Things I'm angry they didn't include [Archive] - Wizards Community

Things I'm angry they didn't include [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zifnab2525
03-11-04, 06:46 PM Variant Sorceror didn't really solve the sorceror dilema. While I can't argue that sorcerors are powerful (we have one in our campaign and even multiclassed into rogue he does amazing stuff) they are crippled outside of the combat arena. No bonus feats, no realistic item creation, virtually no skill-points and no list of skills to choose from... where were the "Wild Sorceror" or "Tinker Sorceror" variants? I'd gladly sack a spell/day for +4 skill points a level. Perhaps include some Knowledge(Nature), Hide and MS, and Survival for the Kobold Sorc. Or give them Appraise, Desipher Script, Disable Device, and Use MD for the Gnomish Inventor.

They also failed to address I know we've all encountered at higher levels - casters ruling the game. After 13th or 15th level Fighters just don't pull their weight. Once the Cleric starts pulling the Divine Power (doesn't even have to be Persistant when he can cast it four or five times a day) the Fighter just becomes obsolete. And if the Wizard is a Dex monkey with Improved Initative but the Ranger isn't, guess who's going first? With a Horrid Wilting or Prismatic Spray the Ranger might not be going at all. I'd like to see rules variants for higher level spells taking longer to cast. Perhaps have 1st-3rd spells take the normal one round with 4th-6th taking two and the truly devistating 7th-9th level spells taking a whole three rounds to pull off. Cinematically it adds alot - the Wizard speaking words of power to chill the bone as he slowly weaves the spells to raise an army of undead from the earth, or the Cleric giving pause to say a litteny to his god before miraculously healing the entire party of all its ills. Mechanically, the warrior types have more chance to strut their stuff and wade into combat. Spells also don't come across as so broken - imagine 3.0 Haste in a game where 9th level spells didn't suddenly become Quickened, and Disintegrate gives players who make their Spellcraft check a chance to dive for cover.

Ideas like these are things I expected from WotC. Instead I find myself reading a book that offers new variants to break metamagic spells. Gah!

Oh well.
Masterful_Norg
03-11-04, 08:40 PM What you could do is make the fighter and barbarian able to cast spells from the cleric war or strength domain that kick in at 7th level. Because intimidate is in their class skills make them cast using charisma. I mean, who ever saw an axe or sword wielding guy who could fall from a 6 story building and walk away un faltered (a 7th level fighter or barbarian). How do we know said guy couldn't cast spells having to do with increasing sword or axe weilding?.
Erebus
03-11-04, 10:18 PM Quick idea for the sorcerer (and probably a broken one) would be allow them to choose ANY spell as a spell known, arcane or otherwise.

As for magic, well, the game is heavily magic-dependent. Fighters need cool weapons and armor to keep up, it's true, but what happens when characters can't use their magic (i.e. dispel or antimagic field or whatever)? A well-built fighter usually cleans house.

One thing I'm kind of sad they didn't include (but far from angry) is a point-based classless system. Of course, I'm already working on my own but it would of been nice if someone else had done the work for me. :)

-E
MightyMightyThundarr
03-12-04, 12:21 AM Variant Sorceror didn't really solve the sorceror dilema. While I can't argue that sorcerors are powerful (we have one in our campaign and even multiclassed into rogue he does amazing stuff) they are crippled outside of the combat arena. No bonus feats, no realistic item creation, virtually no skill-points and no list of skills to choose from... where were the "Wild Sorceror" or "Tinker Sorceror" variants? I'd gladly sack a spell/day for +4 skill points a level. Perhaps include some Knowledge(Nature), Hide and MS, and Survival for the Kobold Sorc. Or give them Appraise, Desipher Script, Disable Device, and Use MD for the Gnomish Inventor.

That sounds more like it'd fit in an upcoming spellcaster equivalent to Complete Warrior. I'd expect to see something like these suggestions in that book.
Kainy
03-12-04, 12:57 AM In my experience, the staying power of the barbarian and the ridiculous amount of feats that fighters get keep both of them in the game, even into the 30's.
Archangel
03-12-04, 03:28 AM If spellcasters were changed to cast spells 2 or 3 rounds then they would be useless, because anybody could kill them before they got their first spell done!
Tenzhi
03-12-04, 04:14 AM I personally change it so that spells normally take a full-round action to cast rather than a standard action (and Quicken Spell then makes it into a standard action).

I'm also in favour of giving Sorcerors a 1d6 HD and 4 skill points per level.
Lina_Inverse
03-12-04, 06:15 AM balenceing casters isnt too hard

nuke wizards....completely as long as they exist the rogues will be obselete

smack divine casters to d6 hitdice and mage BAB,not the ranger and paladin obvisly just the ones who get 9 levels of spells

hit any form of one hit kill attack with a bigger penalty,i suggest a +2 bonues to save against them.this includes anything that removes a person from battle includeing such wonderful spells as
dominate person and hold person

use the spont divine casters varient,so they dont know every spell and cant prepare for every thing perfectly after half an hour of scrying

that should fix most of your problems.of course your mileage may vary.
Veton
03-12-04, 09:00 AM Originally posted by zifnab2525
They also failed to address I know we've all encountered at higher levels - casters ruling the game. After 13th or 15th level Fighters just don't pull their weight. Once the Cleric starts pulling the Divine Power (doesn't even have to be Persistant when he can cast it four or five times a day) the Fighter just becomes obsolete. And if the Wizard is a Dex monkey with Improved Initative but the Ranger isn't, guess who's going first? With a Horrid Wilting or Prismatic Spray the Ranger might not be going at all. I'd like to see rules variants for higher level spells taking longer to cast. Perhaps have 1st-3rd spells take the normal one round with 4th-6th taking two and the truly devistating 7th-9th level spells taking a whole three rounds to pull off. Cinematically it adds alot - the Wizard speaking words of power to chill the bone as he slowly weaves the spells to raise an army of undead from the earth, or the Cleric giving pause to say a litteny to his god before miraculously healing the entire party of all its ills. Mechanically, the warrior types have more chance to strut their stuff and wade into combat. Spells also don't come across as so broken - imagine 3.0 Haste in a game where 9th level spells didn't suddenly become Quickened, and Disintegrate gives players who make their Spellcraft check a chance to dive for cover.

Well, you could take the recharge magic rules and apply it to casting time.

So a level 11 wizard casting Disintigrate has to cast for 1d6+some number (Don't have my book with me now) of rounds.
Lady Ishtar
03-12-04, 10:29 AM i have seen a lvl 30 fighter (straight fighter), and it is a truly a frightening engine of destruction

the problem with sorcs at higher lvls is that most things can make the save and/or have energy resistances. they are great at wiping out smaller things, but bigger things are usually too resistant to magic

and the poor cleric is too busy making sure everyone stays alive

also smart enemies usually try to take out the spellcasters, arcane and divine, first

its up to DM to make sure that everyone is important in a fight
Belegbeth
03-12-04, 12:07 PM Originally posted by Tenzhi
I'm also in favour of giving Sorcerors a 1d6 HD and 4 skill points per level.

Then you should check out Monte Cook's variant Sorcerer in *The Complete Book of Eldritch Might*. Though not as flavorful as his variant Bard (who casts "songs" -- notes, chords, and melodies -- instead of spells), it is a more balanced version of the class. In addition to d6 HD and more skill points, his variant Sorcerer does not need material components for his "innate" spells. (Expensive components for higher level spells require an xp cost.)
Olli
05-13-04, 01:40 PM well, if you don´t like the way spellcasting works, than you could do the same as i and use a variant of 2e-rules(an outrage, i know :D ). assign a speedfactor to weapons and a castingtime to spells and subtract the modifier from your initiative. this works best, if you roll for initiative each round. so in most combats a fighter with a longsword will be faster than a wizard using a highlevel spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zifnab2525 03-11-04, 06:46 PM	Variant Sorceror didn't really solve the sorceror dilema. While I can't argue that sorcerors are powerful (we have one in our campaign and even multiclassed into rogue he does amazing stuff) they are crippled outside of the combat arena. No bonus feats, no realistic item creation, virtually no skill-points and no list of skills to choose from... where were the "Wild Sorceror" or "Tinker Sorceror" variants? I'd gladly sack a spell/day for +4 skill points a level. Perhaps include some Knowledge(Nature), Hide and MS, and Survival for the Kobold Sorc. Or give them Appraise, Desipher Script, Disable Device, and Use MD for the Gnomish Inventor. They also failed to address I know we've all encountered at higher levels - casters ruling the game. After 13th or 15th level Fighters just don't pull their weight. Once the Cleric starts pulling the Divine Power (doesn't even have to be Persistant when he can cast it four or five times a day) the Fighter just becomes obsolete. And if the Wizard is a Dex monkey with Improved Initative but the Ranger isn't, guess who's going first? With a Horrid Wilting or Prismatic Spray the Ranger might not be going at all. I'd like to see rules variants for higher level spells taking longer to cast. Perhaps have 1st-3rd spells take the normal one round with 4th-6th taking two and the truly devistating 7th-9th level spells taking a whole three rounds to pull off. Cinematically it adds alot - the Wizard speaking words of power to chill the bone as he slowly weaves the spells to raise an army of undead from the earth, or the Cleric giving pause to say a litteny to his god before miraculously healing the entire party of all its ills. Mechanically, the warrior types have more chance to strut their stuff and wade into combat. Spells also don't come across as so broken - imagine 3.0 Haste in a game where 9th level spells didn't suddenly become Quickened, and Disintegrate gives players who make their Spellcraft check a chance to dive for cover. Ideas like these are things I expected from WotC. Instead I find myself reading a book that offers new variants to break metamagic spells. Gah! Oh well.
Masterful_Norg 03-11-04, 08:40 PM	What you could do is make the fighter and barbarian able to cast spells from the cleric war or strength domain that kick in at 7th level. Because intimidate is in their class skills make them cast using charisma. I mean, who ever saw an axe or sword wielding guy who could fall from a 6 story building and walk away un faltered (a 7th level fighter or barbarian). How do we know said guy couldn't cast spells having to do with increasing sword or axe weilding?.
Erebus 03-11-04, 10:18 PM	Quick idea for the sorcerer (and probably a broken one) would be allow them to choose ANY spell as a spell known, arcane or otherwise. As for magic, well, the game is heavily magic-dependent. Fighters need cool weapons and armor to keep up, it's true, but what happens when characters can't use their magic (i.e. dispel or antimagic field or whatever)? A well-built fighter usually cleans house. One thing I'm kind of sad they didn't include (but far from angry) is a point-based classless system. Of course, I'm already working on my own but it would of been nice if someone else had done the work for me. :) -E
MightyMightyThundarr 03-12-04, 12:21 AM	Variant Sorceror didn't really solve the sorceror dilema. While I can't argue that sorcerors are powerful (we have one in our campaign and even multiclassed into rogue he does amazing stuff) they are crippled outside of the combat arena. No bonus feats, no realistic item creation, virtually no skill-points and no list of skills to choose from... where were the "Wild Sorceror" or "Tinker Sorceror" variants? I'd gladly sack a spell/day for +4 skill points a level. Perhaps include some Knowledge(Nature), Hide and MS, and Survival for the Kobold Sorc. Or give them Appraise, Desipher Script, Disable Device, and Use MD for the Gnomish Inventor. That sounds more like it'd fit in an upcoming spellcaster equivalent to Complete Warrior. I'd expect to see something like these suggestions in that book.
Kainy 03-12-04, 12:57 AM	In my experience, the staying power of the barbarian and the ridiculous amount of feats that fighters get keep both of them in the game, even into the 30's.
Archangel 03-12-04, 03:28 AM	If spellcasters were changed to cast spells 2 or 3 rounds then they would be useless, because anybody could kill them before they got their first spell done!
Tenzhi 03-12-04, 04:14 AM	I personally change it so that spells normally take a full-round action to cast rather than a standard action (and Quicken Spell then makes it into a standard action). I'm also in favour of giving Sorcerors a 1d6 HD and 4 skill points per level.
Lina_Inverse 03-12-04, 06:15 AM	balenceing casters isnt too hard nuke wizards....completely as long as they exist the rogues will be obselete smack divine casters to d6 hitdice and mage BAB,not the ranger and paladin obvisly just the ones who get 9 levels of spells hit any form of one hit kill attack with a bigger penalty,i suggest a +2 bonues to save against them.this includes anything that removes a person from battle includeing such wonderful spells as dominate person and hold person use the spont divine casters varient,so they dont know every spell and cant prepare for every thing perfectly after half an hour of scrying that should fix most of your problems.of course your mileage may vary.
Veton 03-12-04, 09:00 AM	Originally posted by zifnab2525 They also failed to address I know we've all encountered at higher levels - casters ruling the game. After 13th or 15th level Fighters just don't pull their weight. Once the Cleric starts pulling the Divine Power (doesn't even have to be Persistant when he can cast it four or five times a day) the Fighter just becomes obsolete. And if the Wizard is a Dex monkey with Improved Initative but the Ranger isn't, guess who's going first? With a Horrid Wilting or Prismatic Spray the Ranger might not be going at all. I'd like to see rules variants for higher level spells taking longer to cast. Perhaps have 1st-3rd spells take the normal one round with 4th-6th taking two and the truly devistating 7th-9th level spells taking a whole three rounds to pull off. Cinematically it adds alot - the Wizard speaking words of power to chill the bone as he slowly weaves the spells to raise an army of undead from the earth, or the Cleric giving pause to say a litteny to his god before miraculously healing the entire party of all its ills. Mechanically, the warrior types have more chance to strut their stuff and wade into combat. Spells also don't come across as so broken - imagine 3.0 Haste in a game where 9th level spells didn't suddenly become Quickened, and Disintegrate gives players who make their Spellcraft check a chance to dive for cover. Well, you could take the recharge magic rules and apply it to casting time. So a level 11 wizard casting Disintigrate has to cast for 1d6+some number (Don't have my book with me now) of rounds.
Lady Ishtar 03-12-04, 10:29 AM	i have seen a lvl 30 fighter (straight fighter), and it is a truly a frightening engine of destruction the problem with sorcs at higher lvls is that most things can make the save and/or have energy resistances. they are great at wiping out smaller things, but bigger things are usually too resistant to magic and the poor cleric is too busy making sure everyone stays alive also smart enemies usually try to take out the spellcasters, arcane and divine, first its up to DM to make sure that everyone is important in a fight
Belegbeth 03-12-04, 12:07 PM	Originally posted by Tenzhi I'm also in favour of giving Sorcerors a 1d6 HD and 4 skill points per level. Then you should check out Monte Cook's variant Sorcerer in The Complete Book of Eldritch Might. Though not as flavorful as his variant Bard (who casts "songs" -- notes, chords, and melodies -- instead of spells), it is a more balanced version of the class. In addition to d6 HD and more skill points, his variant Sorcerer does not need material components for his "innate" spells. (Expensive components for higher level spells require an xp cost.)
Olli 05-13-04, 01:40 PM	well, if you don´t like the way spellcasting works, than you could do the same as i and use a variant of 2e-rules(an outrage, i know :D ). assign a speedfactor to weapons and a castingtime to spells and subtract the modifier from your initiative. this works best, if you roll for initiative each round. so in most combats a fighter with a longsword will be faster than a wizard using a highlevel spell.