Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Servant_of_Metal 01-08-07, 12:37 PM	Having read through the Tome of Battle recently I got the idea of changing the spellcasting system for the normal caster classes to something along the lines of the maneuver system. The main point is, I'm not content with the situation of spellcasters being able to cast their spells only x times per day. What I want to ask for in this thread is a opinion on this system and if it changes spellcasting in an abusive way. So here it is: Spells per day, spells known and "reserve slots": using this system [or variant] every caster has a number of spells known, spells readied and "reserve slots" [a better name would be useful] per level. Spells Known and Spells Readied function like the normal Maneuvers Known and Maneuvers Readied mechanics introduced in ToB, with the fine difference that for the spellcasters their normal spell list is used. Now, the "reserve slots" are a bit trickier. They offer two possible uses to the caster: Persistant Spell: On casting a spell with a duration other than instanteous the caster may fill up a "reserve slot" to make the spell last until the caster either chooses to dismiss it as a free action and emptying the reserve slot or becomes unconscious. Metamagic Feat: A caster may fill up a number of reserve slots equal to the spell slot adjustment of a metamagic feat to use this metamagic feat on any readied spell once as a swift action. After using the metamagic feat on a spell the slots filled with the feat are empty and can be used again. Besides those changes everything works as normal for the casters. Progressions: Wizard: Spells Known: Swordsage Maneuvers Known Spells Readied: Warblade Maneuvers Readied Recovery: As Swordsage, but regaining 2 spells not just 1 Resereve Slots: As Swordsage Stances Max. Spell Level: (wiz level * 2) - 1 Sorcerer: Spells Known: Warblade Maneuvers Known Spells Readied: Swordsage Maneuvers Readied Recovery: As Swordsage Reserve Slots: As Swordsage Stances Max. Spell Level: (sor level * 2) / 2, rounded up Cleric & Druid: Spells Known: CrusaderManeuvers Known Spells Readied: Crusader Maneuvers Readied Recovery: As Crusader Reserve Slots: As Crusader Max. Spell Level: (level * 2) - 1 I am not sure about Paladin and Ranger yet, but I tend to give them the Crusader Progressions and Bard is also a problem. So far that's the concept I have in mind. Any ideas for further improving the system and questions are highly appreciated. [If there are any english-mistakes I would be very thankful to you for pointing them out as english is not my native language]
Ra-Tiel 01-08-07, 03:07 PM	Have you considered using the Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) variant presented in Unearthed Arcana? From what I can tell it would basically net the same result: casters slinging their spells [almost] all day long. But you wouldn't have to balance it out for yourself (assuming you trust WotC's balancing enough on this ;) ).
Servant_of_Metal 01-08-07, 03:43 PM	I already considered that variant [Unearthed Arcana is one of those books fully worth their price:) ] but the problem I have with it is that the number of rounds left until the spell level is usable again has to be tracked again... And especially in combat my group and I don't want to bother with that too Besides that there is a big difference: All spellcasters know less spells. And by less I mean less, e.g. a sorcerer under this system has 13 known spells at level 20 and 12 which he can ready. That should balance it out imo but I hadn't got the opportunity to test the system yet
Sphyre 01-10-07, 03:43 AM	Sorcerer: Spells Known: Warblade Maneuvers Known Spells Readied: Swordsage Maneuvers Readied Recovery: As Swordsage Reserve Slots: As Swordsage Stances Max. Spell Level: (sor level * 2) / 2, rounded up What's with that crazy formula? (2x)/2 = x This means the max spell level known is always the level of sorcerer. So basically at 9th level, sorcerers can cast 9th level spells. I assume you meant something other than a meaningless formula? I certainly think that the loss of "spontaneous" casting certainly merits the loss of the staggered spells known that they have. So I just wonder... what did you intend for the sorcerer formula to be?
Servant_of_Metal 01-10-07, 12:47 PM	ahh, sorry for the strange formula...I was pretty tired when I wrote that Just wanted to say that the Max Spell level for a sorcerer is not the same as wizard's or ToB classes but the normal sorcerer's
fatal error 01-10-07, 01:20 PM	ahh, sorry for the strange formula...I was pretty tired when I wrote that Just wanted to say that the Max Spell level for a sorcerer is not the same as wizard's or ToB classes but the normal sorcerer's Why? There's no real reason for it. Your formulas should look like this: Wizard: (Wizard Level)/2 Rounded Up, or (Wizard Level +1)/2 Rounded Down. Why does the sorcerer get a just plain worse recovery method than the wizard? Shouldn't they pay for their swordsage spells readied by having warblade spells known? If anything, I'd think a sorcerer would have a better recovery system than a wizard, not the other way around. Are metamagic feats "readied" in your reserve slots, or do you just have to have enough reserve slots open for their use? If the latter, then you'll be constantly casting metamagic'd spells. If the former, why wouldn't I fill up my slots with metamagic feats and then just burn them when I need a persistent spell? Why are all spells persisted the same? I dare say Divine Power (1 round/level) is more powerful than Greater Magic Weapon (1 hour/level), yet I can keep either up at the same cost?
Sphyre 01-10-07, 03:54 PM	Yeah. There's no real reason to make the sorcerer gimpy gimpy. They got screwed on their spell progression because WotC thought spontaneous casting would be too powerful. Now you're taking that away, so why should they get gimped progression now? Give me one good reason why sorcerers should get a gimped progression over the wizard? And no, it's not a sacred cow either. That's not a reason. The sorcerer has been sucky from day one. It doesn't need to be the red-headed step child of D&D
Neocon 01-10-07, 04:33 PM	If there is no spontaneous casting, then what's the point of having the sorcerer class at all? At that point its just flavor. I have run into the same thing implementing the spell point system in UA. Works great, but completely eliminates the need for a sorcerer class.
fatal error 01-11-07, 12:05 AM	If there is no spontaneous casting, then what's the point of having the sorcerer class at all? At that point its just flavor. I have run into the same thing implementing the spell point system in UA. Works great, but completely eliminates the need for a sorcerer class. Well, in this case the sorcerer is getting fewer spells known and more readied, if you looked. So, there is a difference, it's just an even fainter one.
Sphyre 01-11-07, 02:35 AM	Well, in this case the sorcerer is getting fewer spells known and more readied, if you looked. So, there is a difference, it's just an even fainter one. yeah. It still kind of lends itself to inborn power and natural talent than bookwormy.
zae 01-11-07, 03:55 AM	So the difference is even smaller. Which means there shouldn't be the staggered progression. Well, there shouldn't have been in the first place, but this leaves no question. As for the balance, it's hard to say. Seeing as casters tend to not actually run out of spells per day after a certain level anyway, I doubt this is going to be too big a deal. It means there's a reason to take more than one damage spell, I suppose, and generally makes casters sweat over their choices.
Shado 01-24-07, 01:15 PM	I haven't seen anyone comment on it yet on the boards anywhere (in terms of actually trying it out) but there's already a pseudo ToB spellcasting system. In the adaptation section of the Swordsage, it mentions turning the class into a caster. Stats a a Swordsage, but drop hit die down to d6, lose armor prof., maneuvers known becomes spells known, maneuvers readied becomes spells readied. Now, there's no mention of stances in this transformation (I would assumed they are just lost all together) or how metamagic works for the spellcasting Swordsage. Issues possibly pop up from maneuver related feats (adaptive style applied to spells gets a little crazy). So, while it's not fleshed out, it's there, and not to far from what your working toward. Should be a good point of reference. One note, they do suggest trimming down the spell list to just a few schools. That may be a flavor point, but could be for balance as well.
FeceMan 01-24-07, 03:14 PM	Erm... I'm not sure about the "max spell level" thing, but, instead of "spells readied," I would change it to "spell levels readied." This way, a character could ready a few, powerful spells or he could prepare a ton of magic missiles. You need to explain the persistent spell thing more clearly.
Xylem 01-24-07, 03:20 PM	I haven't seen anyone comment on it yet on the boards anywhere (in terms of actually trying it out) but there's already a pseudo ToB spellcasting system. In the adaptation section of the Swordsage, it mentions turning the class into a caster. Stats a a Swordsage, but drop hit die down to d6, lose armor prof., maneuvers known becomes spells known, maneuvers readied becomes spells readied. Now, there's no mention of stances in this transformation (I would assumed they are just lost all together) or how metamagic works for the spellcasting Swordsage. Issues possibly pop up from maneuver related feats (adaptive style applied to spells gets a little crazy). So, while it's not fleshed out, it's there, and not to far from what your working toward. Should be a good point of reference. One note, they do suggest trimming down the spell list to just a few schools. That may be a flavor point, but could be for balance as well. There was a long thread about it on the Classes board around the time of the last board change-over. The conclusion was that you had to be very careful about the spell list, otherwise you could get infinite buffs, Walls of Stone, etc., outside of battle. Or even in battle a fireball every other round forever (consider that in a field battle or naval action).
Xeviat-DM 02-07-07, 02:06 AM	I'm currious to get this started again. I've been analyzing the damage dice mechanic in ToB, and it tends to follow a simple progression: Maneuvers which only deal damage (they're few and far between) tend to deal a number of dice equal to twice the maneuver's level. Maneuvers which deal damage in addition to a secondary effect tend to deal a number of dice equal to the maneuver's level. This is very nice, since it practically lines up with spell damages of 1 die per caster level or 1 die per two caster levels. Effects which don't harm or hinder the opponent in some way would be difficult to address. One way I think they could be addressed is changing the nature of many buffs. For instance, instead of the charm person spell making the target friendly on a failed will save, it grants a Diplomacy bonus of 1 per caster level, or 2 per caster level. Using existing mechanics could make things easier to manipulate. Stances would have to be dropped for the casters. Defensive spells and passive spells would really need to be adressed though. If you guys are still interested, I'd really like to discuss this. It could prove very interesting indeed.
Lord_Tirian 02-07-07, 11:39 PM	Stances would have to be dropped for the casters. Defensive spells and passive spells would really need to be adressed though. I think the best approach to this is looking at everything that's non-instantaneous and convert it into simple forms with a certain level. Then you get some kind of "stances", or rather "maintained magic pool", and each spell has its maintenance cost (independent from spell level, rather connected to the duration, allowing you to "stance" one or two 1 round/level spells, or having a bunch of 1 minute/level or 1 h/level spells on at once) Problem: It's a huge project, and I don't have enough insight into all the intricacies of the D&D system beyond the "traditional" spellcasting, i.e. I've got no real comparison for such a "per-encounter"-model. But I really like the idea.
Xeviat-DM 02-07-07, 11:54 PM	Well, one way of handling things would be to drastically reduce the number of spells. Rather than trying to attempt to convert all of the spells, the project could be simplified by doing this: Wizard/Sorcerer: Create 8 schools (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation). To keep them similar to the others, they would also get 4 types of spells: effects which hinder opponents (like strikes), effects which improve their abilities (like boosts), reactive spells (like counters), and some type of maintained powers (like stances). Perhaps stances could be adressed like metamagic, rather than like long term spells, or stances could allow a wizard/sorcerer to "cast" a simple spell constantly (like reserve feats). Actually, I like that idea, treating stances like reserve feats. They could improve certain capabilities and give you a minor supernatural ability. Clerics: Create a number of domains, obviously hitting up all of the ones in the PHB. Each would get the same number of abilities as the arcane schools. Maintaining domain specialization would be difficult, but there could be many ways to do it (perhaps like the Ardent in Complete Psionics, choosing 2 domains at first level, and gaining access to new domains every 5 levels). They'd follow the same style as the wizard. I'm only worried about the healing spells, but healing could easily be religated to skills (and healing boosts would give you a bonus to heal checks). Of course, we could be classic and make a basic cleric list, then have the domains chosen just like in the PHB. Druids: For the most part, I think they'd use the same domains as clerics, except they'd only have access to animal, plant, fire, air, water, and earth. One way of keeping longer duration spells from getting out of control would be to mimic the refresh mechanic in Unearthed Arcana. For instance, if a particular boost lasts for 1 hour per level, one couldn't refresh it until the previous duration expired. But I think long term spells (more than 1 round per level) would need to be relegated to stance abilities. So, any ideas? We could probably copy some of the simplicities of the XPH for spell design. I'm willing to put some time into this; anyone willing to join in?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-08-07, 12:09 AM	I'm willing to help. I've thought about a magic system similar to maneuvers as soon as ToB came out. Also, I am completely in favor of not trying to convert every spell. Focus on what's important first. We may even find a few spells lacking and wish to invent some for our purposes.
Lord_Tirian 02-08-07, 12:24 AM	--Personally, I'm of course willing to help, how helpful my help will be, is another thing... The splitting into schools/domains with basic spells is certain true and good. After all, many PHB spells are variations or spells of a chain. It shouldn't be that hard to unify it a bit. I've got a (very rough) idea: The reserve feats give a good measure of power a spellcaster should have... so, what about this: A spellcaster has a "what-ever-stat", tied to his class, let's name it "mana" (while it is overused, it may be neat here, because it's short and simple). This mana determines the power of his "Strikes" and "Counters", while the "Stances" are using up mana, while active... Quick example: ZappingAll, our 9th-level mage has a mana of 5. He uses 1 mana to maintain his "mage armour" and three to keep his "fly", meaning he has one mana left. Now he encounters an enemy, and uses his "zap"-"Strike". Since he has only 1 mana, it only deals 2 dice of damage... he ZappingAll sees he gets problems, and drops both "stances" - therefore he has all 5 mana ready again, and zaps his foe with a 10-dice damage spell. Then he encounters a group of foes. He casts his Area-"Boost", investing, let's say, 2 mana. Then - with 3 mana available, he casts "zap" again, but now augmented with the ongoing area-"boost", thus he deals 6-dice, but due to the area boost in a line/burst/cone/whatever. ___________________________ Now, that's very different from the ToB approach, but it preserves the dynamic of the [Reserve].mechanic, albeit on a different level: Ongoing spells restrict your power, or you can expend more power, but giving up the ongoing power. Of course, all numbers are mere examples, and are based on the current spell level system, so they should be changed... and balanced. Probably a lot. (But seeing the numbers above, it doesn't look that out of whack, compared with Warlocks/ToB/Reserve feats, meaning it could be workable)
fatal error 02-08-07, 12:28 AM	--Personally, I'm of course willing to help, how helpful my help will be, is another thing... The splitting into schools/domains with basic spells is certain true and good. After all, many PHB spells are variations or spells of a chain. It shouldn't be that hard to unify it a bit. I've got a (very rough) idea: The reserve feats give a good measure of power a spellcaster should have... so, what about this: A spellcaster has a "what-ever-stat", tied to his class, let's name it "mana" (while it is overused, it may be neat here, because it's short and simple). This mana determines the power of his "Strikes" and "Counters", while the "Stances" are using up mana, while active... Quick example: ZappingAll, our 9th-level mage has a mana of 5. He uses 1 mana to maintain his "mage armour" and three to keep his "fly", meaning he has one mana left. Now he encounters an enemy, and uses his "zap"-"Strike". Since he has only 1 mana, it only deals 2 dice of damage... he ZappingAll sees he gets problems, and drops both "stances" - therefore he has all 5 mana ready again, and zaps his foe with a 10-dice damage spell. Then he encounters a group of foes. He casts his Area-"Boost", investing, let's say, 2 mana. Then - with 3 mana available, he casts "zap" again, but now augmented with the ongoing area-"boost", thus he deals 6-dice, but due to the area boost in a line/burst/cone/whatever. ___________________________ Now, that's very different from the ToB approach, but it preserves the dynamic of the [Reserve].mechanic, albeit on a different level: Ongoing spells restrict your power, or you can expend more power, but giving up the ongoing power. Of course, all numbers are mere examples, and are based on the current spell level system, so they should be changed... and balanced. Probably a lot. (But seeing the numbers above, it doesn't look that out of whack, compared with Warlocks/ToB/Reserve feats, meaning it could be workable) Yes, something very similar to this was proposed on the Iron Heroes forums. You would have a pool of mana, and thus how much magic you could be using at one time was limited by that pool. With this, I think you'd want to go with anything that has a duration having a continual drain, be it Acid Arrow, Charm, Mage Armor, or Grease. Not that these exact spells would exist, but rather that spells with similar mechanics to these should all continue to take mana while their duration ticks by. And, since maintaining them costs mana, their durations should be essentially infinite.
Lord_Tirian 02-08-07, 12:36 AM	Yes, something very similar to this was proposed on the Iron Heroes forums. You would have a pool of mana, and thus how much magic you could be using at one time was limited by that pool. With this, I think you'd want to go with anything that has a duration having a continual drain, be it Acid Arrow, Charm, Mage Armor, or Grease. Not that these exact spells would exist, but rather that spells with similar mechanics to these should all continue to take mana while their duration ticks by. And, since maintaining them costs mana, their durations should be essentially infinite. Were these ideas influenced by Monte's essay 'bout Magic? ;) ...perhaps I've unconsciously dug up some stuff from there (I haven't looked on the Iron Heroes boards for ages)... but it brings me to another addition to my ideas: Spells with Escalating Mana-Use - i.e. first they use 1, then 2, then 3 and so on, perhaps an idea to keep the 1 round/level spells in check: They need additional invested mana each round, or collapse - and certain "boosts" (the equivalent to persistant metamagic) for let's say 4 mana or so can stop/slow the mana investment escalation. EDIT: There are a number of spells, that really screw up with unlimited access: Like: Healing and Long-Range Teleportation. I'd hate to throw the streamlining out of the window by giving them "recharge"-times. So a quick idea: Make them less reliable... Healing? I don't know yet. Teleport? Increase the error chance, heck, make a caster level check or something, therefore making teleport-happiness dangerous. Or increase casting time (bad, because loss of combat use)... or difficulty reciprocal to casting time.
Lord_Tirian 02-08-07, 07:31 PM	Hmmm... a bit double posty, but I've produced some material since my last post, and I think it is different enough to justify another post: Four kinds of spells: Invocation: These spells have an instantaneous effect on the target or the area. The effect depends on your available mana. Counter: These spells are used to negate another effect. They are usually used reactively, and have an Immediate action as casting time. The effect is tied to your available mana. Enspellment: These effects usually have a longer lasting effect on the target or the area, but you have either concentrate on them, or have to allocate an ever increasing about of your mana to them. Boon: These effects have a constant effect on the target, but need you have you allocate a part of your mana to them. Rules concerning mana: Spell Level: Your class level determines your maximum spell level. These spell levels are used for the calculation of spell effects, as well as calculation of saving throw-DCs. Mana: You mana pool is a constant number, determining your mystical potency. It is innately tied to your class level, and determines the power of your spell, and also restricts the spells you can cast, as certain spells have a mana prerequisite to cast them. Spells Readied: To cast a spell, you must have it readied. A readied spell is hold in your mind, finished, but not activated. Your class determines your way of readying a spell. Readying Spells: Bard: A bard regains spells by performing a standard action. Cleric: A cleric has to pray silently as a full-round action to regain a spell. Druid: A druid has to enter a trance as a full-round action to regain a spell. Sorcerer: A sorcerer has a small innate number of spells and needs a standard action to ready it. Wizard: A wizard uses a full-round action to read up a spell formula from his spellbook, memorizing it as a readied spell. Bard Level Spells Readied Max. Level Spells Known Mana 1 1 0 2 1 2 1 1 3 1 3 2 1 3 1 4 2 1 4 2 5 2 2 5 2 6 2 2 5 2 7 3 2 6 3 8 3 3 7 3 9 3 3 7 3 10 3 3 8 4 11 4 4 9 4 12 4 4 9 4 13 4 4 10 5 14 4 5 11 5 15 5 5 11 5 16 5 5 12 6 17 5 6 13 6 18 5 6 13 6 19 6 6 14 7 20 6 6 15 7 Cleric, Druid & Wizard Level Spells Readied Max. Level Mana 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 3 2 2 2 4 2 2 2 5 3 3 3 6 3 3 3 7 3 4 4 8 4 4 4 9 4 5 5 10 4 5 5 11 5 6 6 12 5 6 6 13 5 7 7 14 6 7 7 15 6 8 8 16 6 8 8 17 7 9 9 18 7 9 9 19 7 9 10 20 8 9 10 Sorcerer Level Spells Readied Max. Level Spells Known Mana 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 1 3 1 3 3 1 4 2 4 3 2 5 2 5 4 2 6 3 6 4 3 7 3 7 4 3 8 4 8 5 4 9 4 9 5 4 10 5 10 5 5 11 5 11 6 5 12 6 12 6 6 13 6 13 6 6 14 7 14 7 7 15 7 15 7 7 16 8 16 7 8 17 8 17 8 8 18 9 18 8 9 19 9 19 8 9 20 10 20 9 9 21 10 Multiclassing: When your multiclass, your spellcasting suffers, but grants you new flexibility. When your multiclass, add your total mana together. You also add your readied spells together, but your track your access to spells for each class separately: You use the value of the table of your class for a level equal (your class level + ½ other levels/HD). The interesting thing is - using these multiclass rules, we get very similar progressions to the Mystic Theurge, and the other combined spellcasters - at least concerning spell levels. It is, of course, inspired by the Bo9S martial adept system, and gives this very nice progression, that matches our "current" system, so I'm happy with the first numbers. ________________________________________ ________ EDIT & ADDITION: Aside from problematic spells, like healing and similar spells, this system could probably work with the standard spells, using these guidelines. Personally, I prefer new spells, balanced for this system (i.e. a full-fledged conversion), but here are some quick-and-dirty ideas: Invocations: All instantaneous, permanent spells, as well as spells with a fixed duration are invocations, using mana x2 as effective caster level. Enspellment: All spells with a duration of Concentration and/or 1 round/level or less are Enspellments. To use them, you have to allocate mana equal to the spell level to the spell Starting with your next turn, you must Concentrate as a standard action OR allocate an additional mana to the spell, otherwise it ends. Boons: Basically all spells with a duration of 1 minute/level or higher. They remain active, as long as you have allocated mana equal the spell level to it.
Xylem 02-08-07, 08:02 PM	EDIT: There are a number of spells, that really screw up with unlimited access: Like: Healing and Long-Range Teleportation. I'd hate to throw the streamlining out of the window by giving them "recharge"-times. So a quick idea: Make them less reliable... Healing? I don't know yet. Teleport? Increase the error chance, heck, make a caster level check or something, therefore making teleport-happiness dangerous. Or increase casting time (bad, because loss of combat use)... or difficulty reciprocal to casting time. A classic approach here is to require skill checks. There are issues with this, of course (consider the whole Truenamer issue). But a healing spell that requires a skill check is still going to be a done deal outside of combat -- it'll just take a bit longer. A healing spell that caps at a certain amount healed per day would avoid this problem, but it would also be an awkward mix with per encounter abilities. Interesting problem!
Lord_Tirian 02-08-07, 08:09 PM	A classic approach here is to require skill checks. There are issues with this, of course (consider the whole Truenamer issue). But a healing spell that requires a skill check is still going to be a done deal outside of combat -- it'll just take a bit longer. A healing spell that caps at a certain amount healed per day would avoid this problem, but it would also be an awkward mix with per encounter abilities. Interesting problem! Hmm... skill checks are kinda awkward, since it would stop out-of-combat full healing by annoy the players! ;) I've also thought of a "Healing Pool", like 20 hp/level, and all healing spells just channel this pool (with different speed)... and the Crusader mechanic is just stupid (at least from my point of view). Currently, my concept is combat-capped healing: Using a spell with increasing mana cost (thus you can only use it a couple of rounds, usually Concentration + 1 Round/2 levels [since escalating mana would be one additional mana per round]), and it can only heal wounds dealt within the duration of the spell... or something like this. On the other hand, using this system is a switch from per day to per encounter, and the fighting classes are already "always-on", so... perhaps roll with perma-max HP? (But I certainly don't like this solution at all). EDIT: Added some Quick&Dirty spell conversion rules to my last post.
Xeviat-DM 02-08-07, 08:30 PM	I'm not certain I like the Mana idea that's being presented here. It is adding complexity that I don't think is really necessary for this system. The point of using ToB as a model is that all a player has to worry about is what spells they know, how many they can ready/which spells they have readied, and how to regain spent spells. If we want to limit certain spells, we could do what True20 has done, and have a Fatigue discriptor on certain spells. Casting a fatigue spell requires you to make a will save, and if you fail it you are fatigued (or exhausted if you already were fatigued, or unconscious if you already were exhausted). Casting multiple fatigue spells imposes a penalty on further will saves to resist fatigue. This would limit spells (like healing and teleportation spells), and would remain within the flavor of the game. I do like the idea of invocations, counters, enspellments, and boons, though; good names.
Lord_Tirian 02-08-07, 08:42 PM	I'm not certain I like the Mana idea that's being presented here. It is adding complexity that I don't think is really necessary for this system. The point of using ToB as a model is that all a player has to worry about is what spells they know, how many they can ready/which spells they have readied, and how to regain spent spells. Hmm... I see your point. The Mana idea is basically the "spell maintenance"... the Mana is only there to cope with the problem of "always-on" buffs. Personally, I *like* it, because it kind of ties in into the dynamic of thereserve mechanic (i.e. getting permanent effects, but holding your big guns back), and because it gives you "flexibility": If you want to just worry 'bout your readied/spent spells, then don't run around perma-buffed, then you get the ToB mechanic back (basically). Perhaps one could introduce new "invocation-like" buffs, that last 1 or 2 rounds (or count as "Counters"), so you can only buff you/your allies effectively in combat. Of course, I'm open to *any* suggestions - the material above is just the product of a kind-of burst of creativity (using Servant_of_Metal's idea of stances). I'd like to scrap it, if anybody has another system of handling it, I'm pretty sure that my idea is not the "perfect" solution. ;) For example, you've suggested a reserve-feat like stance mechanic. I just took the "dynamic" of the reserve mechanic and done my own thing - if you or anybody else has other solutions - I'd love to see'em! (Because I'm a sucker for alternate magic systems :) ) If we want to limit certain spells, we could do what True20 has done, and have a Fatigue discriptor on certain spells. Casting a fatigue spell requires you to make a will save, and if you fail it you are fatigued (or exhausted if you already were fatigued, or unconscious if you already were exhausted). Casting multiple fatigue spells imposes a penalty on further will saves to resist fatigue. This would limit spells (like healing and teleportation spells), and would remain within the flavor of the game. Nice thing. Like it. I don't have a True20-copy handy, so... I hope you can develop some ideas around the healing-conundrum. I do like the idea of invocations, counters, enspellments, and boons, though; good names. The idea is based on ToB and your last post, so I only take credit on the names. ;)
TwoSix26 02-09-07, 04:08 PM	On the other hand, using this system is a switch from per day to per encounter, and the fighting classes are already "always-on", so... perhaps roll with perma-max HP? (But I certainly don't like this solution at all). Here's an idea...don't allow healing via spells. You can only cure HP with potions or wands, or via natural healing. However, clerics and druids (or any other healing class) can provide a temporary HP buff, on the order of 5 HP or 10 HP per mana. The caster can withdraw the buff at any point, but the recipient loses an amount of HP equal to the amount given by the buff, even if they have already lost of some of the temporary HP. Example: Fighterbob has 50 HP maximum. He loses 10 HP to well placed goblin sword. Clericpete casts a 1 mana buff, bringing Fighterbob back to 50 HP (40 normal, 10 temp). Round 1 of the next combat, Fighterbob loses 6 HP to a orcish arrow, dropping to 44 HP(40 normal, 4 temp). On Clericpete's turn, he decides he needs some extra mana to smite the vampire boss, and drops Fighterbob's buff. Fighterbob then drops to 34 HP (34 normal, 0 temp). Also, if the target loses all his temporary HP due to damage, the caster is no longer considered maintaining the buff, and gains the mana back. One other non-healing note: If the caster dismisses the buffs voluntarily, he gains back all the mana from the buff immediately. If the buff is dispelled or destroyed by another source, the mana is gained back more slowly (1 mana/round, maybe?).
Neutronium_Dragon 02-09-07, 04:23 PM	If you're using the "Spellsage" variant, and assuming that you limit it to sorc/wiz spells, the most effective "stay sane" limitation would probably be to allow only instantaneous or same/one-round spells (like True Strike). This is how almost all of the martial maneuvers work, and it avoids the problem of perpetual buffing. It still allows for a great range of effects, by no means limited to blasting. You can still teleport, Knock, Identify, and so on.