The Luck Save [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Luck Save [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
theotherdraxen
09-23-06, 08:53 PM People have been exploring coming up with new uses of Charisma, regarded for a long time as one of the weakest scores. Before checking this out, you might want to see Charisma as Luck (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=707474).

I take a different approach to it than the above link. I have seen that there are many that feel that spells are too powerful. Power Word Kill is a great example. It's 9th level, but the only way to survive it is to a)have more than 100 hp or b) have spell resistance. A character that fails to have either one of these (a very likely thing, even at high levels) will find themselves helpless to this spell, which the wizard can cast every day. Now, some might say "but that's the whole point of high level spells', but I say the whole point of D&D (at least, in 3.x) is checks and balances.

So I would like to propose a Luck Save. It operates just like any other saving throw, and is modified by Charisma. It is used to defend against spells/other effects that don't normally offer a save. After all, when you're facing up against Power Word Kill, and you don't have SR, luck is all you have.

Why charisma, you ask? Charismatic characters are, iconically, lucky. You can also look at it another way: since charisma represents your force of personality, you exude this force of personality to 'bend' the universe slightly in your favor. Or maybe it represents your own ability to motivate yourself beyond normal capacities.

It would also go some distance to help normally inferior classes (like the Bard and the Marshal) catch up with the others. It would also offer some motivation for Swashbucklers to have higher charisma (IMO, they're iconically charismatic). Sorcerers wouldn't recieve the full benefit of their luck, either, as they would have a low luck progression. This keeps then within their power range.

So, that said, any ideas? Comments? Criticisms?
Omega the Powerfull
09-24-06, 11:36 PM Only a comment - this idea seems totally absurd - if charisma is luck, great wirms are the most lucky creatures in the world and they should go to a cassino to get some money instead of killing adventurers.

:rofl:
Millennium
09-25-06, 10:06 AM Personally, I just say that luck is flavor. If you want to say that your character passed a roll because he's lucky rather than because he's skilled, go right ahead. This neatly solves the problem of how to represent a lucky character.
058
09-25-06, 04:47 PM I've seen several threads about Charisma being a generally useless stat, and I like this idea because it changes that. Perhaps an explanation as to how this "luck save" would work is in order? Would a Luck-save be applied to every failed check or incoming attack?

This has started my mental cogs working, and I think that I shall see how it can be used for my next campaign. Perhaps as a once-per-day thing, each character can make a Luck save to avoid or succeed at something--your example, Power Word Kill, or perhaps another example is when attempting to leap across a great chasm--when the player sees that s/he has failed the check and their daily Luck save is unused, s/he can roll again, with a successful roll displaying slightly different results than an original success would--instead of landing deftly, perhaps the adventurer would at first appear to fall but catch him/herself on a nearly invisible jut of rock(think Indiana Jones' final crusade).
Darth Sephiroth
09-25-06, 05:19 PM How about just luck equals your Charisma Modifier, reroll a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier, negative means that many natural 20's don't trigger.
theotherdraxen
09-25-06, 07:12 PM The Luck Save works and progresses like any other save. It applies whenever a spell/effect normally lists Saving Throw: None. In these cases, it's is assumed that only luck can save you. That's my vision, anyway. I hadn't intended any other uses for it. Again, I am also all for the other Cha=luck ideas, I'm just proposing one more.

Another reason is that I find that 'luck as flavor' is often difficult to pull off, especially if you are not so lucky yourself.
Soel Griffin
09-29-06, 03:56 AM But, if you make Charisma useful, then what'll do use for a dump stat????:P

Seriously, I had a similar idea in my campaign (was going to take place in a fantasy version of ancient India, but didn't end up going with that plan,) for the humans to have an extra rolled ability score for Karma.

The modifier was to be used in a vague similarity to action points (ex- 15 Karma givs a +2 modifier, so the pc could either use the +2 once a day on a attack, damage, save or skill roll, or use a +1 bonus two different times that day to any of the above rolls.)

Maybe something along these lines could help/inspire you?
Halcyonn
09-29-06, 02:05 PM I loved this idea of a luck save, so I used a lot of the ideas here and made a list for my Dragonlance campaign:

-Luck saves - do not progress like other saves, but gain cha mod to save (plus other mods like luck bonus to saves or from a cloak of resistance). In addition, rogues, bards, swashbucklers, and mariners gain a +1 mod to luck save. Kender (halflings) and Gully Dwarves gain a +1 mod to luck save as well. Luck saves would be used for things that normally don't allow for a save (like Power Word Kill) and Magic Missile).

-Confirming Criticals - Players must add charisma mod when rolling to confirm a critical (positive or negative mod). Criticals to me seem lucky, thus it made sense to add this. This would stack with feats and abilities that add to confirming crits.

-Critical Failure - Players add charisma mod instead of dex mod when confirming a critical failure.

-Luck Points - Players gain a number of points per level equal 1+ cha mod. Players regen 1 point a day to a max of 1+ cha mod. Players can spend these luck points (only 1 per die roll) to add 1d6 to any d20 roll (to hit, saves, skills).

What do you think? Is this too much?
Thelon Fairblade
09-29-06, 02:06 PM Per my response in the other CHA thread:

IMC, your charisma mod is applied to your result from using Action Points to modify d20 rolls. 16 CHA: 1d6+3; 7 CHA: 1d6-2. It makes a difference, but doesn't impact the basic game rules, balance, or concept.
theotherdraxen
09-29-06, 05:26 PM I loved this idea of a luck save, so I used a lot of the ideas here and made a list for my Dragonlance campaign:

-Luck saves - do not progress like other saves, but gain cha mod to save (plus other mods like luck bonus to saves or from a cloak of resistance). In addition, rogues, bards, swashbucklers, and mariners gain a +1 mod to luck save. Kender (halflings) and Gully Dwarves gain a +1 mod to luck save as well. Luck saves would be used for things that normally don't allow for a save (like Power Word Kill) and Magic Missile).
I like the other ideas, but I don't understand this one. Do people just have a flat bonus?
Halcyonn
09-29-06, 06:27 PM I like the other ideas, but I don't understand this one. Do people just have a flat bonus?

Yes, that is what I was thinking. So for a level 18 warrior, your saves might be +18/+7/+6 with a -2 luck save. Warriors don't rely much on charisma and luck, so that Power Word Kill is going to kill them (if they have less than 100 hps). However, the level 18 kender bard might have +8/+18/+16 for saves with a +9 luck save (+1 for bard, +1 for kender, and +7 for charisma). The bard has a pretty good chance to resist the sure death of Power Word Kill.

My reasoning for saying that luck saves shouldn't progress with the others because you don't want to nerf spells like Magic Missile and Power Word Kill. There's a reason they were designed without a save built in, but the luck save gives the more charismatic and lucky few a chance to resist. This also gives the player more of a reason to have a higher charisma.
theotherdraxen
09-30-06, 12:06 PM But a wizard gets powerword kill at 18th level. By that level, the wizard will have a save DC (assuming a 20 int) of 24 (10+9 spell level +5 int). That means that the kender will only have a 25% chance of saving. Odds are, the wizard will have a higher intelligence than that, so the rogue will hardly succeed at all.

But you're right about nerfing the spells. Maybe people like bards should have a low progression, and everyone else none at all?
Halcyonn
09-30-06, 01:20 PM You are right that the kender would have a small chance to save against the spell, but at least he gets a chance to resist an otherwise unresistable spell. This kind of makes sense too. Since the save doesn't progress (except for increases in charisma), then lower level characters are going to seem more lucky (when saving against low level spells like Magic Missile) while higher level characters won't (like saving against Power Word Kill). It makes sense to me that lowbies are luckier than veterans who are more skillful.

Thinking of it this way though, does the luck save have any merit? I like it, but is it useful?
Halcyonn
10-01-06, 02:06 PM I played this new set of rules in my game last night and everything worked well except the luck save. Even with the non-progressed luck save, the juvenile dragon resisted magic missile everytime. A total nerf of the spell, something I wanted to avoid. So after the fourth resist, I told my players to screw it took away the rule.

I like the luck save, but it needs to be used for something else I think. Maybe just death effect spells? Any other applications?
True Cavalier
10-01-06, 02:54 PM Maybe just for crazy stunts, perhaps in conjuction with action points?
theotherdraxen
10-01-06, 03:00 PM Thankyou for testing it, Halcyonn. It's broken. Others may continue debating here if they wish, but the idea of a luck save, I'm afraid, can't work without nerfing out spells. :weep:
Cifer
10-01-06, 08:21 PM I've got to admit I don't like the idea. The base behind a Save: None spell is that you can use it to get to those pesky guys with maximum saves. One of them is the paladin - and guess what one of his favorite stats is.
Don't like Powerword:Kill? Protect yourself against it. Spell resistance is pretty hard to get, but what about a death ward? It's a fourth level spell that completely negates a ninth level one (and most other save-or-die spells - and undead - and a good part of evil clerics - and I don't want to talk about necromancers...). Make sure it's not dispelled and you're pretty save. If you don't like it, what about Mind Blank? The power word is mind-affecting, after all. I would also propose Silence - ever heard of a non-epic mage that can pull of a silent PW:Kill (Sudden silent spell excluded)? He might go for a quickened silent Dispel so he can get in the PW in the same round, but that takes up another one of his valuable ninth-level slots - otherwise, he wastes fourth-level spells (silent dispel) against your cheap second level silence which you can renew every round. Want to bet who prepared more of them?

As long as you more or less know what you are up against (a high-level caster) there are lots of strategies to counter him. Since near-epic casters usually are not used as random encounters, chances are the PCs can learn about him and prepare for him. No need for a deus-ex-machina save.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
theotherdraxen 09-23-06, 08:53 PM	People have been exploring coming up with new uses of Charisma, regarded for a long time as one of the weakest scores. Before checking this out, you might want to see Charisma as Luck (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=707474). I take a different approach to it than the above link. I have seen that there are many that feel that spells are too powerful. Power Word Kill is a great example. It's 9th level, but the only way to survive it is to a)have more than 100 hp or b) have spell resistance. A character that fails to have either one of these (a very likely thing, even at high levels) will find themselves helpless to this spell, which the wizard can cast every day. Now, some might say "but that's the whole point of high level spells', but I say the whole point of D&D (at least, in 3.x) is checks and balances. So I would like to propose a Luck Save. It operates just like any other saving throw, and is modified by Charisma. It is used to defend against spells/other effects that don't normally offer a save. After all, when you're facing up against Power Word Kill, and you don't have SR, luck is all you have. Why charisma, you ask? Charismatic characters are, iconically, lucky. You can also look at it another way: since charisma represents your force of personality, you exude this force of personality to 'bend' the universe slightly in your favor. Or maybe it represents your own ability to motivate yourself beyond normal capacities. It would also go some distance to help normally inferior classes (like the Bard and the Marshal) catch up with the others. It would also offer some motivation for Swashbucklers to have higher charisma (IMO, they're iconically charismatic). Sorcerers wouldn't recieve the full benefit of their luck, either, as they would have a low luck progression. This keeps then within their power range. So, that said, any ideas? Comments? Criticisms?
Omega the Powerfull 09-24-06, 11:36 PM	Only a comment - this idea seems totally absurd - if charisma is luck, great wirms are the most lucky creatures in the world and they should go to a cassino to get some money instead of killing adventurers. :rofl:
Millennium 09-25-06, 10:06 AM	Personally, I just say that luck is flavor. If you want to say that your character passed a roll because he's lucky rather than because he's skilled, go right ahead. This neatly solves the problem of how to represent a lucky character.
058 09-25-06, 04:47 PM	I've seen several threads about Charisma being a generally useless stat, and I like this idea because it changes that. Perhaps an explanation as to how this "luck save" would work is in order? Would a Luck-save be applied to every failed check or incoming attack? This has started my mental cogs working, and I think that I shall see how it can be used for my next campaign. Perhaps as a once-per-day thing, each character can make a Luck save to avoid or succeed at something--your example, Power Word Kill, or perhaps another example is when attempting to leap across a great chasm--when the player sees that s/he has failed the check and their daily Luck save is unused, s/he can roll again, with a successful roll displaying slightly different results than an original success would--instead of landing deftly, perhaps the adventurer would at first appear to fall but catch him/herself on a nearly invisible jut of rock(think Indiana Jones' final crusade).
Darth Sephiroth 09-25-06, 05:19 PM	How about just luck equals your Charisma Modifier, reroll a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier, negative means that many natural 20's don't trigger.
theotherdraxen 09-25-06, 07:12 PM	The Luck Save works and progresses like any other save. It applies whenever a spell/effect normally lists Saving Throw: None. In these cases, it's is assumed that only luck can save you. That's my vision, anyway. I hadn't intended any other uses for it. Again, I am also all for the other Cha=luck ideas, I'm just proposing one more. Another reason is that I find that 'luck as flavor' is often difficult to pull off, especially if you are not so lucky yourself.
Soel Griffin 09-29-06, 03:56 AM	But, if you make Charisma useful, then what'll do use for a dump stat????:P Seriously, I had a similar idea in my campaign (was going to take place in a fantasy version of ancient India, but didn't end up going with that plan,) for the humans to have an extra rolled ability score for Karma. The modifier was to be used in a vague similarity to action points (ex- 15 Karma givs a +2 modifier, so the pc could either use the +2 once a day on a attack, damage, save or skill roll, or use a +1 bonus two different times that day to any of the above rolls.) Maybe something along these lines could help/inspire you?
Halcyonn 09-29-06, 02:05 PM	I loved this idea of a luck save, so I used a lot of the ideas here and made a list for my Dragonlance campaign: -Luck saves - do not progress like other saves, but gain cha mod to save (plus other mods like luck bonus to saves or from a cloak of resistance). In addition, rogues, bards, swashbucklers, and mariners gain a +1 mod to luck save. Kender (halflings) and Gully Dwarves gain a +1 mod to luck save as well. Luck saves would be used for things that normally don't allow for a save (like Power Word Kill) and Magic Missile). -Confirming Criticals - Players must add charisma mod when rolling to confirm a critical (positive or negative mod). Criticals to me seem lucky, thus it made sense to add this. This would stack with feats and abilities that add to confirming crits. -Critical Failure - Players add charisma mod instead of dex mod when confirming a critical failure. -Luck Points - Players gain a number of points per level equal 1+ cha mod. Players regen 1 point a day to a max of 1+ cha mod. Players can spend these luck points (only 1 per die roll) to add 1d6 to any d20 roll (to hit, saves, skills). What do you think? Is this too much?
Thelon Fairblade 09-29-06, 02:06 PM	Per my response in the other CHA thread: IMC, your charisma mod is applied to your result from using Action Points to modify d20 rolls. 16 CHA: 1d6+3; 7 CHA: 1d6-2. It makes a difference, but doesn't impact the basic game rules, balance, or concept.
theotherdraxen 09-29-06, 05:26 PM	I loved this idea of a luck save, so I used a lot of the ideas here and made a list for my Dragonlance campaign: -Luck saves - do not progress like other saves, but gain cha mod to save (plus other mods like luck bonus to saves or from a cloak of resistance). In addition, rogues, bards, swashbucklers, and mariners gain a +1 mod to luck save. Kender (halflings) and Gully Dwarves gain a +1 mod to luck save as well. Luck saves would be used for things that normally don't allow for a save (like Power Word Kill) and Magic Missile). I like the other ideas, but I don't understand this one. Do people just have a flat bonus?
Halcyonn 09-29-06, 06:27 PM	I like the other ideas, but I don't understand this one. Do people just have a flat bonus? Yes, that is what I was thinking. So for a level 18 warrior, your saves might be +18/+7/+6 with a -2 luck save. Warriors don't rely much on charisma and luck, so that Power Word Kill is going to kill them (if they have less than 100 hps). However, the level 18 kender bard might have +8/+18/+16 for saves with a +9 luck save (+1 for bard, +1 for kender, and +7 for charisma). The bard has a pretty good chance to resist the sure death of Power Word Kill. My reasoning for saying that luck saves shouldn't progress with the others because you don't want to nerf spells like Magic Missile and Power Word Kill. There's a reason they were designed without a save built in, but the luck save gives the more charismatic and lucky few a chance to resist. This also gives the player more of a reason to have a higher charisma.
theotherdraxen 09-30-06, 12:06 PM	But a wizard gets powerword kill at 18th level. By that level, the wizard will have a save DC (assuming a 20 int) of 24 (10+9 spell level +5 int). That means that the kender will only have a 25% chance of saving. Odds are, the wizard will have a higher intelligence than that, so the rogue will hardly succeed at all. But you're right about nerfing the spells. Maybe people like bards should have a low progression, and everyone else none at all?
Halcyonn 09-30-06, 01:20 PM	You are right that the kender would have a small chance to save against the spell, but at least he gets a chance to resist an otherwise unresistable spell. This kind of makes sense too. Since the save doesn't progress (except for increases in charisma), then lower level characters are going to seem more lucky (when saving against low level spells like Magic Missile) while higher level characters won't (like saving against Power Word Kill). It makes sense to me that lowbies are luckier than veterans who are more skillful. Thinking of it this way though, does the luck save have any merit? I like it, but is it useful?
Halcyonn 10-01-06, 02:06 PM	I played this new set of rules in my game last night and everything worked well except the luck save. Even with the non-progressed luck save, the juvenile dragon resisted magic missile everytime. A total nerf of the spell, something I wanted to avoid. So after the fourth resist, I told my players to screw it took away the rule. I like the luck save, but it needs to be used for something else I think. Maybe just death effect spells? Any other applications?
True Cavalier 10-01-06, 02:54 PM	Maybe just for crazy stunts, perhaps in conjuction with action points?
theotherdraxen 10-01-06, 03:00 PM	Thankyou for testing it, Halcyonn. It's broken. Others may continue debating here if they wish, but the idea of a luck save, I'm afraid, can't work without nerfing out spells. :weep:
Cifer 10-01-06, 08:21 PM	I've got to admit I don't like the idea. The base behind a Save: None spell is that you can use it to get to those pesky guys with maximum saves. One of them is the paladin - and guess what one of his favorite stats is. Don't like Powerword:Kill? Protect yourself against it. Spell resistance is pretty hard to get, but what about a death ward? It's a fourth level spell that completely negates a ninth level one (and most other save-or-die spells - and undead - and a good part of evil clerics - and I don't want to talk about necromancers...). Make sure it's not dispelled and you're pretty save. If you don't like it, what about Mind Blank? The power word is mind-affecting, after all. I would also propose Silence - ever heard of a non-epic mage that can pull of a silent PW:Kill (Sudden silent spell excluded)? He might go for a quickened silent Dispel so he can get in the PW in the same round, but that takes up another one of his valuable ninth-level slots - otherwise, he wastes fourth-level spells (silent dispel) against your cheap second level silence which you can renew every round. Want to bet who prepared more of them? As long as you more or less know what you are up against (a high-level caster) there are lots of strategies to counter him. Since near-epic casters usually are not used as random encounters, chances are the PCs can learn about him and prepare for him. No need for a deus-ex-machina save.