Threshold Spellcasting - Alternate spell points. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Threshold Spellcasting - Alternate spell points. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hierarch Leviticus
09-29-05, 01:36 PM To cast a spell, a mage gathers mana. This is a roll:

1d20 + (Ability modifier) + (Something level-ish)

Against a DC based on how long they spend gathering mana - they may gather more each round, as desired:

Free Action: DC 20
Move Action: DC 15
Standard Action: DC 10
Full-Round Action: DC 5

If they make the DC, they gather 1 mana. For each 5 points they beat it by, they gather 1 more Mana.

A mage can hold as much mana as they like, and carry it as long as they remain conscious, but must release all of their gathered mana in order to actively use any skill or make an attack roll (except where these things are used in casting a spell).

They can use this mana to cast any spell they know, with the following costs:

Level 1: 1 Mana
Level 2: 3 Mana
Level 3: 6 Mana
Level 4: 10 Mana
Level 5: 15 Mana
Level 6: 21 Mana
Level 7: 28 Mana
Level 8: 36 Mana
Level 9: 45 Mana

However, there is a price. Everytime a mage gathers (not uses, gathers) mana, they add the amount that they gather to a running total. This total reduces itself by (amount based on level that I don't know yet) once each day while the mage sleeps, and can go as high as (another odd number I don't know) before bad things start to happen.

Once a mage goes over (maximum gather), they start hiting thresholds.

THRESHOLD 1 (1-5 pts over max): The mage has made themself more attractive to magic, and suffers a penalty equal to their threshold number on all saves against magic.

THRESHOLD 2: (6-10 pts over max): The mage has begun to weaken their own body. They now suffer a penaly on all skill checks, ability checks, and attack rolls, equal to their threshold.

THRESHOLD 3: (11-15 pts over max): The mage has disrupted their ability to draw on magic; each time they gather magic after reaching this point, they take one point of damage for every point of mana they gather - a mage who reaches this point and passes it in the the midst of gathering mana does take the damage for each point that gethering attemt takes them over this mark.

THRESHOLD 4: (16-20 pts over max): The mage has now harmed their ability to channel magic outwards; each time they cast a spell after reaching this point, they take one point of damage for every point of mana they spend.

THRESHOLD 5: (21+ pts over max): The mage has now reached the point where magic will not serve them well. Each round (six seconds), they take one damage for each point of mana that they are holding.

Thoughts?
Lawrence
09-29-05, 01:49 PM Interesting concept! and once you figure out those missing numbers, probably easier to judge on some levels. ;) Otherwise I kinda like the idea. Is there still a limit on spells per day, or does this turn into a 'cast as long as you have the points for it' thing?

Also, Would sorcerers/bards have an easier time at it or not?
Hierarch Leviticus
09-29-05, 01:57 PM Interesting concept! and once you figure out those missing numbers, probably easier to judge on some levels. ;) Otherwise I kinda like the idea. Is there still a limit on spells per day, or does this turn into a 'cast as long as you have the points for it' thing?

Also, Would sorcerers/bards have an easier time at it or not?

Not sure about sorcerers / bards, as I'll probably be using this with my verb and noun magic, myself. But if it was used for regular classes, I would think each class would have access to different features like raising where they hit threshold, making the thresholds themselves larger, speeding up gathering, storing mana in your familiar while you do stuff, and so on - which would vary by class.
Lawrence
09-29-05, 02:12 PM I see, I see...well those are some good thoughts on options. I wish you luck on your system. :) and opinions and questions and etc, hehe.
Hierarch Leviticus
09-29-05, 06:25 PM Gather Bonus: Form my own system, you'll gather for each spellcast, and add (your Verb score, your Noun score, and your ability modifier) to the d20. For regular d20, I'm thinking that simply adding twice your caster level would suffice.

Daily Restoration: This is the amount you 'heal' from your spellcasting pool each day. I'm thinking of setting this at (Caster level times five).

Personal Threshold: The number that, if you go past it, you have problems... I think I'm going to set this mark at (Caster level, squared). Thus, thresholds would be:

Lvl.....Threshold
1st.......1
2nd.......4
3rd.......9
4th.......16
5th.......25
6th.......36
7th.......49
8th.......64
9th.......81
10th.....100
11th.....121
12th.....144
13th.....169
14th.....196
15th.....225
16th.....256
17th.....289
18th.....324
19th.....361
20th.....400

Again, Thoughts?
Lawrence
09-29-05, 08:02 PM Actually, I do have couple.

by you system, a 9th lvl spell costs 45 mana to cost.

If you try to gather mana, even if you do it at the longest rate. against a DC of 5...

presuming 18th lvl at least.

you would make

1d20 + ability mod + 36

So you would make probably 8 points at the lowest, or 12 points at the highest.

.... heh, I guess that's isn't too bad for charging for a 9th spell. take a couple rounds.

Did you decide you don't lose the points if you don't cast, or do you get a fresh pool, and then the option to charge if you want to conserve?
Hierarch Leviticus
09-29-05, 08:10 PM Did you decide you don't lose the points if you don't cast, or do you get a fresh pool, and then the option to charge if you want to conserve?

If you gather, the mana is 'lumped together' with any other mana you have gathered. All one pool.

The main reason a mage wouldn't walk around with a giant pile all day is that he must discard it to actively use a skill or attack, and even if he does discard it, it still counts against his Threshold.

But a mage might very well "charge up" in advance for a fight if he knew he wouldn't need skills before it started.
FlameLover
09-29-05, 08:21 PM I know you're doing that to stop them from starting with an ungodly amount of mana but i would ditch the whole "lost points if you make a skill check or attack" and just put a cap on their mana, level X ability modifier sounds about right to me. You'd have 2 to 5 max mana at first level and probably 200 by level 20.
Hierarch Leviticus
09-29-05, 08:30 PM I know you're doing that to stop them from starting with an ungodly amount of mana but i would ditch the whole "lost points if you make a skill check or attack" and just put a cap on their mana, level X ability modifier sounds about right to me. You'd have 2 to 5 max mana at first level and probably 200 by level 20.

Oddly, that's not why I'm doing it...

It's actually for the story reason of "You must be focused and channelling magic to use it." Much like 'Embracing the Source' in Wheel of Time, or similar such items.

However... is there a balance problem with doing it the way I have in mind that you can see?
FlameLover
09-29-05, 08:39 PM If you just want a whole "focusing up before casting" effect instead of "drawing in power" then i'd change it so that it takes a full-round to draw in energy always and you get a number of mana equal to your check result divided by 5. Same general power level but it fits the idea of powering up for each spell.

Unless i'm missing something then that sounds more like what you want. And ditch the ability to gain mana as a free action, it could be done every round in conjuction with other focusing techniques and so would net you free mana every round at high levels.

I'm liking this system though and i'm thinking of maybe mixing this with another idea i'm making which is a manaspring thing which would have seperate pools for each element and alignment (8 pools total). Keep working on this since i like what you've got so far!
Hierarch Leviticus
09-29-05, 08:41 PM Keep working on this since i like what you've got so far!

I expect I'll be starting a thread for unifying my whole magic system, as it develops, in a few days.

And you may be right about the actions...
Gilean
09-30-05, 09:30 AM Swift action instead of free is a good idea.
Thelon Fairblade
09-30-05, 09:38 AM Instead of making a skill check ("Okay everyone, make a Listen check to see if you're surprised...) just make maintaining mana the same as maintaining concentration on a spell - either a standard action every round, or a full-round action (allowing only a 5' step).
Gilean
09-30-05, 09:50 AM Instead of making a skill check ("Okay everyone, make a Listen check to see if you're surprised...) just make maintaining mana the same as maintaining concentration on a spell - either a standard action every round, or a full-round action (allowing only a 5' step).Now that it is mentioned, concentratng is a good mechanic. Should be used.
fnord
09-30-05, 04:58 PM Damage is not a good limit on spellcasting power. See my signature for why. When someone can heal with a spell, damage does not discourage them from spellcasting. Your system prevents someone like Medea from throwing Miracle+Quickened Heal every round, it still gives her ridiculous power.
THRESHOLD 2: (6-10 pts over max): The mage has begun to weaken their own body. They now suffer a penaly on all skill checks, ability checks, and attack rolls, equal to their threshold.
I would make this penalty apply to rolls to gather mana as well. That way, as spellcasters move past their Threshold limit, they find it increasingly difficult to gather more mana, limiting their spells per day in a more concrete fashion.
FlameLover
09-30-05, 05:53 PM Yes, changing the gathering amounts would be good. I'm actually thinking you should get 2 for move, 4 for standard and 6 for full-round. I'd also enforce the mana limit alot more like fnord said. Maybe at the first threshold decrease the mana gethered by one so it becomes 1 move, 3 standard and 5 full-round? Maybe even decrease it by one each time until at threshold 7 (or 6, not sure if you count the one where you suffer no ill-effects) even with a full-round you don't gather any mana. Working out the numbers would be tricky but make them slightly more than the standard Sorceror would get because when it's needed i would expect players to go over the limit they would normally.
moet324
10-05-05, 06:14 PM :bump: i realy like your idea its right nifty
RaspK FOG
10-06-05, 03:55 PM You should probably read Codex Mysterium; it has something along the lines you think (I have done something something based off of it, but this will have to wait).
jagggar
10-06-05, 10:56 PM What if for skill use you only have to ditch the mana if the skill takes an action other than a free-action?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hierarch Leviticus 09-29-05, 01:36 PM	To cast a spell, a mage gathers mana. This is a roll: 1d20 + (Ability modifier) + (Something level-ish) Against a DC based on how long they spend gathering mana - they may gather more each round, as desired: Free Action: DC 20 Move Action: DC 15 Standard Action: DC 10 Full-Round Action: DC 5 If they make the DC, they gather 1 mana. For each 5 points they beat it by, they gather 1 more Mana. A mage can hold as much mana as they like, and carry it as long as they remain conscious, but must release all of their gathered mana in order to actively use any skill or make an attack roll (except where these things are used in casting a spell). They can use this mana to cast any spell they know, with the following costs: Level 1: 1 Mana Level 2: 3 Mana Level 3: 6 Mana Level 4: 10 Mana Level 5: 15 Mana Level 6: 21 Mana Level 7: 28 Mana Level 8: 36 Mana Level 9: 45 Mana However, there is a price. Everytime a mage gathers (not uses, gathers) mana, they add the amount that they gather to a running total. This total reduces itself by (amount based on level that I don't know yet) once each day while the mage sleeps, and can go as high as (another odd number I don't know) before bad things start to happen. Once a mage goes over (maximum gather), they start hiting thresholds. THRESHOLD 1 (1-5 pts over max): The mage has made themself more attractive to magic, and suffers a penalty equal to their threshold number on all saves against magic. THRESHOLD 2: (6-10 pts over max): The mage has begun to weaken their own body. They now suffer a penaly on all skill checks, ability checks, and attack rolls, equal to their threshold. THRESHOLD 3: (11-15 pts over max): The mage has disrupted their ability to draw on magic; each time they gather magic after reaching this point, they take one point of damage for every point of mana they gather - a mage who reaches this point and passes it in the the midst of gathering mana does take the damage for each point that gethering attemt takes them over this mark. THRESHOLD 4: (16-20 pts over max): The mage has now harmed their ability to channel magic outwards; each time they cast a spell after reaching this point, they take one point of damage for every point of mana they spend. THRESHOLD 5: (21+ pts over max): The mage has now reached the point where magic will not serve them well. Each round (six seconds), they take one damage for each point of mana that they are holding. Thoughts?
Lawrence 09-29-05, 01:49 PM	Interesting concept! and once you figure out those missing numbers, probably easier to judge on some levels. ;) Otherwise I kinda like the idea. Is there still a limit on spells per day, or does this turn into a 'cast as long as you have the points for it' thing? Also, Would sorcerers/bards have an easier time at it or not?
Hierarch Leviticus 09-29-05, 01:57 PM	Interesting concept! and once you figure out those missing numbers, probably easier to judge on some levels. ;) Otherwise I kinda like the idea. Is there still a limit on spells per day, or does this turn into a 'cast as long as you have the points for it' thing? Also, Would sorcerers/bards have an easier time at it or not? Not sure about sorcerers / bards, as I'll probably be using this with my verb and noun magic, myself. But if it was used for regular classes, I would think each class would have access to different features like raising where they hit threshold, making the thresholds themselves larger, speeding up gathering, storing mana in your familiar while you do stuff, and so on - which would vary by class.
Lawrence 09-29-05, 02:12 PM	I see, I see...well those are some good thoughts on options. I wish you luck on your system. :) and opinions and questions and etc, hehe.
Hierarch Leviticus 09-29-05, 06:25 PM	Gather Bonus: Form my own system, you'll gather for each spellcast, and add (your Verb score, your Noun score, and your ability modifier) to the d20. For regular d20, I'm thinking that simply adding twice your caster level would suffice. Daily Restoration: This is the amount you 'heal' from your spellcasting pool each day. I'm thinking of setting this at (Caster level times five). Personal Threshold: The number that, if you go past it, you have problems... I think I'm going to set this mark at (Caster level, squared). Thus, thresholds would be: Lvl.....Threshold 1st.......1 2nd.......4 3rd.......9 4th.......16 5th.......25 6th.......36 7th.......49 8th.......64 9th.......81 10th.....100 11th.....121 12th.....144 13th.....169 14th.....196 15th.....225 16th.....256 17th.....289 18th.....324 19th.....361 20th.....400 Again, Thoughts?
Lawrence 09-29-05, 08:02 PM	Actually, I do have couple. by you system, a 9th lvl spell costs 45 mana to cost. If you try to gather mana, even if you do it at the longest rate. against a DC of 5... presuming 18th lvl at least. you would make 1d20 + ability mod + 36 So you would make probably 8 points at the lowest, or 12 points at the highest. .... heh, I guess that's isn't too bad for charging for a 9th spell. take a couple rounds. Did you decide you don't lose the points if you don't cast, or do you get a fresh pool, and then the option to charge if you want to conserve?
Hierarch Leviticus 09-29-05, 08:10 PM	Did you decide you don't lose the points if you don't cast, or do you get a fresh pool, and then the option to charge if you want to conserve? If you gather, the mana is 'lumped together' with any other mana you have gathered. All one pool. The main reason a mage wouldn't walk around with a giant pile all day is that he must discard it to actively use a skill or attack, and even if he does discard it, it still counts against his Threshold. But a mage might very well "charge up" in advance for a fight if he knew he wouldn't need skills before it started.
FlameLover 09-29-05, 08:21 PM	I know you're doing that to stop them from starting with an ungodly amount of mana but i would ditch the whole "lost points if you make a skill check or attack" and just put a cap on their mana, level X ability modifier sounds about right to me. You'd have 2 to 5 max mana at first level and probably 200 by level 20.
Hierarch Leviticus 09-29-05, 08:30 PM	I know you're doing that to stop them from starting with an ungodly amount of mana but i would ditch the whole "lost points if you make a skill check or attack" and just put a cap on their mana, level X ability modifier sounds about right to me. You'd have 2 to 5 max mana at first level and probably 200 by level 20. Oddly, that's not why I'm doing it... It's actually for the story reason of "You must be focused and channelling magic to use it." Much like 'Embracing the Source' in Wheel of Time, or similar such items. However... is there a balance problem with doing it the way I have in mind that you can see?
FlameLover 09-29-05, 08:39 PM	If you just want a whole "focusing up before casting" effect instead of "drawing in power" then i'd change it so that it takes a full-round to draw in energy always and you get a number of mana equal to your check result divided by 5. Same general power level but it fits the idea of powering up for each spell. Unless i'm missing something then that sounds more like what you want. And ditch the ability to gain mana as a free action, it could be done every round in conjuction with other focusing techniques and so would net you free mana every round at high levels. I'm liking this system though and i'm thinking of maybe mixing this with another idea i'm making which is a manaspring thing which would have seperate pools for each element and alignment (8 pools total). Keep working on this since i like what you've got so far!
Hierarch Leviticus 09-29-05, 08:41 PM	Keep working on this since i like what you've got so far! I expect I'll be starting a thread for unifying my whole magic system, as it develops, in a few days. And you may be right about the actions...
Gilean 09-30-05, 09:30 AM	Swift action instead of free is a good idea.
Thelon Fairblade 09-30-05, 09:38 AM	Instead of making a skill check ("Okay everyone, make a Listen check to see if you're surprised...) just make maintaining mana the same as maintaining concentration on a spell - either a standard action every round, or a full-round action (allowing only a 5' step).
Gilean 09-30-05, 09:50 AM	Instead of making a skill check ("Okay everyone, make a Listen check to see if you're surprised...) just make maintaining mana the same as maintaining concentration on a spell - either a standard action every round, or a full-round action (allowing only a 5' step).Now that it is mentioned, concentratng is a good mechanic. Should be used.
fnord 09-30-05, 04:58 PM	Damage is not a good limit on spellcasting power. See my signature for why. When someone can heal with a spell, damage does not discourage them from spellcasting. Your system prevents someone like Medea from throwing Miracle+Quickened Heal every round, it still gives her ridiculous power. THRESHOLD 2: (6-10 pts over max): The mage has begun to weaken their own body. They now suffer a penaly on all skill checks, ability checks, and attack rolls, equal to their threshold. I would make this penalty apply to rolls to gather mana as well. That way, as spellcasters move past their Threshold limit, they find it increasingly difficult to gather more mana, limiting their spells per day in a more concrete fashion.
FlameLover 09-30-05, 05:53 PM	Yes, changing the gathering amounts would be good. I'm actually thinking you should get 2 for move, 4 for standard and 6 for full-round. I'd also enforce the mana limit alot more like fnord said. Maybe at the first threshold decrease the mana gethered by one so it becomes 1 move, 3 standard and 5 full-round? Maybe even decrease it by one each time until at threshold 7 (or 6, not sure if you count the one where you suffer no ill-effects) even with a full-round you don't gather any mana. Working out the numbers would be tricky but make them slightly more than the standard Sorceror would get because when it's needed i would expect players to go over the limit they would normally.
moet324 10-05-05, 06:14 PM	:bump: i realy like your idea its right nifty
RaspK FOG 10-06-05, 03:55 PM	You should probably read Codex Mysterium; it has something along the lines you think (I have done something something based off of it, but this will have to wait).
jagggar 10-06-05, 10:56 PM	What if for skill use you only have to ditch the mana if the skill takes an action other than a free-action?