Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 03-29-04, 01:12 AM	Comparing a Dexed based Thug to a Dexed based Fighter, one can understand why one would remove the feat at first level; loosing one's medium and heavy armor proficiencies is no loss for the dex based fighter. But compare a level one Thug to the first level of the other warrior classes, and you will see that the level 1 thug is very, very weak. I feel that this shows an inherrent inbalance in the fighter in general, but I don't know how one would go about fixing this issue. Any ideas?
Bard-of-all-trades 03-30-04, 10:20 AM	Where do you find the Thug: Fighter variant? I'm not sure I understand the question.
Soulmage 03-30-04, 10:49 AM	Where do you find the thug? --> What forum group are you in? lol Anyway, I've been tinkering with the thug to make it into a balanced class. However, I just can't find a "niche" for this class. Everything I have seen or have come up with really lies inside the realm of the figher/rogue multiclass. You shouldn't use a core class that just replicates a multiclass, IMO. So despite my attraction to the idea, I'm probably just going to drop it.
silarrow 03-31-04, 07:06 PM	You should never ask the question "Is varient class a too weak" Varient classes arn't supposed to be more powerful (or even as powerful) as the original, their just supposed to offer more options. It's quite easy to say the battle sorcerer, many of the specialty school wizards, and many of the other varient classes are weaker (of course all opinionated), but people still play them to make their charcter how they invision them.
GMSteve 03-31-04, 07:46 PM	Similar to the other message I just replied to - I think it is better to use the variant where the rogue gets the fighter feat instead of sneak attack to create the "the dexterous fighter". Essientially if you want a fencing type of character just take weapon focus instead of sneak attack at first level with your weapon of choice. Best Regards,
Xeviat-DM 04-01-04, 05:01 AM	GMSteve, the number one reason I'm asking about the Thug varient is because I also enjoy the feat rogue varient (I've also incorperated the wilderness rogue varient into my rogue class in general; mainly because my ranger is the PrC and it makes it more linear to get into). A player of mine is striving for Duelist, and being able to be Thug4/Feat Rogue4 is more fitting of her character than Feat Rogue8. I personally don't think it's wrong to grant the 2 extra skill points and 4 extra class skills to the fighter for forgoing shields, medium, heavy, and tower shield proficiencies. Granted, they can still use MW bucklers, mw light shields, or mithril heavy shields with no problems. PS: I re-read the varient for the rogue and fighter involving sneak attack and bonus feats. It does say "(as rogue)" and "(as fighter)", leading me to believe that it is giving up 10d6 sneak attack for 11 bonus feats, or giving up 11 bonus feats for 10d6 sneak attack. Nice! (one of my players is going to love this).
Count Arioch the 28th 04-01-04, 08:15 PM	I think that the thug variant is sub-par, in my opinion. Granted, variants aren't supposed to be more powerful, but they aren't supposed to be weaker than the class they are copying, either. I say, replace the Thug's feats with 1d6 sneak attack damage. That makes is viable, in my opinion.
bitnine 04-01-04, 09:26 PM	I was a little underwhelmed by the thug myself. I would more than likely add something were I to use it in a game.
GMSteve 04-02-04, 12:15 AM	I actually think one of the best ways to improve the thug is to make some custom abilities. Here are some of my personal favs (note these may be duplicating some of what is already out there by others - but I find the number of variants on the light fighter so overwhelming that I get them confused often times - so apologies for not siting sources). Option1 - The Pugalist Add the following abilities 1st Level Boxing - Gain 1d6 Unarmed Attack Damage - Must have both hands free to use effectively. Essientially using major punches and a series of jabs to the attack. Quick on your Feat 1st, 5th, 9th, etc. Add +1 to initative score Duck and Dive - always ready for a fight - at 3rd Level you always have your dex modifer for AC purposes - but can still be considered flatfooted for purpose of sneak attack, etc. Duck and Dive - 7th Level - Make a reflex save vs. the attack roll. If you succedd then you are not considered flatfooted - but if you are hit then you still take damage. But cancels other effects of being flatfooted - such as the rogue sneak attack. Duck and Dive - 13th Level - Never Considered Flatfooted. Option 2 - The Light Figther - Simple Version Same as Thug - but each level gain +1 to Armor Class provided that you are not using a sheild or wearing medium or heavier armor. The Maximum you can get is equal to your intelligence modifer. Option 3 - The Light Fighter - Swordsmen/Fencer Version HP D8 Gain +1 to Armor class every other level provided that you are not using a sheild or wearing medium or heavier armor. The maximum you can get is equal to your intelligence modifer. 3rd Level Fencing Flurry - Provided you are using a light single handed bladed (fencing) weapon - You gain a flurry strike similar to monk abilites. You must have weapon focus for that weapon. Pick a single weapon at 3rd Level. Every three levels pick an additional weapon. If you flurry - you give up all AOO that round. Also you need your other hand free to effectively flurry - so no bucklers or sheilds. Or Combine any of the above - I have like 20 different variants for the various SpellJammer/Pirate/Swashbuckling Games that I like. Notice the above all removes the shield. I never like the MW option for getting out of Armor Penalties - so if I don't think the class should have a shield then I nerf the abilities if they use a sheild. I have some more developed ones used in my Adult Venice Like Game. They have some additional powers ;) GM Steve