Thinking Of Running A Gestalt Campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thinking Of Running A Gestalt Campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alexei
01-09-06, 01:11 PM Hi guys, got my copy of UA recently was thinking of running a gestalt campaign for my 4 players. Before I do, I'd like to get a little better informed of what to expect. Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

1. I've read over the gestalt rules, and I know that the PCs will be more powerful (but not doubly so) than normal PCs. The rules recommend +1 ELs for normal encounters and +2 EL for encounters that have lots of saving throws. Does this work well during play? If not, what strategies have you used to challenge the players?

2. Although gestalt characters seem to have been made, primarily, for small groups, I'll be running with 4 players. Is this too many? Will there be too much overlap?

3. Is any one build overpowered in comparison to others? I've heard talk that Monk/Druids can be very overpowering. Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PC

4. Just how easy is it to run a gestalt campaign, in comparison to a regular campaign?

5. Any other pitfalls I can avoid? Any other tips?

Alexei.
lostone
01-10-06, 07:48 AM 1. I've read over the gestalt rules, and I know that the PCs will be more powerful (but not doubly so) than normal PCs. The rules recommend +1 ELs for normal encounters and +2 EL for encounters that have lots of saving throws. Does this work well during play? If not, what strategies have you used to challenge the players?Depends on how optimized the characters are. In my group the normal EL isn't good enough, they typically need at least +3 or +4 without gestalt.

2. Although gestalt characters seem to have been made, primarily, for small groups, I'll be running with 4 players. Is this too many? Will there be too much overlap?Only if you follow through with what you say in 3. If you allow multi-classing and prestige classes, there should be enough diversity (even if you only have the core books).

3. Is any one build overpowered in comparison to others? I've heard talk that Monk/Druids can be very overpowering. Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PCThat would kill it for me and my players. We love the prestige classes and there is never a straight <core class> 20 anymore. And half the core classes get boring/underpowered once you hit a certain point, far before level 20. "Yay...another level of fighter...oooh...surprise...another feat...*yawn*". The most exciting part for me and mine about gestalt were the possibilities that were opened by gestalt when considering multiclassing and prestige class combinations. The gameplay changed very little except that the characters were usually more well-rounded or more specialized on one thing.

4. Just how easy is it to run a gestalt campaign, in comparison to a regular campaign?Runs just like any other game. I made all the BBEGs gestalt as well, really through some curveballs at the group and kept them on their toes. Naturally that takes a bit more planning time on the DMs part to come up with decent BBEG gestalt combinations, but still.

5. Any other pitfalls I can avoid? Any other tips?Either make sure everyone is on the same page, or level up each character in a 1:1 DM to Player situation. What I found when trying to have everyone level up at the same time is that some players understood the gestalt rules differently than others which resulted in some figuring saving throws and BAB differently. So some had higher than they should while others were doing it right.
Tyler Do'Urden
01-10-06, 01:10 PM The only pitfall I would warn you about is the fact that you can't take the same level twice, but you've outlawed multiclassing entirely, so it won't be a problem.

It occurs to me that gestalt parties don't really balance with an LA, they balance with a larger group because they don't really gain quicker access to anything level-dependant, they just have more resources.
Two or three gestalt characters are about as powerful as four standard characters.
Four gestalt characters are about as powerful as five or six standard characters.
Six gestalt characters are about as powerful as eight to ten standard characters.

It leans pretty heavily on how powerful the base classes are and how well they mesh. Monk/clerics place just a little bit higher than say fighter/soulknives. Sorcerer/wizards are kind of like standard sorcerers or wizards but sort of amplified; they've got about twice as many spells, but those same old weaknesses make them appear that much more fragile compared to other gestalt characters.
sren
01-11-06, 08:01 PM I'm currently running a gestalt game. I've found that my characters can't necessarily overcome any single encounter better than a balanced fully rested party of non-gestalt characters, however, they can handle more encounters in between rests unless they get careless.

The only changes I made to the rules as written in UA was that I only let the characters multiclass one side of their progression, so they have to stick with one base class. (This was done more to make the number-crunching easier than for the power levels of the characters)

As for diversity, out of four regular players and one occasional player, I've got almost little/no diversity. I have two fighter-clerics, a fighter-scout, a bard-swashbuckler and a fighter-barbarian (the barbarian has only played once). So basically, all of the characters are primarily melee fighters with a couple extra tricks. If I ever run another gestalt game, I'll require that each of the primary party roles gets filled with the first four characters (mage, healer, trap-finder and melee fighter). Hopefully, you'll get more diversity by the choice of your players...

Encounters aren't really much of an issue, a normal, fully rested group, should be able to survive an encounter level up to four or even five higher than their party level, just not multiple such encounters in succession. So far, since my group started working well together, I pit them against two or three such encounters in between rests (we meet on week nights, so we don't have time for more than two encounters very often, and letting them rest in between sessions is convinient).

To answer your questions specifically:
1) Lower CRs by one when determining encounter difficulty and when calculating XP (or by two if they just breeze through the encounter). If you want four encounters per rest period, I'd recommend four encounters with an EL of one or two above the average party level (after adjusting the CR by -1 or -2).

2) If you'd like to try the gestalt varient, don't worry about overlap. Feats still come at the normal rate and ability scores don't get any bonus (unless you give them one), so each character will still be somewhat specialized. And overlapping would be good for the party if they make their characters so each one has a backup.

3) As long as each player gets the same opportunities, I don't believe in a overpowered characters. As long each character is someone comparable to the others, the only balance you need to worry about is doing what keeps the game fun for both you and the players. You choose the threat level (at least most of the time), so try thinking of encounters more in terms of what challenges you present, not in terms of whether the characters are too strong for your encounter. And easy encounters have their place too, getting their confidence p is a good way to get them to bite off more than they can chew... which is where the fun can be for you ;-).

4) So far, other than a hiccup in the first couple games in getting the group to work together, it hasn't been any harder than running any other game. I still find it a little difficult to keep the characters alive, but maybe thats because I like to use powerful monsters (they're way more fun to DM than hordes of un-leveled goblins, kobolds, ogres).

5) Hnn... other tips. I've probably worn out my welcome, but I always have mroe to say. For pitfalls, I'd recomend making sure the group is complete, its annoying to have to re-evaluate your campaign plans to adjust for a complete lack of magical power in a setting where magic is common (my game is in eberron), so makign sure you actually have every role covered is more of a concern than their being too much overlap (in fact, overlap ought to make for a good theme game, i.e. a wizard's or thieve's guild, or an ascetic order of monks and priests etc.). For advice, unless your players like the idea, I'd recommend you don't completely ban all multiclassing, a lot of the flavor I find in the setting is in working towards and playing in a PRC, so just restricing characters to multiclassing one side of their progression, and only after level five might be a good middle ground between not allowing PRCs and fears of overpowered characters or over-complicated number-crunching.

Anyways, thats my experience & advice, hope it was helpfull.
S'Ren
dagger
01-12-06, 12:30 AM Hi guys, got my copy of UA recently was thinking of running a gestalt campaign for my 4 players. Before I do, I'd like to get a little better informed of what to expect. Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

1. I've read over the gestalt rules, and I know that the PCs will be more powerful (but not doubly so) than normal PCs. The rules recommend +1 ELs for normal encounters and +2 EL for encounters that have lots of saving throws. Does this work well during play? If not, what strategies have you used to challenge the players?

2. Although gestalt characters seem to have been made, primarily, for small groups, I'll be running with 4 players. Is this too many? Will there be too much overlap?

3. Is any one build overpowered in comparison to others? I've heard talk that Monk/Druids can be very overpowering. Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PC

4. Just how easy is it to run a gestalt campaign, in comparison to a regular campaign?

5. Any other pitfalls I can avoid? Any other tips?

Alexei.

I have two campaigns going, one with anything goes Gestalt, and on with core classes only. I and my players prefer core classes only. I disagree with the above poster that you need to have prc's to prevent overlap. Im sorry, its Gestalt, there is going to be overlap, thats kinda the point.

I would ban all prc's and just throw in some of the core classes from the Complete books.
LordArkan
01-12-06, 02:05 AM Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PC

Don't be surprised if everyone last one of them shows up as a Cleric/Druid. CoDzilla, indeed! :embarrass

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alexei 01-09-06, 01:11 PM	Hi guys, got my copy of UA recently was thinking of running a gestalt campaign for my 4 players. Before I do, I'd like to get a little better informed of what to expect. Thanks in advance for any help you can give. 1. I've read over the gestalt rules, and I know that the PCs will be more powerful (but not doubly so) than normal PCs. The rules recommend +1 ELs for normal encounters and +2 EL for encounters that have lots of saving throws. Does this work well during play? If not, what strategies have you used to challenge the players? 2. Although gestalt characters seem to have been made, primarily, for small groups, I'll be running with 4 players. Is this too many? Will there be too much overlap? 3. Is any one build overpowered in comparison to others? I've heard talk that Monk/Druids can be very overpowering. Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PC 4. Just how easy is it to run a gestalt campaign, in comparison to a regular campaign? 5. Any other pitfalls I can avoid? Any other tips? Alexei.
lostone 01-10-06, 07:48 AM	1. I've read over the gestalt rules, and I know that the PCs will be more powerful (but not doubly so) than normal PCs. The rules recommend +1 ELs for normal encounters and +2 EL for encounters that have lots of saving throws. Does this work well during play? If not, what strategies have you used to challenge the players?Depends on how optimized the characters are. In my group the normal EL isn't good enough, they typically need at least +3 or +4 without gestalt. 2. Although gestalt characters seem to have been made, primarily, for small groups, I'll be running with 4 players. Is this too many? Will there be too much overlap?Only if you follow through with what you say in 3. If you allow multi-classing and prestige classes, there should be enough diversity (even if you only have the core books). 3. Is any one build overpowered in comparison to others? I've heard talk that Monk/Druids can be very overpowering. Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PCThat would kill it for me and my players. We love the prestige classes and there is never a straight <core class> 20 anymore. And half the core classes get boring/underpowered once you hit a certain point, far before level 20. "Yay...another level of fighter...oooh...surprise...another feat...yawn". The most exciting part for me and mine about gestalt were the possibilities that were opened by gestalt when considering multiclassing and prestige class combinations. The gameplay changed very little except that the characters were usually more well-rounded or more specialized on one thing. 4. Just how easy is it to run a gestalt campaign, in comparison to a regular campaign?Runs just like any other game. I made all the BBEGs gestalt as well, really through some curveballs at the group and kept them on their toes. Naturally that takes a bit more planning time on the DMs part to come up with decent BBEG gestalt combinations, but still. 5. Any other pitfalls I can avoid? Any other tips?Either make sure everyone is on the same page, or level up each character in a 1:1 DM to Player situation. What I found when trying to have everyone level up at the same time is that some players understood the gestalt rules differently than others which resulted in some figuring saving throws and BAB differently. So some had higher than they should while others were doing it right.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-10-06, 01:10 PM	The only pitfall I would warn you about is the fact that you can't take the same level twice, but you've outlawed multiclassing entirely, so it won't be a problem. It occurs to me that gestalt parties don't really balance with an LA, they balance with a larger group because they don't really gain quicker access to anything level-dependant, they just have more resources. Two or three gestalt characters are about as powerful as four standard characters. Four gestalt characters are about as powerful as five or six standard characters. Six gestalt characters are about as powerful as eight to ten standard characters. It leans pretty heavily on how powerful the base classes are and how well they mesh. Monk/clerics place just a little bit higher than say fighter/soulknives. Sorcerer/wizards are kind of like standard sorcerers or wizards but sort of amplified; they've got about twice as many spells, but those same old weaknesses make them appear that much more fragile compared to other gestalt characters.
sren 01-11-06, 08:01 PM	I'm currently running a gestalt game. I've found that my characters can't necessarily overcome any single encounter better than a balanced fully rested party of non-gestalt characters, however, they can handle more encounters in between rests unless they get careless. The only changes I made to the rules as written in UA was that I only let the characters multiclass one side of their progression, so they have to stick with one base class. (This was done more to make the number-crunching easier than for the power levels of the characters) As for diversity, out of four regular players and one occasional player, I've got almost little/no diversity. I have two fighter-clerics, a fighter-scout, a bard-swashbuckler and a fighter-barbarian (the barbarian has only played once). So basically, all of the characters are primarily melee fighters with a couple extra tricks. If I ever run another gestalt game, I'll require that each of the primary party roles gets filled with the first four characters (mage, healer, trap-finder and melee fighter). Hopefully, you'll get more diversity by the choice of your players... Encounters aren't really much of an issue, a normal, fully rested group, should be able to survive an encounter level up to four or even five higher than their party level, just not multiple such encounters in succession. So far, since my group started working well together, I pit them against two or three such encounters in between rests (we meet on week nights, so we don't have time for more than two encounters very often, and letting them rest in between sessions is convinient). To answer your questions specifically: 1) Lower CRs by one when determining encounter difficulty and when calculating XP (or by two if they just breeze through the encounter). If you want four encounters per rest period, I'd recommend four encounters with an EL of one or two above the average party level (after adjusting the CR by -1 or -2). 2) If you'd like to try the gestalt varient, don't worry about overlap. Feats still come at the normal rate and ability scores don't get any bonus (unless you give them one), so each character will still be somewhat specialized. And overlapping would be good for the party if they make their characters so each one has a backup. 3) As long as each player gets the same opportunities, I don't believe in a overpowered characters. As long each character is someone comparable to the others, the only balance you need to worry about is doing what keeps the game fun for both you and the players. You choose the threat level (at least most of the time), so try thinking of encounters more in terms of what challenges you present, not in terms of whether the characters are too strong for your encounter. And easy encounters have their place too, getting their confidence p is a good way to get them to bite off more than they can chew... which is where the fun can be for you ;-). 4) So far, other than a hiccup in the first couple games in getting the group to work together, it hasn't been any harder than running any other game. I still find it a little difficult to keep the characters alive, but maybe thats because I like to use powerful monsters (they're way more fun to DM than hordes of un-leveled goblins, kobolds, ogres). 5) Hnn... other tips. I've probably worn out my welcome, but I always have mroe to say. For pitfalls, I'd recomend making sure the group is complete, its annoying to have to re-evaluate your campaign plans to adjust for a complete lack of magical power in a setting where magic is common (my game is in eberron), so makign sure you actually have every role covered is more of a concern than their being too much overlap (in fact, overlap ought to make for a good theme game, i.e. a wizard's or thieve's guild, or an ascetic order of monks and priests etc.). For advice, unless your players like the idea, I'd recommend you don't completely ban all multiclassing, a lot of the flavor I find in the setting is in working towards and playing in a PRC, so just restricing characters to multiclassing one side of their progression, and only after level five might be a good middle ground between not allowing PRCs and fears of overpowered characters or over-complicated number-crunching. Anyways, thats my experience & advice, hope it was helpfull. S'Ren
dagger 01-12-06, 12:30 AM	Hi guys, got my copy of UA recently was thinking of running a gestalt campaign for my 4 players. Before I do, I'd like to get a little better informed of what to expect. Thanks in advance for any help you can give. 1. I've read over the gestalt rules, and I know that the PCs will be more powerful (but not doubly so) than normal PCs. The rules recommend +1 ELs for normal encounters and +2 EL for encounters that have lots of saving throws. Does this work well during play? If not, what strategies have you used to challenge the players? 2. Although gestalt characters seem to have been made, primarily, for small groups, I'll be running with 4 players. Is this too many? Will there be too much overlap? 3. Is any one build overpowered in comparison to others? I've heard talk that Monk/Druids can be very overpowering. Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PC 4. Just how easy is it to run a gestalt campaign, in comparison to a regular campaign? 5. Any other pitfalls I can avoid? Any other tips? Alexei. I have two campaigns going, one with anything goes Gestalt, and on with core classes only. I and my players prefer core classes only. I disagree with the above poster that you need to have prc's to prevent overlap. Im sorry, its Gestalt, there is going to be overlap, thats kinda the point. I would ban all prc's and just throw in some of the core classes from the Complete books.
LordArkan 01-12-06, 02:05 AM	Note: I plan to disallow multiclassing and prestige classes (partly for simplicity) only 2 core classes can be used per PC Don't be surprised if everyone last one of them shows up as a Cleric/Druid. CoDzilla, indeed! :embarrass