hassles... it'll result in more interesting choices! Have you worked out a number of alternative somewhat optimal examples, to make sure your rules are doing what you want them to? I like the limitation of spells for druids + clerics! It makes em less generic and more interesting while also making two very powerful classes perhaps slightly less powerful. Since your rules are likely to improve level dipping, have you considered rejigging multiclassing saving throws? I'm asking because you might want to avoid a Fighter(4)Monk(4)Ranger(4) etc. from achieving obscene saving throws in his good saves and abysmal throws in his bad saves.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-02-07, 12:39 AM	I think the defense bonus you're instituting is a bad idea. - It opens an unbelievable number of easily abusable options - Does it stack with bracers of armor? - It strongly discourages wearing anything other than heavy armor. Nobody in their right mind would wear armor. Except perhaps wild armor, because apparently a druid can't benefit while in wild shape. Since it's an armor bonus, it would not stack with bracers of armor. Perhaps it's too good for heavy and light armor users, since it's only 1 point more than +5 full plate. The medium armor max bonus is +10, and mythril full plate +5 is +13. The light armor bonus max is +9, and a mythril breastplate +5 is +10. Unarmored is +8 and bracers of armor is +8. And you have to understand, I don't consider delaying your spellcasting prgression by 1 level to gain +4 AC to be abuse. Perhaps you could reduce the problem by another means: grant all players a defense bonus (which stacks with everything else) based on the difference between the armor they're trained in, and the armor they're wearing: I.e. if you can wear heavy and are wearing none, +3 AC, if you can wear medium but are wearing light, +1, etc. Further, let armor grant damage reduction (which stacks with all other DR) in addition to AC: heavy armor DR 3/-, medium 2/-, light: 1/-. In any case, give the armor wearing populace something in return for the low touch AC's, low movement rates, and general hassles... it'll result in more interesting choices! I'm going to be honest, I hate the defense bonus you presented. It doesn't make unarmored characters viable, which is what I'm trying to do. However, giving armor a small amount of damage reduction might make wearing armor more attractive as an option. Since your rules are likely to improve level dipping, have you considered rejigging multiclassing saving throws? I'm asking because you might want to avoid a Fighter(4)Monk(4)Ranger(4) etc. from achieving obscene saving throws in his good saves and abysmal throws in his bad saves. Huh, that is something to take into account. Perhaps I can institute fractional saving throw progression to prevent that. (I've abused that myself, I one time played a warforged fighter/monk/paladin/pious templer. Saves in the mid-teens, plus evasion and mettle. Couldn't actually fight that well, but it was hard to bring me down with magic.)
PhaedrusXY 09-02-07, 01:37 AM	Ah, so the defense bonus is an armor bonus. I think it is fine as-is, then. If it were untyped or something weird like that, it would be too much. But as you explained it, I think it is fine. Limiting the cleric and druid to 1 spell per level from outside the PHB won't really reign them in much. However, combined with the other rules (no nightsticks, no natural spell), they might be ok. I think I like Witch's modification to Natural Spell better than just banning it. I would also let it work for Polymorphed wizards and the like, also, though.
deathbane 09-02-07, 06:23 AM	Since it's an armor bonus, it would not stack with bracers of armor. Perhaps it's too good for heavy and light armor users, since it's only 1 point more than +5 full plate. The medium armor max bonus is +10, and mythril full plate +5 is +13. The light armor bonus max is +9, and a mythril breastplate +5 is +10. Unarmored is +8 and bracers of armor is +8. And you have to understand, I don't consider delaying your spellcasting prgression by 1 level to gain +4 AC to be abuse. I'm going to be honest, I hate the defense bonus you presented. It doesn't make unarmored characters viable, which is what I'm trying to do. However, giving armor a small amount of damage reduction might make wearing armor more attractive as an option. Huh, that is something to take into account. Perhaps I can institute fractional saving throw progression to prevent that. (I've abused that myself, I one time played a warforged fighter/monk/paladin/pious templer. Saves in the mid-teens, plus evasion and mettle. Couldn't actually fight that well, but it was hard to bring me down with magic.) If you are banning stuff then you must have powergamers, and these rules will not work in your favor. The swordsage(20th level) gets 9ac(from your house rule) +10(that everyone starts with)+4(from at least 18 dex)+4(at least 4 wisdom)+6(amulet natural armor)+6(gloves of dex)+6(periphat of wisdom in added to amulet so as to use only one slot)+ring of protection+6 19+4+4+6+6+6+6=51 or 50 for a monk P.S. What is a nightstick
Count Arioch the 28th 09-02-07, 01:47 PM	If you are banning stuff then you must have powergamers, and these rules will not work in your favor. The swordsage(20th level) gets 9ac(from your house rule) +10(that everyone starts with)+4(from at least 18 dex)+4(at least 4 wisdom)+6(amulet natural armor)+6(gloves of dex)+6(periphat of wisdom in added to amulet so as to use only one slot)+ring of protection+6 19+4+4+6+6+6+6=51 or 50 for a monk P.S. What is a nightstick A couple problem with your assessment. First off the periapt of wisdom and golves of dex +6 would only give you +3 AC for each, not +6. So that drops you to 45. Second off, (and you honestly had no way of knowing this so I don't judge you for this), it's hard to get 18 wisdom and 18 dexterity when you are using point buy. Third, I am using Wish ec0nomy. What that means is unless there's a cleric and a druid in the group, one of which having craft wonderous item, crafts the combined amulet of natural armor/periapt of wisdom, they won't find one. Why? Because items that cost more than 15,000 gp aren't for sale. And I would not be likely to have the PCs find said item. So unless the whole party got together and decided to design half the party just around making that specific item, it won't ever occur. Third, amulets of natural armor and rings of protection only go to +5, not +6. So, let's calculate the total AC of said 20th level swordsage with maxe HP. I'm assuming that the swordsage uses the standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), with the highest two in dex and wis, and he uses a maxed out amulet of natural armor because it gives a higher AC bonus. I'm putting all my ability score increases into dex too. So that's 10 + dex (dex of 24 = +7), + wisdom (Wisdom of 14 = +2), ring of protection (+5) + amulet of natural armor (+5) + 20th level armor bonus (+9) 10 + 7 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 9 = 38. Let's see what 20th level monsters attack at: Tarrasque: +57 attack bonus. Only misses on a natural 1. Balor: +33 attack bonus, or +31 if using two weapon fighting. Either misses on a 4 or below, or 7 or below if he's using his whip too. Pit Fiend: +30 attack. Only misses on 7 or less. Old red dragon: +28 attack. Only misses on 9 or less. I'd say that 38 AC is pretty crappy for a 20th level character. If said swordsage multiclassed into fighter, he's get +3 AC, which would increase his chances somewhat, but even then, everything but the red dragon hits him more than half the time. I'm not concerned with the cheese you suggested. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Nightsticks: A nightstick is an item that gives you 4 extra turning attempts. Not really a big deal until you combine with with Divine Metamagic and Persistant Spell. (Had a cleric PC that had three or four persistant buffs running on him. I don't mind when the barbarian is dealing heavy damage in melee, that's what he does. I do have an issue with the cleric competing with him in damage.)
deathbane 09-02-07, 03:26 PM	A couple problem with your assessment. First off the periapt of wisdom and golves of dex +6 would only give you +3 AC for each, not +6. So that drops you to 45. Second off, (and you honestly had no way of knowing this so I don't judge you for this), it's hard to get 18 wisdom and 18 dexterity when you are using point buy. Third, I am using Wish ec0nomy. What that means is unless there's a cleric and a druid in the group, one of which having craft wonderous item, crafts the combined amulet of natural armor/periapt of wisdom, they won't find one. Why? Because items that cost more than 15,000 gp aren't for sale. And I would not be likely to have the PCs find said item. So unless the whole party got together and decided to design half the party just around making that specific item, it won't ever occur. Third, amulets of natural armor and rings of protection only go to +5, not +6. So, let's calculate the total AC of said 20th level swordsage with maxe HP. I'm assuming that the swordsage uses the standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), with the highest two in dex and wis, and he uses a maxed out amulet of natural armor because it gives a higher AC bonus. I'm putting all my ability score increases into dex too. So that's 10 + dex (dex of 24 = +7), + wisdom (Wisdom of 14 = +2), ring of protection (+5) + amulet of natural armor (+5) + 20th level armor bonus (+9) 10 + 7 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 9 = 38. Let's see what 20th level monsters attack at: Tarrasque: +57 attack bonus. Only misses on a natural 1. Balor: +33 attack bonus, or +31 if using two weapon fighting. Either misses on a 4 or below, or 7 or below if he's using his whip too. Pit Fiend: +30 attack. Only misses on 7 or less. Old red dragon: +28 attack. Only misses on 9 or less. I'd say that 38 AC is pretty crappy for a 20th level character. If said swordsage multiclassed into fighter, he's get +3 AC, which would increase his chances somewhat, but even then, everything but the red dragon hits him more than half the time. I'm not concerned with the cheese you suggested. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Nightsticks: A nightstick is an item that gives you 4 extra turning attempts. Not really a big deal until you combine with with Divine Metamagic and Persistant Spell. (Had a cleric PC that had three or four persistant buffs running on him. I don't mind when the barbarian is dealing heavy damage in melee, that's what he does. I do have an issue with the cleric competing with him in damage.) Note to self: don't do math at 6am Even with only 32(?) point buy, 2 18's should be possible, but the money(however you could just hold back on money) not used on AC will go to offense, but I did not know you did not allow custom make items. I figured that they could get some wizard to add things to the item if they paid him, or did some quest for him.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-02-07, 04:51 PM	Oh, I allow custom magic items of the players make them themselves. the players just have to come up with the requisite spells an abilities. (For example, Amulet of Natural Armor requires barkskin. A periapt of Wisdom requires Owl's Wisdom. Although now that I think of it, a druid can cast both of those, so perhaps a druid with Craft Wondrous Item could make such an item...) So, they would need to do a huge favor for a high-level druid for the item. Certainly, the druid in question wouldn't merely sell the item. Hmm, I might add the armor as DR variant rule from Unearthed Arcana to encourage people to wear armor a bit more.
KnH 09-02-07, 05:17 PM	Yeah, I like the idea of armour giving DR, especially at low levels. Until the PCs get +2 or better armour, then they're unlikely to get any benefit at all for wearing armour, and at low levels DR might actually mean something. However, I don't like the Unearthed Arcana variant because it means that when wearing armour, your AC goes down by quite a bit, and I'm not sure whether when wearing armour your AC would be level appropriate. What about just adding the DR to the current armours without reducing the AC bonus? Are you changing the XP cost of Limited Wish? If casting spells normally with Wish doesn't cost any XP, then why should Limited Wish?
deathbane 09-02-07, 06:51 PM	Oh, I allow custom magic items of the players make them themselves. the players just have to come up with the requisite spells an abilities. (For example, Amulet of Natural Armor requires barkskin. A periapt of Wisdom requires Owl's Wisdom. Although now that I think of it, a druid can cast both of those, so perhaps a druid with Craft Wondrous Item could make such an item...) So, they would need to do a huge favor for a high-level druid for the item. Certainly, the druid in question wouldn't merely sell the item. Hmm, I might add the armor as DR variant rule from Unearthed Arcana to encourage people to wear armor a bit more. If you are still going to make not wearing armor give more AC then they probably still wont wear it. I like the idea of AC better than DR, and by the time you get to high levels taking 5 hp off of a monster's damage wont mean that much.
Vaelan 09-03-07, 04:20 AM	There's one problem with justifying the inavailability of expensive magic items via the Wish economy: there are a lot of people who are capable of creating magic items that can't cast Wish. Adepts, Clerics (paging your god for pocket change? :nonono:), Druids, Bards, and Warlocks are capable of creating any number of items that cost more than 15,000 GP, but they can't cast Wish and thus do not have access to unlimited wealth. Even if the people who do have Wish outsourced everything to them for cheap, cheap money, the ratio of Wishers to non-Wishers would have to be suspension-shatteringly high to keep them busy.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-05-07, 03:45 AM	Actually, you can take off Bards and Warlocks from your list. Both of those classes can UMD scrolls of Planar Binding to extort wishes from Efreet. (So can rogues, for the record.) They require a bit more capital investment, but they can wish for gold and buy more scrolls of planar binding.
Sosthenes 09-05-07, 09:20 AM	Even with only 32(?) point buy, 2 18's should be possible, but the money(however you could just hold back on money) not used on AC will go to offense, but I did not know you did not allow custom make items. I figured that they could get some wizard to add things to the item if they paid him, or did some quest for him. "Only" 32 points?
Count Arioch the 28th 09-05-07, 03:55 PM	Alright, after much deliberation, I've decided on a few things: I'm ditching defense bonus. If it was a pirate campaign or a desert campaign or an african campaign, then I would use it. As it stands, it doesn't fit the theme of my game. Keeping the rest. :p
Knightblde 09-05-07, 04:32 PM	I am getting ready to run a city based campaign (Waterdeep) and I also decided to use the Armor rule that you were looking at. Here is how I came to my decision. I wanted the PCs to live in a world where killing the opponent was not the only option. As dangerous as the fantasy worlds that we play in may be, I can't see characters getting away with killing all these people. Even if EVERY case is proven as self defense, the residents will think them troublemakers and ask them to leave. My first idea was to have max hit points for everyone to give them more of a chance to run/surrender. It would be up to me to portray those that are zealous in their cause, much differently than hirelings. Then I came across the UA. I found a rule that I really liked. It is the one where Armor can convert some damage to subdual. A chain shirt (+4 AC) would convert a 6 damage hit into 2 damage, 4 subdual. This way people could knock each other out without having to flub rolls once people go into negs or things like that. Then I started thinking, what about Monks, wizards and other 'cloth' characters? These classes are now screwed. That is when I came across the rule that you were interested in. I thought the bonus to the AC for people without armor made sense. Each rule apart = bad mojo, put them together and you have a winner. For instance, as a fighter 1 do you want +4 (variant rule) to your AC with no ACP, movement restriction or Arcane spell failure, or do you want +4 (Chain Shirt) to your AC with the ACP, ASF and now the added 'conversion' to subdual damage? It makes players choose what they really want without penalizing anyone. I haven't tested it yet, but that is how I see it working. Check out both rules together and see what you think.
eamon 09-05-07, 04:45 PM	Concerning the alternate suggestion for the defense bonus... I'm going to be honest, I hate the defense bonus you presented. It doesn't make unarmored characters viable, which is what I'm trying to do. However, giving armor a small amount of damage reduction might make wearing armor more attractive as an option. Don't get me wrong, I think the idea of making people less dependant on heavy magic isn't a bad one. However, I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. Consider a smart archer build. Such a character is bound to have quite a bit of dex, and at medium to high levels (say 12), is likely to have 22 Dex as a low bound (if he's an Elf and/or places a high stat in dex, much, much earlier), and so he can reach the max dex of even a mithral chain shirt. To him, your changes will mean that instead of a combined dex+armor AC of +10, he'll have a +6Dex, +6 "class armor" for being able to wear heavy armor, +4 "level" bonus for being 12th level - which is +6 more AC. A magical +3 armor might reduce this to +3, but note that this is a low estimate - an elf with maxxed out dex can definitely reach a good deal higher, and every extra AC he takes is going to make the difference bigger. So not only do your changes for this very viable character (no need for help there) improve his AC by at least 3, he's also got a cheaper deal all around (i'm assuming not everyone is walking around with such a fancy armor, but I don't quite understand exactly how many 15k-or-less items commoners will have) Normally, there's a trade-off. Wearing heavy armor means less dependency on Dex to achieve a decent AC, but you move slower (and you have an armor check penalty of... quite a bit), and it costs more money. Movement speed is important, but nevertheless normally people will choose armor over speed since the difference in AC between being heavily armored or not is so large. That's why I suggested a smaller improvement, you don't need (nor want) complete parity, you just want to tilt it a little so you actually have a choice. Who's going to play an armored character with these rules changes? Nobody. Another side-effect is that it helps those that already needed to be unarmored (or lightly armored) to "compensate" for another ability. Barbarians lose something when they're heavily armored, and so do rangers. Archers and rogues don't benefit much from heavy armor, and neither do druids, monks, wizards and sorcerers. So who are you nerfing? The cleric, the Fighter-as-Tank, and the Paladin. I bet nobody will play paladin with these rules ;-), and the cleric isn't actually losing much, since he can simply take a level of monk and go really AC-ballistic. Lot's of non-core material uses armor as a balancing factor, and that's right out, now. I think the idea isn't bad, but I'd reduce the amount, or the impact of dex in other ways, or both - perhaps Init on Int instead of Dex? As is, every dex-based character is getting a huge boost, and others are not.
Vaelan 09-05-07, 04:59 PM	Actually, you can take off Bards and Warlocks from your list. Both of those classes can UMD scrolls of Planar Binding to extort wishes from Efreet. (So can rogues, for the record.) They require a bit more capital investment, but they can wish for gold and buy more scrolls of planar binding. Since when is extorting wishes from a being capable of calling its 30-hitdie daddy to smack you around a good idea? You're talking about wide-scale exploitation of a race of people that is capable of taking revenge and hates being made to serve others. I could see a single really lucky person getting away with it, but if you make it anything resembling standard practice, eventually someone's going to bind the wrong Efreet and push the predominantly Lawful race to act. Also, why would a person capable of making a scroll of Planar Binding sell it for the standard price if using them to bind Efreet were standard practice?
Count Arioch the 28th 09-05-07, 09:26 PM	Since when is extorting wishes from a being capable of calling its 30-hitdie daddy to smack you around a good idea? Point to me where an efreet can do that. Because I am not aware of any summoning ability that efreet possess. If this is, as I suspect, some form of DM asshattery, then let me point out that there's nothing in the rules that say any given human can call the 30th level god-emperor to kill the PCs if they ruin their sorgham harvest. Except for the fact that the 30th level god-emperor and the 30 HD efreet have more important things to do than meddle in the lives of trivial people.
Vaelan 09-05-07, 11:47 PM	Point to me where an efreet can do that. Because I am not aware of any summoning ability that efreet possess. I'm sure you've heard the arguments before. For those of you who haven't... Efreet can, in fact, speak. They know four languages. Efreet can, in fact, be advanced up to 30 hitdice. Efreet are "Always lawful evil." Efreet hate being forced into servitude. It is right there in the Monster Manual. Given that binding them is being given as a widely-known standard practice, chances are their highly lawful society is going to do something about it. If this is, as I suspect, some form of DM asshattery... I like how some people cry foul when perfectly reasonable consequences (I did exaggerate it a bit, though) are presented. Makes me wonder what kind of games they play. ...then let me point out that there's nothing in the rules that say any given human can call the 30th level god-emperor to kill the PCs if they ruin their sorgham harvest. All they have to do is convince the 30th level god-emperor that the PCs need killing. If only they could find some sort of racial hotbutton to motivate the god-emperor... Also, I think you'll find that 30th level god-emperors are a bit more rare than advanced Efreet. Except for the fact that the 30th level god-emperor and the 30 HD efreet have more important things to do than meddle in the lives of trivial people. It seems to me that, while Humans have many resources that other people strive to take from them, Efreet pretty much have one real concern. It isn't like anything else on the Plane of Fire is going to bother them. Also, thanks for responding to my second point. Too busy copying rants from materially different subjects to notice that your qualifications are invalid due to one of the most basic premises of that which you are trying to defend?
Count Arioch the 28th 09-06-07, 11:02 AM	Alright, fine. If it bothers you so much to bind efreet for wishes, let's just say they use scrolls of Greater Shadow Conjuration, mimic Planar Binding, extort wishes from quasi-real shadow efreet that cease to exist when the spells end, and only get 60% the gold that they would have gotten anyway. (Let's see, 25,000 times .6 = 15,000.) The capital has increased, and the yield has decreased, but you still get a hefty profit. There. No fully advanced 30 hit die efreet need get involved now (which I contend are just as rare as 30th level god-emperors, but that's not something either of us can argue using facts, it's all opinion. Also, I contend that they are just as busy as 30th level PCs, probably trying to free the several thousand efreet that the 30th level god emperor has enslaved, but again, that's a matter of opinion, not something either of us could argue as fact.) Edit: But hey, let's go with your concern for a second. Let's say the PCs have gone through the process of binding efreet, harvesting their wishes, then releasing them. The efreeti go to the local padishah, who is a 30 hit dice efreet. Now, the Padishah is enraged that his people are being enslaved so, and he wishes to take action. However, he's got a meeting with the envoy from the court of Mephistopheles that afternoon. Then he's appearing at the opening ceremony for his city's new colliseum. Then he has to meet with the ambassador from the Salamander republic to negotiate a non-aggression treaty so the trade lines to the City of Brass are no longer threatened. So, the Padishah gathers up some of his elite troops, tells them of the situation, and call his mephling court wizard to open a brief portal to the prime to send his troops in. You know what that sounds like to me? An ADVENTURE. "Escape the Padishah's elite assassins, who will stop at nothing to defeat the entrepid band of heroes!" One of the rules about high level adventurers is inevitably, they anger some sort of powerful being. By the time my PCs had hit 15th level, they had 6 different organizations swearing bloody vengeance upon them. That's part and parcel about being powerful, you have equally powerful enemies.
eamon 09-06-07, 04:53 PM	It's your campaign world anyhow, so there's no reason that efreet need match the standard D&D efreet precisely. Even if binding efreeti turns out to be a strategy leading to... uhh... let's call it "natural selection" ;), there might be a bunch of sources of 15k-level magical items. Maybe the problem isn't making them, but the trouble is keeping them (in a largely evil and troubled land, many difficulties may lurk), or the trouble is transporting them. A magical word is a fantasy world, and who's to define the exact amount of magic present? Of course it's good to think about the consequences and to make a consistent world. Good luck with your Campaign!
Count Arioch the 28th 09-07-07, 01:21 PM	While interesting, I think this goes too much towards "Lawful Good is the highest good, Chaotic Evil is the worst evil". I propose to have particular orders or individuals with levels in Paladin of Freedom to pick whether they want Evil or Law as greatest enemy. Similar with Paladins of Tyranny. Actually, now that I've thought for a while, let me expand on that. I don't see Paladins of Freedom as champions of good. I see them as champions of chaos that happen to be good. I don't see paladins of tyranny as champions of evil, I see them as champions of law that happen to be evil. Likewise for paladins of Justice (what I call the standard PHB paladin) and paladins of slaughter. Paladins of justice are champions of good that happen to be lawful, and paladins of slaughter are champions of evil that happen to be chaotic.
Faelar006 09-07-07, 11:33 PM	I'd guess the biggest question I have is what are you going to do when your high level wizard is raking in 100k+ gp per day, while your high level fighter (or barbarian, or ranger, or what have you), is pulling down a paltry 10k or so? The second biggest question I have is what is the point of limiting the druid and cleric's spells known list to all PHB +1 per level, when you are giving your arcane casters the resources to know every spell in every splat book? Not to mention, why would any arcane caster who could cast Wish in your world EVER adventure once they were able to cast Wish? All they would have to do is hire the peon fighters, barbarians and rangers to adventure for them. Faelar
Count Arioch the 28th 09-08-07, 01:03 AM	The second biggest question I have is what is the point of limiting the druid and cleric's spells known list to all PHB +1 per level, when you are giving your arcane casters the resources to know every spell in every splat book? Because arcane casters are limited in their spell slots. When a cleric or druid gets a new spell level, they automatically know every spell on the cleric/druid spell list. A sorceror only has a paltry few, while a wizard most likely will only have 4 spells per level. Not to mention, why would any arcane caster who could cast Wish in your world EVER adventure once they were able to cast Wish? All they would have to do is hire the peon fighters, barbarians and rangers to adventure for them. Faelar Because at high levels, adventure finds YOU. Seriously, a wizard that high level has ticked off a lot of people just by adventuring for that long. He's not going to be able to sit it out somewhere without being attacked on a semi-regular basis.
Faelar006 09-10-07, 11:25 AM	Because arcane casters are limited in their spell slots. When a cleric or druid gets a new spell level, they automatically know every spell on the cleric/druid spell list. A sorceror only has a paltry few, while a wizard most likely will only have 4 spells per level. Because at high levels, adventure finds YOU. Seriously, a wizard that high level has ****** off a lot of people just by adventuring for that long. He's not going to be able to sit it out somewhere without being attacked on a semi-regular basis. Sorcerors will be limited by their spells known, this is true. Wizards, however, with the resources that they will have according to the number of times they are able to cast Wish in a day, will literally have the resources to buy copies of scrolls of every spell in every book. A wizard's spells known is only limited by his spellbook. With those kind of resources, he can copy every spell into his spellbook, and it would probably take him a month or two at most to do so. Meanwhile, your clerics and druids are placed under extreme limitations with the number of spells known. Faelar
eamon 09-10-07, 02:15 PM	Sorcerors will be limited by their spells known, this is true. Wizards, however, with the resources that they will have according to the number of times they are able to cast Wish in a day, will literally have the resources to buy copies of scrolls of every spell in every book. A wizard's spells known is only limited by his spellbook. With those kind of resources, he can copy every spell into his spellbook, and it would probably take him a month or two at most to do so. Meanwhile, your clerics and druids are placed under extreme limitations with the number of spells known. Well, all PHB +1/level isn't exactly an "extreme" limitation. After all, they're still getting everything in the PHB and a bunch more known, which is going to be more than the wizard or sorcerer know, barring odd situations. And for a wizard - well, firstly, it's not said that every wish would successfully grant you a spell - you'd have to know what you're wishing for, and how would a wizard even know to wish for a spell that he's never heard of? And even if you know the spell, why would mere knowledge of it's existence be enough to procure exactly the spell you as player intend? One of the limiting factors of wish is that you need to be precise; it's one thing to wish for a +2 weapon, if you know how to make them, or a scroll of fireball, if you know how to make it, but quite another to wish for something for which you don't know the exact parameters. Spontaneous conversion also means that each spell the druid or cleric learns is subtly more useful than those the wizard does - odd, specific situational spells require the wizard to make a very hard choice in the morning, but the divine casters can choose such a spell even if they're not entirely sure they'll need it; because if it turns out to be useless, they can convert it into something useful...
Count Arioch the 28th 09-10-07, 06:56 PM	Wizards, however, with the resources that they will have according to the number of times they are able to cast Wish in a day, will literally have the resources to buy copies of scrolls of every spell in every book. That's not a problem to me. If you are sucking up the worst hit dice, the worst BaB, the worst armor, the worst saves, the second worst class skill list, and the worst weapon choices, then you deserve to cast any spell you want. That's what wizards do, they're the masters of magic.
Mandarbgrim 09-10-07, 07:17 PM	I am given to understand there is abuse surrounding a wand wielding Artificer, but that is the only decent reason that I can think of to dump them. As a concept I like them a lot. I've toyed with all of those skill changes, except the profession one...and I rather like it a lot. I may steal it. I've also been trying to figure out how to merge Use Rope into something. Survival or Escape Artist is all that comes to mind. Going along with skills, I have been toying with the idea of having partial skills for awhile... Things that cost 1/2 skill point per rank. Several skills seem to warrant it, or it could also be dividing up some of the skills into two distinct types of uses. Such as, putting ranks only in the Feinting use of Bluff or the monster identification of Knowledge<Arcana>.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-01-07, 04:06 PM	I've added some rules to the mix. Add Heroes of Horror and Heroes of Battle to the allowed book list. Archivist and Dread Necromancer give full magic rating. Monks and Paladins can multiclass freely. (I don't know why I didn't include that in the first place, I've played that way since 3E came out!) Monks gain 6 skill points per level instead of 4. Halfling jump bonus increases to +8. That is countered by the -6 penalty to jump due to their speed, which makes it an even +2. Finally, I'm adding to the bannings. If your character is such that you perceive he will not get along with the party, it is assumed that the character is banned.