Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lady Maedhros 04-22-06, 01:43 PM	A while ago, there was an idea kicking around the boards that if you were going to add a seventh stat, it should be Luck. Luck rolls could then be used to determine stuff the DM would ordinarily just have to decide - like, "I'm jumping off a roof, is there a cloth overhang to break my fall? A water trough to splash into? A manure cart? Or just painful, painful cobblestones?" Or while fleeing from a T-rex through the jungle - a good luck roll indicates you find a cave to hide out in, a very bad luck roll and you run right into the raptor nest. I really like this idea, and i'm looking for ways to make it appealing to my players and make sure it sees regular use in play. Perhaps let them 'spend' their luck each day, trading two points of luck for a +1 luck bonus to a d20? Of course if they start with 8 Luck and spend 6 and then have to jump off a roof later, they're in trouble. Instinctively, that sounds both cool and simple to me, but does it seem too strong? To difficult? What would you do?
JMD999 04-22-06, 02:20 PM	the idea is very elderscrolls-esque (which is a good thing), but there are too many feats that grant luck bonuses out there to make this new attribute anything seriously cool.
Oneiros 04-22-06, 02:44 PM	Monte Cook's Book of Roguish Luck (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_BORL) contains just such a stat and related mechanics.
Mandarbgrim 04-22-06, 03:36 PM	I would apply the bonus or penalty to action point rolls if you are doing those. There doesn't seem to be enough uses for such an ability score compared to the others.
Bobfred21 04-22-06, 05:15 PM	Frankly, if I were making a luck stat, I'd implement action points and make the stat have to do with them. Maybe subtract two from the number of action points each character gets at level up, and have them add their luck bonus to the number?
Neo-Sapian 04-22-06, 05:29 PM	What if you have multiple players rolling a luck save? The whole party is running from the T-rex and one member finds a cave while another runs into a raptors' nest. The luck stat sounds pretty interesting but could use some more work. I don't think that adding luck bonuses to d20 rolls is necessary. The d20 roll already represents luck (1 unlucky, 20 lucky) since it's a random number generator. I'm not familiar with luck bonuses but they seem pretty munchkiney to me. DM: What's your attack modifier? Player: str+magic+psionic+incarnate+feat1+...+fe atN+divine+luck+mojo+...=broken
RaspK FOG 04-22-06, 05:55 PM	Luck stats work well for other systems, mostly totally arithmetic or d100s.
Darkxarth 04-23-06, 06:06 PM	I like the idea of a Luck ability score, it adds an element of cool save-your-butt-at-the-last-second-iness. Note: The above is not a real word. I know that. Please don't tell me that. English is my best subject, I just like making things up.
sneak_Blast 04-23-06, 09:33 PM	Try this, I find it works quite well: A Little Bit of Luck A stats variation I use is the inclusion of the Luck attribute. Occasionally, the DM may ask you to make a luck roll. A luck roll is a simple d20 roll plus your Luck modifier. Unlike with other rolls, this roll may not be affected by any spells, abilities, or anything, PERIOD. It is simply based on luckl. What you roll, is what you roll. It's all about luck. Sometimes I use luck to influence the course of a scene. (Who's closest to the materializing demon no one noticed, anyway?) Sometimes, I use it to bail your tail out of the fire when you try to do something really cool but it blows up badly in your face. (Cool stunts are just plain nifty and, sometimes, dumb luck is the only way you can pull them off.) Or sometimes I'll use it to attempt to mitigate the Dire Consequences of a stupid move that wasn't your fault. "Geez, Mikey! Don't you know better than to fire a rocket launcher in a 10' square cave made of cracking, porous rock? The ceiling's caved in and the walls have crumbled. Becca, you're unconscious and you're so far down in hit points you're gonna die permanently—i.e. no resurrection—if you don't make a luck roll." Of course, you don't get luck rolls for being OOCly stupid. (Remember that rocket launcher in the 10'x10' cave? Mikey doesn't get a luck roll to bail his tail out of that.) You might get one, however, if you're being ICly stupid because it's totally in character for your to do so. Usually, that happens only when your character knows full well what he's doing but is compelled to do it anyway all in the name of Doing The Right Thing. Luck likes Heroes. You can request a luck roll, on occasion, if it's really, really, really important your character succeed at something he'd have absolutely no chance of doing otherwise. (That kinda falls into the cool stunt category.) Heck, you can even trade your luck in for success if the situation is desperate enough. You voluntarily give up one point of your permanent luck score, and suffer the potentially adjusted modifier accordingly on all future luck rolls, for an automatic success when you've failed every other possible way. Keep in mind, however, that when you do that, you are permanently lowering your luck score. Your luck attribute, you see, unlike the other six, is a permanently fixed score. It can never, ever be raised—except personally by the DM and entirely at his own discretion. When you earn those extra points every four levels that you can sink into upgrading one of your attribute scores, those points can never be spent on luck. It cannot be raised in anyway what-so-ever. That means enhancement bonuses, inherent bonuses, unnamed, anything. Luck is an intangible something you're simply born with or without. C'est tout. Note, however, that Luck is a fickle thing anyway you look at it. Thus, your ability to call on it depends entirely on the GM's whim, generosity, and discretion. Just so you know. ;) Editting Note: I adapted this from a online forum-based D&D game that I run. May have a few discrepancies (sp?).
RaspK FOG 04-23-06, 11:02 PM	Unearthed Arcana had rules on luck checks too (on a sidebar).
locksley92 04-24-06, 04:44 AM	thats not the same thing as was presented here.
Lady Maedhros 04-24-06, 05:34 PM	sneak_blast has it exactly! That's the feeling i'm interested in. My only concern is the amount of DM fiat it involves... I have a player who strongly suspects me of favoritism (and i'm only human, he's probably right - bad things do tend to happen to him an awful lot :shifty: ). Because of this, i like to be able to present flat-out, this-is-how-it-works rules when i introduce new playstyle. What if you have multiple players rolling a luck save? The whole party is running from the T-rex and one member finds a cave while another runs into a raptors' nest. Good point. Hm. I suppose one could average the group's Luck stat for rolls that affect them all like that, or simply have the group choose the luckiest of them to make group luck rolls, much like they choose the most engaging of them to make Diplomacy rolls or the burliest of them to make Strength checks.
FlameLover 04-24-06, 06:47 PM	I, personally, am completely against a luck "stat". Having luck points you can spend to get bonuses, cause weird coincidences to happen etc. are fine in my books. But using the whole stat system for luck seems a bit crazy to me. Ofcourse your campaign might say that some people are just luckier than others. But surely out of a band of intrepid adventurers they'll all be pretty lucky compared to the general populace? If they're not, they'll have one short adventuring career. If you want luck like a stat, go for it with your game. But be careful to avoid DM fiat or "Luck or Die" situations as a great sense of animosity will no doubt consume the players and ensue.
Entheogenic 04-24-06, 08:11 PM	sneak_blast: I really like that idea. A lot. It sounds like something I'd really enjoy incorporating into my games. Could you provide a bit more information about how you use it? Since the stat is fixed, how is it determined in the first place? Rolled like a regular ability? What about when using point buy? I myself would be inclined to have it be rolled like a normal ability score (4d6 drop the lowest) even when using point buy. Any other mechanical stuff you feel like sharing? Entheogenic
sneak_Blast 04-24-06, 10:42 PM	Lady Maedhros: I know what you mean. Here is my best attempt at determining when someone should make a luck roll: 1. Random event occurs. (i.e. door with loads of monsters is opening to kill the party) Whoever got the worst luck roll would be closest to the door. 2. For the party is running away from the T-Rex, I would take the average roll. Number 1 pretty much sums up everything. Things that would either need crazy planning before hand by the DM (like where every cave is in every mountain) or just things that happen randomly. It is based of the idea that heroes in books, films, you name it always seem to be able to pull through despite the worst odds at times. That is it for now. I'll be on this thread discussing the luck stat, but I would think that you might want to do this in private or talk it over with your players. With the latter option, you would probably end up house ruling it a lot. Entheogenic: In the game I mentioned in the "Editting Note" (see above), I had the players use 32 pt. for all their stats, but 4d6, drop lowest, for the luck stat. Sorry, that has taken up all my creative juices for now.
The_Levitator 04-25-06, 01:50 AM	We don't have luck as a stat, but as an option to experience. I got the idea from playing Prince of Persia. Whenever players do something that earns them ad-hoc awards for things like creative gameplay, good roleplaying, etc., they can choose between taking the EXP or getting a Luck Roll. It's an extra roll that they can use for anything from saves, to hits, to damage, to skills. It kind of simulates turning back the hands a bit and getting a "do over". The rolls are not transferrable between players, and they don't roll over to future sessions. On average my players get about 3 Luck Rolls per session. One of my players never takes the Luck Roll, and I have 1 that ALWAYS takes any Luck Rolls he can get his hands on. The other 2 mix it up. They are just rerolls, and whatever they get, they get. So it doesn't always change things. Although, I do let them use multiple Luck Rolls for the same initial roll if they want. If they are willing to burn multiple Luck Rolls on the same intitial roll, I add 2 to each additional luck roll. The players like this because it gives those precious second chances while still being a game of chance. In a life or death situation where a player has no Luck Rolls, we allow a single sacrifice of 10% of their current EXP. to buy 2 Luck Rolls. This is only offered once per session per player. So far, only 1 player has ever cashed in, and it saved his character. I know it can be risky to post unusual house rules on this forum, but this has worked well for us for 4 years and hasn't been abused by anyone. If anything, I've noticed that my 2 hack-n-slash players are roleplaying more to get those adhoc awards (1 of them is the Luck Roll hoarder I mentioned earlier). If someone doesn't want to add Luck as an actual stat, this might be a decent alternative idea.
RaspK FOG 04-25-06, 02:42 AM	Luck points was in reference to such a mechanic as action points and (Dark Side/) Force points; in fact, I once built a class that was, well, the lucky guy, more or less, a true rogue right out of pulp fiction (not the Pulp Fiction). I think I could rebuild him around the use of action points in case I run a campaign actually using them, like Star Wars... :) The problem with a Luck ability score is that it HAS to do more than just modify the average ability score; otherwise, it's either too much or too little.
Sinaz 05-15-06, 02:29 PM	So, from what I read, the "Luck" stat is a justifier for the DM to fudge the outcome of a situation, or sort of karma-initiative. I have qualms against it being a stat. Mostly because you can't train in luck. You either gots very little, or very much, and of two specific kinds... good or bad. It's closer to an alignment you didn't ask for. With that said, I have a system that you may or may not like, but my players enjoy it just fine. At the start of the game, I roll a die. I note this number as the ubiquitous Grace/Wrath of God points. Because it starts out positive, the points start out as Grace of God points. Basically, when the players need some sort of divine luck, I tap the Grace of God points. Players have very limited control over this. Basically, if they clasp thier dice and beg the ceiling for a natural 20, or in-character pray aloud to some D&D god, or if I set the DC at 31, and then suddenly decide that despite the pisspoor roll of a 3, I'd actually like the player to succeed here - I spend the Grace of God point. Then the uncanny happens. The dragon bites down on the Dwarf's shield, getting it inexplicably jammed within its maw - the rogue, after tumbling into the gaping abyssal pit finds that his ratty cloak has snagged a sharp outcropping only feet from the lip, dangling him just within reach of the fighter. But the coin turns, and when a God has lost patience, he becomes mischievous. If the players tap all thier Grace of God points, they begin to tap into the Wrath of God points. It's the same pool, only now they are going into the negative. With these points, I "help" a needing character by gracing them with enough luck to get out of the frying pan and land bemusingly into the fire. Wrath of God points don't kill the player (and this is important) but instead rescue him so that the situation can get sadistically worse while still giving the player a fighting chance. You have to realize that I've seen enough players get begrudgingly annoyed at natural real bad-luck, that I don't feel I need to inflict anymore in the way of utter failures. I find that they appreciate these dramatic karmic reversals instead as a game element, and both the Wrath and Grace of God dampens the sting of an unforgiving D20. This style of play isn't for everyone. This works for me because I hate to kill off the PCs. Instead, I opt for crippling, maiming, and scarring - which puts the fear of - not death, but - mutilation into them. I find my players forget that I'm counting these God points until these rediculous karmic reversals start happening. At which point they make a personal note to repent and begin to promise that they'll do thier share of holy evincing for the infidels just as soon as they get all this loot and get the heck outta the dungeon. And that's how they replenish the Grace of God points: by appeasing the god and asking for forgiveness. I swear you've never seen such amusing RPing of religious PCs until they've encountered Wrath of God Points. At anyrate, the mechanic is to just reroll the Grace of God points once the players commit to the pennance as part of thier resting and training RPing (however you handle that in your game.) Lately, I've been keeping individual God Points for each player, as I found that some players were essentially offending other players' gods and bogarting the luck - they argued that logically they should bask in the individual glory of thier respective gods. Works for me!
stargate525 05-15-06, 02:42 PM	So, from what I read, the "Luck" stat is a justifier for the DM to fudge the outcome of a situation, or sort of karma-initiative. I have qualms against it being a stat. Mostly because you can't train in luck. You either gots very little, or very much, and of two specific kinds... good or bad. It's closer to an alignment you didn't ask for. With that said, I have a system that you may or may not like, but my players enjoy it just fine. At the start of the game, I roll a die. I note this number as the ubiquitous Grace/Wrath of God points. Because it starts out positive, the points start out as Grace of God points. *snip* Works for me! Very, very cool. I am taking these to use in my game, with your permission.
Sinaz 05-15-06, 02:48 PM	Very, very cool. I am taking these to use in my game, with your permission. I posted it so you could use it. I forgot to mention, though... keep the number of God Points secret. If they ask, always tell them they've got plenty left. Oh yeah... and that "die" that I roll for the God Points is a D6... but I guess its up to you.
stargate525 05-15-06, 04:41 PM	I posted it so you could use it. I forgot to mention, though... keep the number of God Points secret. If they ask, always tell them they've got plenty left. Oh yeah... and that "die" that I roll for the God Points is a D6... but I guess its up to you. excellent... :plotting: :evillaugh
JulesCARV 05-15-06, 06:14 PM	Personally, I think that luck is already so much of a part of D&D (someone with a +0 jump modifier can sometimes jump 20 feet, and sometimes can't even make a five-foot jump) that luck already exists as a big factor for characters -- not on the character sheet, but in the game, owing to the vicissitudes of the d20 system. One idea, though, is to give players a number of mulligans: say, they get four mulligans + luck modifier per day, or something. They can just choose to ignore a bad save, skill check, attack roll, damage roll, or most other types of rolls (exception: hit die rolls when leveling up), and roll again.
Atirakis 05-15-06, 07:34 PM	you tell them that once per day they can replace their luck score mod with any other score for one roll. That way they can have a really good luck score and when the barb needs to make that all important will save he can use his luck instead of his probably poor wisdom. Maybe a feat called Lucky or something will allow for more uses per day, something like a number of times per day = to your luck mod. You know I kinda like that. What do you think?
Rowan_Whispercloak 05-19-06, 02:58 PM	I like the idea of a luck stat. I would have it add to the result of an action point being used or to the number of action point. In a system that doesn't use action points I would say add the Luck mod to confirming Crits, and/ or have it subtract some from miss-chances. Also just for flavor maybe have it add to the reroll ablitity of the Luck domain (example a cleric with the LUCK domain roll as low saving throw and decides to use his domain power for the day so he rolls his d20 adds his save bonus and his Luck score mod) Just some thoughts
Solik 05-19-06, 05:13 PM	We used to use Luck Saves in my game just for this reason. Most luck saves were DC 11, so that with a standard d20 roll, it was 50/50. By default, characters had a +0 bonus to luck saves. They could choose, at every rest, to roll for luck if they wished. This would require a d20 roll and a d4 roll. If the d20 ended up 2-10, then you took the result of the d4 and made it negative. That was their luck penalty for the day. If it was 11-19, then you made the d4 positive, and that was their luck bonus for the day. A roll of 1 forced a -5, and a roll of 20 forced a +5. We added a Lucky feat (+3 to all luck saves) that was available to all characters at level 1, and to bards and rogues at any level. Also, bards, hexblades, and similar fortune-based characters were required to roll for luck each rest (they could not opt to remain at +0). Bards may have been granted a natural +1 as well; I can't remember. We also used luck saves to "confirm" botches; if you rolled a natural 1 on an attack or skill usage, then you had to succeed a DC 11 luck save or botch it. To make botches rare with skillful characters, you received a +1 bonus to your roll for every point above 10 on your attack or skill check; for instance, if you were making an attack with a +14 bonus, then you got a +4 to your luck save on a natural 1 to keep from botching. We also added that botched attacks after the first on full attacks simply resulted in a miss and the inability to attack further (to keep characters from botching more as their level rose). For stuff that affected the whole party, I'd usually either have the leader or the character with the best luck saves make the roll.
Sinaz 05-19-06, 05:20 PM	We used to use Luck Saves in my game just for this reason. Most luck saves were DC 11, so that with a standard d20 roll, it was 50/50. By default, characters had a +0 bonus to luck saves. They could choose, at every rest, to roll for luck if they wished. ... For stuff that affected the whole party, I'd usually either have the leader or the character with the best luck saves make the roll. That's uh... that's actually kind of cool. Mental note!
Starlightpiper 06-03-06, 02:28 AM	you tell them that once per day they can replace their luck score mod with any other score for one roll. That way they can have a really good luck score and when the barb needs to make that all important will save he can use his luck instead of his probably poor wisdom. Maybe a feat called Lucky or something will allow for more uses per day, something like a number of times per day = to your luck mod. You know I kinda like that. What do you think? I've actually just instituted a rule like that (mainly because the characters in my campaign were rolling a surprising number of natural ones, and I didn't want to kill most of them off during the third session of the campaign). I had each of them roll for a new ability score; once per session, they can reroll a d20 and, instead of applying their normal ability score modifier to it, they apply their Luck modifier. I have a few other intended uses for the ability as well. Random treasures come to mind, as well as drastic scenarios. "You're clinging to the edge of the cliff, but you can feel yourself slipping. Make a Luck roll." "Natural twenty!" "Nice job! Fortunately, there's a large stone that looks fairly imbedded in the cliff; it's barely within your grasp..."
Derren S. 06-03-06, 07:25 AM	You don't need a luck stat. You have the dice for that.
Witch 06-03-06, 07:38 AM	And the stat is there to change metagame luck into character luck. Everywhere I have seen you post, you are cynical - look at things from the bright side, please.
Pegasos989 06-03-06, 07:52 AM	I am against luck stat for several reasons. 1) We ALREADY have a luck modfier. D20! You can either botch the attack by rolling 1 or multiply damage by rolling 20. Making a luck stat would be replacing d20 with the modifier. Like instead of rolling d20+BAB+str to hit, you would just take luck+bab+str cause your character has certain amount of luck. Or, that is how I feel about it atleast. 2) It can screw up the DM. Let's admit it, even if DM isn't railroading, there are situations in which the dramatic effect/plot/whatever has no players saying "I rolled 20 on a luck. The jaildoor's lock just happens to be rusty and easily breakable". If, however, you say that the luck can only be rolled when DM sees fit... That goes to the opposite, giving DM even more control. "I totally screwed up. These monsters are too tough! But hey, let's make them roll a luck and I can get them out of this!" I reeeeally don't like either option. 3) It can also screw up the players! Some people said, that it could be rolled, for example, who do monsters attack against!? Hey, that wizard next to me just scored critical, but I'll attack the fighter far away cause he was less lucky! Or "The door opens infront of you, roll luck for who is nearest" "But the rogue always goes infront..." "So, you have a luck stat. it is meant to be rolled." 4) And this luck-save? Seriously, I see no situation in which normal saves couldn't work! "A cave collapses, roll if you are crushed to death" was an example from someone. Hey.... reflex save, anybody...? I don't see a reason or any benefits from this luck stat, as we already have d20 (and d3, d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d100...) for that. But if your players really like them, I guess my opinion doesn't matter. :D Just wanted to give some example of how bad things can go. I did like Sinaz's way tho. Just tell me, would clerics and the like be able to regain these points, when levelling up or something? It seems to me, that the fighter might not be awarded as many as the worshipper of that god but then again, that would bring some balance issues as clerics would be made stronger, and they aren't a very weak class. EDIT: Ah... already figured it out. If the scores are from overall gods, the clerics would **** off as many as they serve, so it all evens out and they get no extra scores. I really might implement this.