The Priest: Combining the Cleric and the Druid [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Priest: Combining the Cleric and the Druid [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
11-06-05, 03:45 PM Long ago, I started on a quest to mold D&D into what I wanted it to be for my setting. I created a new class (the Knight), removed one and replaced it with another (my Templar replaces the Paladin), and almost entirely changed another (the Monk).

Recently I have begun working with a class calculator that prices everything by comparing abilities to the value of feats. While I did this, I stared to notice that, at least in my setting, it might be possible to combine the Druid and the Cleric.

So I started by altering the domains a bit. Over the last year, I've been improving/altering the domain powers in my effort to add versatility to the Cleric class (this was before I wanted to combine the cleric and the druid). I removed the cleric's ability to turn/rebuke undead, and removed their ability to spontaniously cast cure/inflict spells. In return for turn/rebuke undead, I gave the cleric a spirit companion (think a familiar with a planar template that can only be summoned for 2 hours per day per character level like a paladin's mount; though as a companion it has it's own HD, feats, skills, and abilities). I gave clerics the ability to spontaniously cast their domain spells, and altered many domain powers. Death became Rebuke undead, Sun became Turn undead. Healing became lay on hands, Destruction became harmful touch (cha x level damage/day, with a will save (DC 1/2 HD + Cha mod) for half). The alignment domains became Turn opposite, rebuke same alignment subtype creatures. Animal became rebuke animals, Plant became rebuke plants. I'm still working on some others (will add more uses/day as levels increase to domains like protection and strength).

Then I started to think about combining the Cleric and the Druid. In my setting, there are two kinds of deities: Gods and Demons. Gods are the Lawful deities, and people worship them to recieve blessings. Demons are the Chaotic deities, and people worship them to stop or redirect their wrath. My setting is one which focuses on the conflict between law and chaos, society and nature, and other opposites which seem to be more gray conflicts than the one between good and evil (I still have a heaven, with Angels, and a hell, with Devils, but they play more important roles in planar campaigns).

Because Clerics are the priests of society and Druids are the priests of nature, I could easily tie clerics to the new Priests of Lawful deities, and druids to the new Priests of Chaotic deities. I still need to figure out what I will do about the few neutral deities, what they will represent, and who will serve them.

So, here is the current build for the Priest:

PRIEST, d6 HD, 4 SP
Spells Per Day
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Domains, Spirit Companion 1 - - - - - - - -
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Spirit’s Favor 2 - - - - - - - -
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 2 1 - - - - - - -
4th +3 +1 +1 +4 3 2 - - - - - - -
5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Spiritual Sight 3 2 1 - - - - - -
6th +4 +2 +2 +5 3 3 2 - - - - - -
7th +5 +2 +2 +5 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
8th +6 +2 +2 +6 4 3 3 2 - - - - -
9th +6 +3 +3 +6 4 4 3 2 1 - - - -
10th +7 +3 +3 +7 ? 4 4 3 3 2 - - - -
11th +8 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
12th +9 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - -
13th +9 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
14th +10 +4 +4 +9 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - -
15th +11 +5 +5 +9 Timeless Body 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
16th +12 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 -
17th +12 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +13 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +14 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +15 +6 +6 +12 Divine Infusion 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Spirit Companion: I'll post specifics soon.
Spiritual Sight (Su): The Priest has the ability to see into the spiritual realm of their plane. In my setting, this is the Spirit World on the prime material plane. In standard D&D, this would be the ethereal and shadow planes. The Priest can decern which plane creatures are on when using this sight.
?: I need an ability for here, probably one tied to Divine Infusion so they don't gain everything at once. Perhaps a slightly different progression of abilities would work as well, making abilities every 4 levels instead of every 5.
Timeless Body: As the druid.
Divine Infusion: Character picks up appropriate planar template (Celestial, Fiendish, Anarchic, Axiomatic) based on the nature and origin of their deity.

One last thing: I think I'd get some pretty wierd results if I just combined the Cleric and Druid spell lists. Rather than that, I think it might be appropriate to try to reincorperate the old sphere system. Rather than each domain having a set of domain spells, each domain could grant associations to a certain sphere of priestly magic. Each domain wouldn't have it's own sphere, rather domains would be grouped together along similar themes (elemental, alignment, life/death, ect.). Decisions would have to be made on which spells would be granted to all priests (but that could be determined by noting the overlap).

Thanks for any advice offered. I need help with the spell list and determining how the class's special abilities should be tiered. As a last note, Druid special abilities will be carefully replaced by spells.
Xeviat-DM
11-14-05, 02:30 PM Bump
Vapthorne
11-14-05, 03:53 PM Not bad, thus far.

If you wish to break the Cleric/Druid spell list into spheres in the manner you suggested then first, I would decide how many spheres I want and divide them among the domains. Just real quick, I went with seven and tied three domains into each (well, one of them will have four). Like:

Sphere of Alignment [Domain: Good, Law, Evil, Chaos] ** This is one that has four domains, but each would be slightly different each alignment based spell.

Sphere of Conflict (or Fire) [Domains: Fire, War, Destruction]

Sphere of Fortune (or Water) [Domains: Water, Luck, Healing]

Sphere of Prowess (or Earth) [Domains: Earth, Strength, Animal]

Sphere of Wisdom (or Air) [Domains: Air, Knowledge, Travel]

Sphere of Magic [Domains: Magic, Trickery, Protection]

Sphere of the Life Cycle [Domains: Plant, Death, Sun]

Now just take the spell lists and divide into eight list (one for each sphere and leave a generic one for all priest). You can change the list how you like. But remember when assigning each domain to a sphere, I did my best to not overlap any similar domains. What I mean, let's say this is used with the normal DnD Gods then the domains Sun, Strength, and Healing should not be lumped into one sphere. Otherwise a Pelor Cleric would had been screwed. At least here, he could choose between 4/7 spheres: Life Cycle, Alignment (Good), Prowess, and Fortune.

For the level 10 ability, you can either allow the cleric to choose another domain. Or split the planar-template abilities. At Level 10: Spell Resistance, Darkvision, and treat diety's favored weaponed as an magic weapon. At level 20: Granted Damage Reduction and Resistance.

I do not know if this is what you want.
Xeviat-DM
11-15-05, 03:40 AM :OMG!
Xeviat-DM
11-15-05, 03:45 AM Sorry for the exaggeration, but that was amazing. Vapthorne, I'm not sure if you're familiar with my work on these boards, but what you've suggested so far perfectly fits my setting. I'd need to move the domains around, but you've given me a great place to start from.

And I think you're right, that splitting the divine progression up amongst 10th and 20th level is best. Now, one quick thing: the Dread Necromancer becomes a Lich at 20th level, and that's a 4 level adjustment race. Might it be possible to grant, for instance, the celestial template at 10th and the half-celestial template at 20th (minus the spell like abilities). Just an idea.
starfire311
11-15-05, 09:25 AM Sorry for the exaggeration, but that was amazing. Vapthorne, I'm not sure if you're familiar with my work on these boards, but what you've suggested so far perfectly fits my setting. I'd need to move the domains around, but you've given me a great place to start from.

And I think you're right, that splitting the divine progression up amongst 10th and 20th level is best. Now, one quick thing: the Dread Necromancer becomes a Lich at 20th level, and that's a 4 level adjustment race. Might it be possible to grant, for instance, the celestial template at 10th and the half-celestial template at 20th (minus the spell like abilities). Just an idea.

Seems like it would be ok to me as long as you keep it in balance with other classes, this cleric seems signifacantly stronger than the current cleric.
Xeviat-DM
11-15-05, 03:50 PM Seems like it would be ok to me as long as you keep it in balance with other classes, this cleric seems signifacantly stronger than the current cleric.

There may be some amount of rebalancing required, which is why I'm here getting suggestions before implimenting it in my game. I do use a split ability score requirement for spellcasting in my games (Wis determines bonus spells, Cha determines DCs, and Int modifies spellcraft and knowledge which are both important in using spells), and as you've seen with a few of the current varient classes from the Complete series, they've allowed more powerful casters since they split the functions of their spells.

I'll post my idea for the "spheres"; but again, I do need suggestions on what a cleric should get if they choose two domains from the same sphere. Was my specialist idea good enough?
Vapthorne
11-15-05, 04:50 PM I'm glad that you were impressed by my sphere suggestion.

I'll post my idea for the "spheres"; but again, I do need suggestions on what a cleric should get if they choose two domains from the same sphere. Was my specialist idea good enough?

I have a simple suggestion: if a priest has two domains in the same sphere (let's say War and Fire from the Conflict Sphere) then I would grant a +1 DC for all spells in that sphere and treat them +2 caster levels for duration/dice/range purposes in addition to the benefits of both domain powers (Martial Weapon Focus and Turn Fire-creatures).

However, when arranging the domains into spheres, I'd do my best make sure each player has a choice of 2-3 spheres regardless of what deity chosen.

For granting a celestial template at 10 and half-celestial (or whatever); I'd would not recommend that. That's a +6 LA right there; a losing the spells won't matter too much since we're adding to a spellcaster. The celestial template is fine; it makes the priest like a Favored Soul. You can either add wings or a bonus to skills and saves if you think it's not enough.
Xeviat-DM
11-16-05, 06:58 PM I had assumed that there was quite a bit of overlap between the two templates, so it would only really work out to being a 4 level adjustment, which is the same as the lich abilities that the Dread Necromancer gets. Remember, with the sphere system, clerics are going to have a much more reduced spell casting capability.
starfire311
11-17-05, 09:37 AM how about just giving some of the half-celestial bonuses at 10th level and the rest at 20th
Xeviat-DM
11-20-05, 03:08 PM Celestial will grant, when ignoring Smite Good:
Darkvision 60 ft.
DR 5/magic (at 10th), possibly upgrading to 10/magic at 12th
Resistance to acid, cold, and electricity 10
SR = HD +5

Ontop of those, the Half-Celestial template will grant, when ignoring the spell-like abilities:
Type changes to Outsider
Wings with fly speed equal to 2x land speed (good)
Natural Armor +1
Daylight at will (can easily ignore)
Immunity to Disease
DR 10/magic
SR = HD +10
+4 savs vs. poison
Ability increases (can be ignored)

So, I do think that the Half-Celestial template is going too far, but at 20th they will become an outsider (though fey might make more sense for the majority of the clerics in my setting). Those Celestial abilities need to be split up; perhaps the class can gain its abilities every 4 levels to fit in a tiered structure.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 11-06-05, 03:45 PM	Long ago, I started on a quest to mold D&D into what I wanted it to be for my setting. I created a new class (the Knight), removed one and replaced it with another (my Templar replaces the Paladin), and almost entirely changed another (the Monk). Recently I have begun working with a class calculator that prices everything by comparing abilities to the value of feats. While I did this, I stared to notice that, at least in my setting, it might be possible to combine the Druid and the Cleric. So I started by altering the domains a bit. Over the last year, I've been improving/altering the domain powers in my effort to add versatility to the Cleric class (this was before I wanted to combine the cleric and the druid). I removed the cleric's ability to turn/rebuke undead, and removed their ability to spontaniously cast cure/inflict spells. In return for turn/rebuke undead, I gave the cleric a spirit companion (think a familiar with a planar template that can only be summoned for 2 hours per day per character level like a paladin's mount; though as a companion it has it's own HD, feats, skills, and abilities). I gave clerics the ability to spontaniously cast their domain spells, and altered many domain powers. Death became Rebuke undead, Sun became Turn undead. Healing became lay on hands, Destruction became harmful touch (cha x level damage/day, with a will save (DC 1/2 HD + Cha mod) for half). The alignment domains became Turn opposite, rebuke same alignment subtype creatures. Animal became rebuke animals, Plant became rebuke plants. I'm still working on some others (will add more uses/day as levels increase to domains like protection and strength). Then I started to think about combining the Cleric and the Druid. In my setting, there are two kinds of deities: Gods and Demons. Gods are the Lawful deities, and people worship them to recieve blessings. Demons are the Chaotic deities, and people worship them to stop or redirect their wrath. My setting is one which focuses on the conflict between law and chaos, society and nature, and other opposites which seem to be more gray conflicts than the one between good and evil (I still have a heaven, with Angels, and a hell, with Devils, but they play more important roles in planar campaigns). Because Clerics are the priests of society and Druids are the priests of nature, I could easily tie clerics to the new Priests of Lawful deities, and druids to the new Priests of Chaotic deities. I still need to figure out what I will do about the few neutral deities, what they will represent, and who will serve them. So, here is the current build for the Priest: PRIEST, d6 HD, 4 SP Spells Per Day Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Domains, Spirit Companion 1 - - - - - - - - 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Spirit’s Favor 2 - - - - - - - - 3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 2 1 - - - - - - - 4th +3 +1 +1 +4 3 2 - - - - - - - 5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Spiritual Sight 3 2 1 - - - - - - 6th +4 +2 +2 +5 3 3 2 - - - - - - 7th +5 +2 +2 +5 4 3 2 1 - - - - - 8th +6 +2 +2 +6 4 3 3 2 - - - - - 9th +6 +3 +3 +6 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - 10th +7 +3 +3 +7 ? 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - 11th +8 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - 12th +9 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - 13th +9 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - 14th +10 +4 +4 +9 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - 15th +11 +5 +5 +9 Timeless Body 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - 16th +12 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - 17th +12 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 18th +13 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 19th +14 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 20th +15 +6 +6 +12 Divine Infusion 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Spirit Companion: I'll post specifics soon. Spiritual Sight (Su): The Priest has the ability to see into the spiritual realm of their plane. In my setting, this is the Spirit World on the prime material plane. In standard D&D, this would be the ethereal and shadow planes. The Priest can decern which plane creatures are on when using this sight. ?: I need an ability for here, probably one tied to Divine Infusion so they don't gain everything at once. Perhaps a slightly different progression of abilities would work as well, making abilities every 4 levels instead of every 5. Timeless Body: As the druid. Divine Infusion: Character picks up appropriate planar template (Celestial, Fiendish, Anarchic, Axiomatic) based on the nature and origin of their deity. One last thing: I think I'd get some pretty wierd results if I just combined the Cleric and Druid spell lists. Rather than that, I think it might be appropriate to try to reincorperate the old sphere system. Rather than each domain having a set of domain spells, each domain could grant associations to a certain sphere of priestly magic. Each domain wouldn't have it's own sphere, rather domains would be grouped together along similar themes (elemental, alignment, life/death, ect.). Decisions would have to be made on which spells would be granted to all priests (but that could be determined by noting the overlap). Thanks for any advice offered. I need help with the spell list and determining how the class's special abilities should be tiered. As a last note, Druid special abilities will be carefully replaced by spells.
Xeviat-DM 11-14-05, 02:30 PM	Bump
Vapthorne 11-14-05, 03:53 PM	Not bad, thus far. If you wish to break the Cleric/Druid spell list into spheres in the manner you suggested then first, I would decide how many spheres I want and divide them among the domains. Just real quick, I went with seven and tied three domains into each (well, one of them will have four). Like: Sphere of Alignment [Domain: Good, Law, Evil, Chaos] ** This is one that has four domains, but each would be slightly different each alignment based spell. Sphere of Conflict (or Fire) [Domains: Fire, War, Destruction] Sphere of Fortune (or Water) [Domains: Water, Luck, Healing] Sphere of Prowess (or Earth) [Domains: Earth, Strength, Animal] Sphere of Wisdom (or Air) [Domains: Air, Knowledge, Travel] Sphere of Magic [Domains: Magic, Trickery, Protection] Sphere of the Life Cycle [Domains: Plant, Death, Sun] Now just take the spell lists and divide into eight list (one for each sphere and leave a generic one for all priest). You can change the list how you like. But remember when assigning each domain to a sphere, I did my best to not overlap any similar domains. What I mean, let's say this is used with the normal DnD Gods then the domains Sun, Strength, and Healing should not be lumped into one sphere. Otherwise a Pelor Cleric would had been screwed. At least here, he could choose between 4/7 spheres: Life Cycle, Alignment (Good), Prowess, and Fortune. For the level 10 ability, you can either allow the cleric to choose another domain. Or split the planar-template abilities. At Level 10: Spell Resistance, Darkvision, and treat diety's favored weaponed as an magic weapon. At level 20: Granted Damage Reduction and Resistance. I do not know if this is what you want.
Xeviat-DM 11-15-05, 03:40 AM	:OMG!
Xeviat-DM 11-15-05, 03:45 AM	Sorry for the exaggeration, but that was amazing. Vapthorne, I'm not sure if you're familiar with my work on these boards, but what you've suggested so far perfectly fits my setting. I'd need to move the domains around, but you've given me a great place to start from. And I think you're right, that splitting the divine progression up amongst 10th and 20th level is best. Now, one quick thing: the Dread Necromancer becomes a Lich at 20th level, and that's a 4 level adjustment race. Might it be possible to grant, for instance, the celestial template at 10th and the half-celestial template at 20th (minus the spell like abilities). Just an idea.
starfire311 11-15-05, 09:25 AM	Sorry for the exaggeration, but that was amazing. Vapthorne, I'm not sure if you're familiar with my work on these boards, but what you've suggested so far perfectly fits my setting. I'd need to move the domains around, but you've given me a great place to start from. And I think you're right, that splitting the divine progression up amongst 10th and 20th level is best. Now, one quick thing: the Dread Necromancer becomes a Lich at 20th level, and that's a 4 level adjustment race. Might it be possible to grant, for instance, the celestial template at 10th and the half-celestial template at 20th (minus the spell like abilities). Just an idea. Seems like it would be ok to me as long as you keep it in balance with other classes, this cleric seems signifacantly stronger than the current cleric.
Xeviat-DM 11-15-05, 03:50 PM	Seems like it would be ok to me as long as you keep it in balance with other classes, this cleric seems signifacantly stronger than the current cleric. There may be some amount of rebalancing required, which is why I'm here getting suggestions before implimenting it in my game. I do use a split ability score requirement for spellcasting in my games (Wis determines bonus spells, Cha determines DCs, and Int modifies spellcraft and knowledge which are both important in using spells), and as you've seen with a few of the current varient classes from the Complete series, they've allowed more powerful casters since they split the functions of their spells. I'll post my idea for the "spheres"; but again, I do need suggestions on what a cleric should get if they choose two domains from the same sphere. Was my specialist idea good enough?
Vapthorne 11-15-05, 04:50 PM	I'm glad that you were impressed by my sphere suggestion. I'll post my idea for the "spheres"; but again, I do need suggestions on what a cleric should get if they choose two domains from the same sphere. Was my specialist idea good enough? I have a simple suggestion: if a priest has two domains in the same sphere (let's say War and Fire from the Conflict Sphere) then I would grant a +1 DC for all spells in that sphere and treat them +2 caster levels for duration/dice/range purposes in addition to the benefits of both domain powers (Martial Weapon Focus and Turn Fire-creatures). However, when arranging the domains into spheres, I'd do my best make sure each player has a choice of 2-3 spheres regardless of what deity chosen. For granting a celestial template at 10 and half-celestial (or whatever); I'd would not recommend that. That's a +6 LA right there; a losing the spells won't matter too much since we're adding to a spellcaster. The celestial template is fine; it makes the priest like a Favored Soul. You can either add wings or a bonus to skills and saves if you think it's not enough.
Xeviat-DM 11-16-05, 06:58 PM	I had assumed that there was quite a bit of overlap between the two templates, so it would only really work out to being a 4 level adjustment, which is the same as the lich abilities that the Dread Necromancer gets. Remember, with the sphere system, clerics are going to have a much more reduced spell casting capability.
starfire311 11-17-05, 09:37 AM	how about just giving some of the half-celestial bonuses at 10th level and the rest at 20th
Xeviat-DM 11-20-05, 03:08 PM	Celestial will grant, when ignoring Smite Good: Darkvision 60 ft. DR 5/magic (at 10th), possibly upgrading to 10/magic at 12th Resistance to acid, cold, and electricity 10 SR = HD +5 Ontop of those, the Half-Celestial template will grant, when ignoring the spell-like abilities: Type changes to Outsider Wings with fly speed equal to 2x land speed (good) Natural Armor +1 Daylight at will (can easily ignore) Immunity to Disease DR 10/magic SR = HD +10 +4 savs vs. poison Ability increases (can be ignored) So, I do think that the Half-Celestial template is going too far, but at 20th they will become an outsider (though fey might make more sense for the majority of the clerics in my setting). Those Celestial abilities need to be split up; perhaps the class can gain its abilities every 4 levels to fit in a tiered structure. Let me know what you think. Thanks.