The Lonely Gestalt - Can I Do It? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Lonely Gestalt - Can I Do It? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Seghan
12-27-06, 11:18 AM I have been reworking a character concept for a major campaign that we will be starting in Eberron. In order express what I want, I think a gestalt (rog/ftr) character would be most useful. The problem is, nobody else wants to play gestalt. I know UA states that all members of the party should be gestalt if one is, and that is a rule that makes a lot of sense to me. Having never played with UA at all, I don't know if it is really important.

Now the environment that I am in is actually supportave. The other players are fine with it, and the DM is encouraging. We play a fairly flexible game, and so we have dealt with power imbalances in the past. I know the other players can deal with it, and I have a lot of faith that the DM will be able to craft adventures that will take the spotlight off of my character when needed, if he gets too powerful. And I have faith in my own ability to roleplay a powerful character subtley, with the specific aim of not overpowering the group. In fact, I want to play him as more of a support character, with a lot of the focus on his skills. And he his a totally mundane character, so it will be easy to keep situations where his gestalty goodness would be of somewhat limited use.
Despite the pros, we are all a little concerned about game balance. The combo does give him some strong benefits, and his is a somewhat high statted character to begin with (4d6 with some good fortune).We think we can do it well, but will it just make the game too difficult to balance and be fun, IYO? Or am I just overthinking this? I really want my character to have both these apects to his devel, though.
jagggar
12-27-06, 01:12 PM IIRC, the general consensous is that a gestalt character is worth about a +2 LA. Since the group is willing to work with you, you could probably waive it for the first few levels and the DM can tack it on a level at a time when he sees fit.
theotherdraxen
12-27-06, 01:35 PM From what I've heard, gestalt balances well by having each level cost 50% more XP (or only receiving 2/3rds the normal xp).

However, you might want to examine your concept. I'll bet there is a build that will achieve the same effect you're looking for without gestalt. So, what's your concept?
Seghan
12-27-06, 01:57 PM Hey Draxon, in answer

yeah, I think straight rouge would work very well, and that has been my original concept for a while. I have a sketch of the concept posted up on the character concepts thread on Eberron General, but briefly he is a vetern of the Karrnathi Army from a family of veterns, but he himself is the prodigal son. Unlike his heroic family, he was not a particularly distinguished soldier, failing out of the academy and serving away from the front lines. On the other hand, the idea is that it was really circumstances that kept him from that, he could be a proficent fighter and adventuring will give him the chance. The rouge (high cha) represents that he is more of a dillitant and a kind of a scoundrel who slides through life on his grace and sketchy skills. However, I have played a similar character recently, and I would really like to add the fighter so that in just a few levels he can maintain the skilled rouge style but develop his story to fufill his family destiny. I don't really want to multi-class, because he should be developing both sides of his personality at once (he was a vetern at level 1, but is starting that level as the rouge character).

So yes, if we decide otherwise, I could just as easily play as a rouge, I just think this would add an interesting flavor and it is something I haven't done before.
theotherdraxen
12-27-06, 02:06 PM Could you provide a link to him/her?

Also, I don't think you need to multi-class (although doing so is generally an optimal choice). Have you seen the Scout from Complete Adventurer?
Seghan
12-27-06, 02:12 PM http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11014651&postcount=112

That is the thumbnail. I have several pages written, as I say in this. I would like to write a decent comprehensive summary to post, the full background is surely too long.
PhaedrusXY
12-27-06, 03:01 PM Why do you need to be gestalt to play a fighter/rogue? Never heard of multiclassing?
theotherdraxen
12-27-06, 03:31 PM Why do you need to be gestalt to play a fighter/rogue? Never heard of multiclassing?

Well, you end up with 5d6 SA and a BAB of 18, as compared to gestalt offering 10d6 and BAB 20. It's powerful, but a good DM *can* handle it.

I'm just trying to lighten Seghans DMs load a little.:)

If you don't need help, and your DM is set on having you run gestalt, then please say so. If you would like help finding a non-gestalt mechanic that represents your concept, I'm more than willing.
Abulafia
12-27-06, 03:56 PM First of all, it's "rogue" -- R-O-G-U-E. Got it? All right.

As for your question: as gestalt combos go, a rogue/fighter is not particularly overpowered. You are a rogue with a high BAB and a lot of combat feats. You will have to deal with M.A.D. (multiple attribute dependency), and contrarian gear selection (i.e., the best gear for fighters -- heavy armor, shields, and heavy weapons -- limit a rogue's abilities, and vice versa). In short, you're not going to outpunch the wizard or the cleric, and if the party's small enough, your dual-role presence might be greatly appreciated.

But while you won't be more powerful than your comrades, you will be substantially less weak: two good saves, high HP, evasion, and uncanny dodge combine to make you somewhat hard to endanger. Your DM will have to think about encounters that are sufficient to put you at risk without overpowering the rest of the party, and going to the charm/compulsion/illusion well too many times will have you back on the boards complaining about your unfair DM.

So does it matter? It totally depends on your DM and fellow players. Game balance is more of an issue for some groups than for others. It sounds like you should be okay, but if you have any doubts, play for a few levels and see how it goes. Remember that spellcasters get progressively stronger relative to non-spellcasters as the game progresses, so a perceived difference in character strength at, say, 4th level will be all but wiped out once the mage can cast Fireball and the cleric can Slay Living.

So my advice to you is threefold:

1) talk to your DM and fellow players about their feelings on game balance and your character concept;

2) start with no LA or other adjustments, play for a while, and see how it goes; and

3) buy a dictionary, and look up "dilettante" and "veteran." ;)
Darth Sephiroth
12-28-06, 03:15 AM One variant I've personally used somewhat merges the two.

Agile Fighter (Variant Fighter)
As Fighter except as noted
Proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons and Light Armor.
Gains Trapfinding and Evasion at 1st level instead of fighter bonus feat.
At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 gain Sneak Attack instead of Bonus Feats
Uncanny Dodge is gained at level 10
Gain the Rogue Skill list
4+ Int skills
Reflex is a good save, Fortitude is not
Special Ability at levels 5 and 15.
Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 20
Seghan
12-29-06, 09:28 AM Thanks for great feedback, everyone. We discussed it, and we think I'll go with the gestalt with no LA at lower levels, for now. Of course, we have a while more of writing up character bios and prepping the campaign world, so if anybody has more 2 cents to throw in I'd still love to hear about it. I also intend to post some in depth character background stuff in the near future, hopefully I'll get some feedback on that.

And thanks also for the spelling. Thanks for the vigilance, I am usually an uber-leet speler, but sometimes we all need to be kept on our toes. :embarrass
Hariman
01-08-07, 03:00 AM One variant I've personally used somewhat merges the two.

Agile Fighter (Variant Fighter)
As Fighter except as noted
Proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons and Light Armor.
Gains Trapfinding and Evasion at 1st level instead of fighter bonus feat.
At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 gain Sneak Attack instead of Bonus Feats
Uncanny Dodge is gained at level 10
Gain the Rogue Skill list
4+ Int skills
Reflex is a good save, Fortitude is not
Special Ability at levels 5 and 15.
Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 20

Evasion at first level? I'd give a die of sneak attack at first level and evasion at second level. Mainly because that gives the usual starting sneak attack/precision damage AND doesn't give evasion out a level early.

As for the gestalt character, I think you'll have to see how it balances with the other party members. The biggest advantage will be you'll hit more often in combat. BUT, depending on your armor selection, you might still be more fragile than the other party members.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seghan 12-27-06, 11:18 AM	I have been reworking a character concept for a major campaign that we will be starting in Eberron. In order express what I want, I think a gestalt (rog/ftr) character would be most useful. The problem is, nobody else wants to play gestalt. I know UA states that all members of the party should be gestalt if one is, and that is a rule that makes a lot of sense to me. Having never played with UA at all, I don't know if it is really important. Now the environment that I am in is actually supportave. The other players are fine with it, and the DM is encouraging. We play a fairly flexible game, and so we have dealt with power imbalances in the past. I know the other players can deal with it, and I have a lot of faith that the DM will be able to craft adventures that will take the spotlight off of my character when needed, if he gets too powerful. And I have faith in my own ability to roleplay a powerful character subtley, with the specific aim of not overpowering the group. In fact, I want to play him as more of a support character, with a lot of the focus on his skills. And he his a totally mundane character, so it will be easy to keep situations where his gestalty goodness would be of somewhat limited use. Despite the pros, we are all a little concerned about game balance. The combo does give him some strong benefits, and his is a somewhat high statted character to begin with (4d6 with some good fortune).We think we can do it well, but will it just make the game too difficult to balance and be fun, IYO? Or am I just overthinking this? I really want my character to have both these apects to his devel, though.
jagggar 12-27-06, 01:12 PM	IIRC, the general consensous is that a gestalt character is worth about a +2 LA. Since the group is willing to work with you, you could probably waive it for the first few levels and the DM can tack it on a level at a time when he sees fit.
theotherdraxen 12-27-06, 01:35 PM	From what I've heard, gestalt balances well by having each level cost 50% more XP (or only receiving 2/3rds the normal xp). However, you might want to examine your concept. I'll bet there is a build that will achieve the same effect you're looking for without gestalt. So, what's your concept?
Seghan 12-27-06, 01:57 PM	Hey Draxon, in answer yeah, I think straight rouge would work very well, and that has been my original concept for a while. I have a sketch of the concept posted up on the character concepts thread on Eberron General, but briefly he is a vetern of the Karrnathi Army from a family of veterns, but he himself is the prodigal son. Unlike his heroic family, he was not a particularly distinguished soldier, failing out of the academy and serving away from the front lines. On the other hand, the idea is that it was really circumstances that kept him from that, he could be a proficent fighter and adventuring will give him the chance. The rouge (high cha) represents that he is more of a dillitant and a kind of a scoundrel who slides through life on his grace and sketchy skills. However, I have played a similar character recently, and I would really like to add the fighter so that in just a few levels he can maintain the skilled rouge style but develop his story to fufill his family destiny. I don't really want to multi-class, because he should be developing both sides of his personality at once (he was a vetern at level 1, but is starting that level as the rouge character). So yes, if we decide otherwise, I could just as easily play as a rouge, I just think this would add an interesting flavor and it is something I haven't done before.
theotherdraxen 12-27-06, 02:06 PM	Could you provide a link to him/her? Also, I don't think you need to multi-class (although doing so is generally an optimal choice). Have you seen the Scout from Complete Adventurer?
Seghan 12-27-06, 02:12 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11014651&postcount=112 That is the thumbnail. I have several pages written, as I say in this. I would like to write a decent comprehensive summary to post, the full background is surely too long.
PhaedrusXY 12-27-06, 03:01 PM	Why do you need to be gestalt to play a fighter/rogue? Never heard of multiclassing?
theotherdraxen 12-27-06, 03:31 PM	Why do you need to be gestalt to play a fighter/rogue? Never heard of multiclassing? Well, you end up with 5d6 SA and a BAB of 18, as compared to gestalt offering 10d6 and BAB 20. It's powerful, but a good DM can handle it. I'm just trying to lighten Seghans DMs load a little.:) If you don't need help, and your DM is set on having you run gestalt, then please say so. If you would like help finding a non-gestalt mechanic that represents your concept, I'm more than willing.
Abulafia 12-27-06, 03:56 PM	First of all, it's "rogue" -- R-O-G-U-E. Got it? All right. As for your question: as gestalt combos go, a rogue/fighter is not particularly overpowered. You are a rogue with a high BAB and a lot of combat feats. You will have to deal with M.A.D. (multiple attribute dependency), and contrarian gear selection (i.e., the best gear for fighters -- heavy armor, shields, and heavy weapons -- limit a rogue's abilities, and vice versa). In short, you're not going to outpunch the wizard or the cleric, and if the party's small enough, your dual-role presence might be greatly appreciated. But while you won't be more powerful than your comrades, you will be substantially less weak: two good saves, high HP, evasion, and uncanny dodge combine to make you somewhat hard to endanger. Your DM will have to think about encounters that are sufficient to put you at risk without overpowering the rest of the party, and going to the charm/compulsion/illusion well too many times will have you back on the boards complaining about your unfair DM. So does it matter? It totally depends on your DM and fellow players. Game balance is more of an issue for some groups than for others. It sounds like you should be okay, but if you have any doubts, play for a few levels and see how it goes. Remember that spellcasters get progressively stronger relative to non-spellcasters as the game progresses, so a perceived difference in character strength at, say, 4th level will be all but wiped out once the mage can cast Fireball and the cleric can Slay Living. So my advice to you is threefold: 1) talk to your DM and fellow players about their feelings on game balance and your character concept; 2) start with no LA or other adjustments, play for a while, and see how it goes; and 3) buy a dictionary, and look up "dilettante" and "veteran." ;)
Darth Sephiroth 12-28-06, 03:15 AM	One variant I've personally used somewhat merges the two. Agile Fighter (Variant Fighter) As Fighter except as noted Proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons and Light Armor. Gains Trapfinding and Evasion at 1st level instead of fighter bonus feat. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 gain Sneak Attack instead of Bonus Feats Uncanny Dodge is gained at level 10 Gain the Rogue Skill list 4+ Int skills Reflex is a good save, Fortitude is not Special Ability at levels 5 and 15. Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 20
Seghan 12-29-06, 09:28 AM	Thanks for great feedback, everyone. We discussed it, and we think I'll go with the gestalt with no LA at lower levels, for now. Of course, we have a while more of writing up character bios and prepping the campaign world, so if anybody has more 2 cents to throw in I'd still love to hear about it. I also intend to post some in depth character background stuff in the near future, hopefully I'll get some feedback on that. And thanks also for the spelling. Thanks for the vigilance, I am usually an uber-leet speler, but sometimes we all need to be kept on our toes. :embarrass
Hariman 01-08-07, 03:00 AM	One variant I've personally used somewhat merges the two. Agile Fighter (Variant Fighter) As Fighter except as noted Proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons and Light Armor. Gains Trapfinding and Evasion at 1st level instead of fighter bonus feat. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 gain Sneak Attack instead of Bonus Feats Uncanny Dodge is gained at level 10 Gain the Rogue Skill list 4+ Int skills Reflex is a good save, Fortitude is not Special Ability at levels 5 and 15. Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 20 Evasion at first level? I'd give a die of sneak attack at first level and evasion at second level. Mainly because that gives the usual starting sneak attack/precision damage AND doesn't give evasion out a level early. As for the gestalt character, I think you'll have to see how it balances with the other party members. The biggest advantage will be you'll hit more often in combat. BUT, depending on your armor selection, you might still be more fragile than the other party members.