The Monk-Druid Gestalt... how does this shake down? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Monk-Druid Gestalt... how does this shake down? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Golbez57
02-18-06, 03:00 PM Since we typically only have four of us together for any one campaign, DM included, my friends and I have been experimenting with the popular gestalt variant as of late.

A friend is planning to run us through the new Red Hand of Doom module in the near future, and we'll be making new 5th level characters for that game.

One concept that's interesting to me is the "preserver of natural law", a LN Monk-Druid gestalt. I'm a bit at a loss on a few things, though.

First off, when Wildshaping, a Druid undergoes a process near-identical to polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm). Now, I'm admittedly not up on the many, MANY updates and tweaks to polymorph. The spell description I have explicitly says that the Extraordinary abilities of the new form are gained... but are the Extraordinary abilities of the "base" form lost in the process? I'm concerned that this might cost me the Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) AC bonus, Flurry of Blows, Evasion, and so on... all of which are Extraordinary (Ex) abilities.

Assuming that Extraordinary abilities are retained in a Wildshaped form, how would Unarmed Damage play off of Wildshaped forms with multiple natural weapons? For instance, say at 8th level I assumed a form that had 1d10 damage for its primary weapon, and only 1d4 damage for secondary weapons. Would that 1d4 attack instead be boosted up to 1d10 by way of 8th level Monk unarmed attack damage?

Thanks for any insights you might be able and willing to offer!

(I'll be cross-posting this at both the "Character Optimization" and "Unearthed Arcana" forums, as it's a toss-up as to which is most appropriate and likely to receive a response. Apologies in advance for forums-clutter!)
RaspK FOG
02-18-06, 03:37 PM Check out the MANY errata that have been published in regard to the effects of abilities similar with polymorph and how they relate with the latter. ;)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome
Kalriem
02-18-06, 04:22 PM No, you wouldn't be able to use wildshape and flurry of blows. Flurry of blows does not work with natural weapons.
Golbez57
02-18-06, 04:36 PM That's one of my hang-ups, I guess: trying to differentiate between natural weapons and unarmed attacks. The fact that they've recently errata'ed Improved Natural Attack to work with Monk's unarmed attacks muddies things.
catfan
02-18-06, 04:53 PM Actually, you can use unarmed strike even while wild shaped, and thus you can flurry with that. Some DMs allow you to use your natural attacks in addition to your unarmed strike routine, others make you choose. According to the Sage, who is 'official' (regardless of whether he's right or not...), a monk/druid wildshaped can use both flurry of blows with his unarmed strike, and use his natural attacks (at -5 penalty), all at once - though you do need to declare a limb as 'in use' for the unarmed strike for the flurry (unless you're an ape or something and are using weapons for hte flurry instead, but that still occupies at least one limb). A dragon with 2 claws, a bite, 2 wings, and a tail slap attack doesn't really have anything left to attack with, so he'd have to sacrifice at least one of those natural attacks to use as an unarmed strike instead to allow flurry.

Do note that you use your unarmed strike damage when using unarmed strike, not the natural weapon damage of the limb (unless you have a gullible DM), though the damage is modified by your size, as normal.

For example, Wild Shaping into a colossal mouse with two claws at 50d6 and a bite at 100d10 damage. You decide you want to get some extra attacks in, so you flurry with a claw - you don't deal 50d6 per attack, you deal your normal unarmed strike damage, upgraded based on the number of size categories you've gone up, as normal for increased weapon size.
Golbez57
02-18-06, 05:35 PM Ah, that makes some sense. Thanks for the clarification. As you mentioned the Sage, catfan, sounds like I'll want to do some digging in recent issues of Dragon. If you happen to revisit this thread and have the issue number handy, that'd be helpful; otherwise, I'll just be leafing through 'em.

Regarding DM gulliability, in all of this, I'm not hoping to create a super-optimized powerhouse character, but would rather like to use the most current rules to work with him and create a workable mechanic for these two class combinations in gestalt rules. Thank you again for helping me get closer to that point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golbez57 02-18-06, 03:00 PM	Since we typically only have four of us together for any one campaign, DM included, my friends and I have been experimenting with the popular gestalt variant as of late. A friend is planning to run us through the new Red Hand of Doom module in the near future, and we'll be making new 5th level characters for that game. One concept that's interesting to me is the "preserver of natural law", a LN Monk-Druid gestalt. I'm a bit at a loss on a few things, though. First off, when Wildshaping, a Druid undergoes a process near-identical to polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm). Now, I'm admittedly not up on the many, MANY updates and tweaks to polymorph. The spell description I have explicitly says that the Extraordinary abilities of the new form are gained... but are the Extraordinary abilities of the "base" form lost in the process? I'm concerned that this might cost me the Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) AC bonus, Flurry of Blows, Evasion, and so on... all of which are Extraordinary (Ex) abilities. Assuming that Extraordinary abilities are retained in a Wildshaped form, how would Unarmed Damage play off of Wildshaped forms with multiple natural weapons? For instance, say at 8th level I assumed a form that had 1d10 damage for its primary weapon, and only 1d4 damage for secondary weapons. Would that 1d4 attack instead be boosted up to 1d10 by way of 8th level Monk unarmed attack damage? Thanks for any insights you might be able and willing to offer! (I'll be cross-posting this at both the "Character Optimization" and "Unearthed Arcana" forums, as it's a toss-up as to which is most appropriate and likely to receive a response. Apologies in advance for forums-clutter!)
RaspK FOG 02-18-06, 03:37 PM	Check out the MANY errata that have been published in regard to the effects of abilities similar with polymorph and how they relate with the latter. ;) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome
Kalriem 02-18-06, 04:22 PM	No, you wouldn't be able to use wildshape and flurry of blows. Flurry of blows does not work with natural weapons.
Golbez57 02-18-06, 04:36 PM	That's one of my hang-ups, I guess: trying to differentiate between natural weapons and unarmed attacks. The fact that they've recently errata'ed Improved Natural Attack to work with Monk's unarmed attacks muddies things.
catfan 02-18-06, 04:53 PM	Actually, you can use unarmed strike even while wild shaped, and thus you can flurry with that. Some DMs allow you to use your natural attacks in addition to your unarmed strike routine, others make you choose. According to the Sage, who is 'official' (regardless of whether he's right or not...), a monk/druid wildshaped can use both flurry of blows with his unarmed strike, and use his natural attacks (at -5 penalty), all at once - though you do need to declare a limb as 'in use' for the unarmed strike for the flurry (unless you're an ape or something and are using weapons for hte flurry instead, but that still occupies at least one limb). A dragon with 2 claws, a bite, 2 wings, and a tail slap attack doesn't really have anything left to attack with, so he'd have to sacrifice at least one of those natural attacks to use as an unarmed strike instead to allow flurry. Do note that you use your unarmed strike damage when using unarmed strike, not the natural weapon damage of the limb (unless you have a gullible DM), though the damage is modified by your size, as normal. For example, Wild Shaping into a colossal mouse with two claws at 50d6 and a bite at 100d10 damage. You decide you want to get some extra attacks in, so you flurry with a claw - you don't deal 50d6 per attack, you deal your normal unarmed strike damage, upgraded based on the number of size categories you've gone up, as normal for increased weapon size.
Golbez57 02-18-06, 05:35 PM	Ah, that makes some sense. Thanks for the clarification. As you mentioned the Sage, catfan, sounds like I'll want to do some digging in recent issues of Dragon. If you happen to revisit this thread and have the issue number handy, that'd be helpful; otherwise, I'll just be leafing through 'em. Regarding DM gulliability, in all of this, I'm not hoping to create a super-optimized powerhouse character, but would rather like to use the most current rules to work with him and create a workable mechanic for these two class combinations in gestalt rules. Thank you again for helping me get closer to that point.