Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xaqariah 03-21-07, 09:15 AM	Alrighty... I've never been comfortable with the idea, that casted magical damage automatically ignores all types of DR... Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally... Magic Missile, and Flaming Sphere, Inflict Light Wounds and a lowly Mephit's special attack will always do damage, regardless of DR type, while a high level weapon expert has to dig through a sack full of weapons or ammunition, on the off chance that he has SOMETHING with silver (or its equivalent) that will hurt that Werewolf... and then digging again, for that holy whatever, to attack the Vrock... and yet again, searching for a blunt weapon, to fight the giant skeleton... My proposition... Damage Reduction is only overcome by the attack type listed. Casted Magical damage automatically carries the "magic" type, and overcomes DR/magic. Casted magical damage also carries the caster's allignment, for the purpose of overcoming DR. (A chaotic/good Cleric attacks with inflict light wounds. His spell overcomes DR/magic, DR/chaos and DR/good.) Because Supernatural effects (Su) are also considered the same as magical effects, they also carry the magic and allignment types, for overcoming DR. What does this do? It makes the spellcasters have to work a little more to overcome DR. Some encounters may become more difficult, but not as many as one might think, seeing as many creatures with a high DR, also have resistances and immunities to varying energy types, which would put specific spells out of business, anyway. As DRs get higher, the lowly weapon specialist isn't falling as far behind the spellcasters, as fast, since the spellcasters aren't doing BOTH more damage, and overcoming DR, automatically, as quickly. (It holds the spellcaster back a little bit.) Thoughts?
Fafnir 03-21-07, 03:07 PM	Seems interesting enough. It's much more of a glaring inconsistency for spells and psionic powers that do, say, piercing damage (Swarm of Crystals anyone?) and STILL bypass DR. By the way, I think spells should only carry alignment if they have the appropriate descriptor. But that's just me. How will the casters cope with DR/material? This would give rise to some interesting new spells. I'm not an expert on game balance though, so I'd like to hear someone else's analysis too.
xaqariah 03-21-07, 08:13 PM	Allowing a character's Alignment to be part of his spells, for the purpose of overcoming DR, is a bit of consolation to the spell-slingers, because they DO have a terrible difficulty with things like DR/material. But I thought it would also give the weapon-masters a chance to shine, at the intermediate levels seeing as the spell-slingers wouldn't be able to deal with EVERYTHING, and also give the weapon-masters a purpose, at the upper levels, even when the spell-slingers are able to kick out enough damage that DR isn't as much of a problem anymore. Or, do the Spell-slingers already have enough issues with resistances, immunities and SR, that this isn't necessary? I haven't seen too many characters over Level 12-14, in 3.x to know all of the ramifications, but it seems to work in the intermediate levels.
Mitsukai_sama 03-21-07, 11:59 PM	It makes the spellcasters have to work a little more to overcome DR. Some encounters may become more difficult, but not as many as one might think, seeing as many creatures with a high DR, also have resistances and immunities to varying energy types, which would put specific spells out of business, anyway. Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally... Thread over? :]
xaqariah 03-22-07, 04:05 AM	Thread over? :] not quite... A creature with DR take normal damage from spells (etc.), while it "ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks"... Energy damage, spells and Supernatural abilities ignore DR, and deal "normal" damage, while weapon attacks have to be "just right" or super-damaging to deal damage. I think this is kinda silly, and would like to make spellcasters think a little more, when it comes to DR. This is why I am posting this idea.
Far_Traveler 03-22-07, 11:14 AM	Sorcerer/Wizard spell (evocation): Silver Shear, does 1d8/caster level in silver damage in a line, but only effects creatures with silver damage reduction. Cleric Spell: Adamant Will (abjuration), causes all supernatural and spell-like effects of creature touched that deal damage to count as adamantine for purposes of damage reduction and hardness for 10min/level Bard Spell: Fey Dread (enchantment), causes target to make a fortitude save or all effects count as cold iron in addition to other effects for purposes of damage reduction (effectively eliminating said damage reduction) There, 3 effects, 3 spell lists, 3 schools, 3 materials. Maybe have the spell level be 3? :P
Mitsukai_sama 03-22-07, 11:32 AM	Ahh, I seem to have misread your post. :] Mia culpa. My question to you then, would be, why is such a system justified when we already have SR? I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, I'm curious as to what your rationale is.
Stormonu 03-22-07, 12:19 PM	This was my own changes to DR in my campaign. I brought back the +1 to +5 requirements for magic items and had it also have an effect on spells. The italicized paragraph contains the majority of the changes: Damage Reduction (Variant Rules): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below. The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability. Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus. Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. In the case of magic damage reduction, a number follows. If the magic weapon does not have an enhancement bonus equal to or greater than the plus listed, it does not bypass damage reduction. Likewise, if the creature is attacked with damage-inflicting spells that are not of a spell level equal to or greater than the indicated plus, the creature gains its damage reduction against the attack. It should be noted that spells that deal energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic as well as negative energy and force spells) which normally bypass damage reduction will have their damage reduced if they are not of sufficient level to bypass the damage reduction. Likewise, the creature gains a +2 bonus to Spell Resistance (if any) per spell level below the minimum to bypass DR. Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature. When a damage reduction entry has a dash (–) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction. A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction. A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction. The alternate DR rules harkens back to previous editions of the rules, where many creatures required weapons with a certain magic bonus to be harmed. These rules seek to bring some of that quality back, as well as render creatures immune (above and beyond spell resistance) to certain low-level spells. If you choose to use the alternate DR rules listed above, you may desire to carry this ability over to creatures from other books. The conversion is quite simple – for every 4 CR, give the creature a +1. Thus, for example, a CR 8 creature that normally has DR 5/magic would have DR 5/magic +2. If you’re building your own monsters, we suggest the following CR 1/8 – 1 DR 2/magic +0 CR 5-8 DR 5/magic +2 CR 13-16 DR 10/magic +4 CR 1-4 DR 5/magic +1 CR 9-12 DR 10/magic +3 CR 17-20 DR 15/magic +5
xaqariah 03-22-07, 12:41 PM	Ahh, I seem to have misread your post. :] Mia culpa. My question to you then, would be, why is such a system justified when we already have SR? I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, I'm curious as to what your rationale is. My thoughts on this are: 1) Why should Magic Missile still damage the Wererat, when everyone else is running for the hills, to scrounge for silver weapons? 2) Fireball will wipe out a bunch of skeletons, at 5th Level, regardless of whether or not they make their saves, while the fighter has to dig through his pack to find a bludgeoning weapon (or just take the 5-damage hit on every attack) and the Rogue starts to cry, when he realizes he is going to be totally useless, except as a flanking partner. 3) Some creature with some mysterious DR pops up. Nobody knows what it takes to hurt the creature... BUT WAIT! Just have the Wizard throw a couple of lightning bolts at it, and we'll all be just peachy... Too many DR problems are solved by throwing any random Damaging Spell at them. SR is nice, but it comes into play only half of the time at best. My personal experience is that it is either way high, and spells are nearly useless, or it is so low, that rolling against the SR is just a formality... I have only rarely run into a balanced SR (as a DM AND a Player)...
xaqariah 03-22-07, 12:52 PM	Sorcerer/Wizard spell (evocation): Silver Shear, does 1d8/caster level in silver damage in a line, but only effects creatures with silver damage reduction. Cleric Spell: Adamant Will (abjuration), causes all supernatural and spell-like effects of creature touched that deal damage to count as adamantine for purposes of damage reduction and hardness for 10min/level Bard Spell: Fey Dread (enchantment), causes target to make a fortitude save or all effects count as cold iron in addition to other effects for purposes of damage reduction (effectively eliminating said damage reduction) There, 3 effects, 3 spell lists, 3 schools, 3 materials. Maybe have the spell level be 3? :P Nifty! :) I think these could be tweaked a bit, but the general ideas are sound. Personal suggestions: Silver Shear: Level 3: Deals 1d8 damage/Level (reflex save for half) in a line to creatures with DR/silver (as above)... Creatures without DR/silver take half damage (1/4 on a successful save). Adamant Will: Level 3: (as above) but duration is only rounds/Level (My opinion, is that the possibility of completely eliminating 20 points of any creature's DR, is at least as effective as Haste... even with a "Will negates"... this could be devastating against a high DR creature...) Fey Dread: Level 3: ok, cold iron isn't as common for good-aligned PCs to go up against, so this one might be good for a longer duration. As a combat spell, that effects a single creature, longer than minutes/level might be overkill... or maybe it hits an area, and is rounds/level...? Like I said, overall the spells are a neat idea, for an alternate DR rules-system, like this one. :D
hiryuu 03-22-07, 06:37 PM	My thoughts on this are: 1) Why should Magic Missile still damage the Wererat, when everyone else is running for the hills, to scrounge for silver weapons? If everyone else is running to the hills to get silver weapons, the DR is being overblown into something it isn't. It's like, what, 5 on a wererat? A 1st level fighter with a greatsword can overcome that with just his Strength bonus. 2) Fireball will wipe out a bunch of skeletons, at 5th Level, regardless of whether or not they make their saves, while the fighter has to dig through his pack to find a bludgeoning weapon (or just take the 5-damage hit on every attack) and the Rogue starts to cry, when he realizes he is going to be totally useless, except as a flanking partner. Rogues are useless against half the monster manual. It's always been that way. If that's a problem, fix the rogue, don't punish others. If the fighter has to dig through his pack to find a bludgeoning weapon, something's wrong. If the fighter can't afford a 5 damage hit to his damage (which is likely something like 2d6+6 without a power attack added in, if he's level 1), something's wrong. Also, somehow, the cleric has become mysteriously unable to turn the skeletons, vaporising large swaths of them with a d20 roll. 3) Some creature with some mysterious DR pops up. Nobody knows what it takes to hurt the creature... BUT WAIT! Just have the Wizard throw a couple of lightning bolts at it, and we'll all be just peachy... Unless it has electricity resistance, a good save, regeneration, fast healing, immunity...... Too many DR problems are solved by throwing any random Damaging Spell at them. Or someone who hits things with a weapon. Mage sdon't have to deal with DR, they have to deal with SR, and resistance (which is almost always higher than DR), and immunity. That's right, no 10-point-hit off your raging spirited charge power attack for yes damage, Gandomir, your damage spell is completely useless. Of course, if your wizards are slinging blasting spells and not dropping webs with stinking cloud over them or using walls to direct opponents, and none of the monsters you are using have any sort of resistances at all, I can see where you would have a problem.
xaqariah 03-23-07, 02:48 PM	Mage sdon't have to deal with DR, they have to deal with SR, and resistance (which is almost always higher than DR), and immunity. That's right, no 10-point-hit off your raging spirited charge power attack for yes damage, Gandomir, your damage spell is completely useless. Of course, if your wizards are slinging blasting spells and not dropping webs with stinking cloud over them or using walls to direct opponents, and none of the monsters you are using have any sort of resistances at all, I can see where you would have a problem. Actually, they have an Entangle/Stinking Cloud combo that is good exactly once a day. (with their current spell selection) They don't use walls. Nobody seems to like Power Attack, except as a stepping stone to other Feats. and I think they've given up on the idea of having a Rogue in the group, after losing two, when I was able to divide the front and rear ranks of the group... on two separate occasions... They just got done with a stretch of Demons (highest was a Vrock) along with Red and Blue Slaadi. (and some Undead support, and Howlers as pets...) When they ran into the were-rats, (much earlier) they ran into a combo group of a couple of Wererats, and I think about six dire rats. -The Fighter was able to hit them for 3-5 points of damage a round, with two attacks...(TWF) -The archer came in second, with a chance to hit for 1-3 a round while rapid-shooting. -If I would have let the spell-slingers cut through DR, like the rules say, then the weapon-people wouldn't have had a purpose to be there. As it was, those who were able to do even a little damage, DID end up taking care of the wererats, while the rest mopped up the dire rat support. One PC had to worry about lycanthropy, and nobody was looking very well, but the city marketplace was saved, and they immediately decided that silver weapons were something to invest in. So... maybe it is because my weapon people are gimping themselves... or maybe they only really have time to think about their characters once every two weeks, when we get together (jobs-n-life-n-stuff as opposed to dissecting the books and the math to realize their concepts are flawed...) So, yes, I'm holding back my casters, now, because I know they will pull ahead anyway, because that's just what they do. Anyway... I presented my rules... Thank you all for your thoughts both for, against and also for the questions. :D
Lindwyrm 03-23-07, 04:39 PM	Are you raising the CR to compensate for the fact that you are nerfing spell casters versus DR?