ToB Casting / Per Encounter Casting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ToB Casting / Per Encounter Casting? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kilpatds
02-26-07, 02:51 PM Has anyone tried to create house rules to make spell casters balanced per encounter instead of per day?

What did you try? How did it work?

Doug
CroBob
02-26-07, 09:53 PM I find it interesting how these classes are supposedly balanced against casters, yet they can, quite frankly, just plain do more stuff.
kilpatds
02-26-07, 09:56 PM I find it interesting how these classes are supposedly balanced against casters, yet they can, quite frankly, just plain do more stuff.

Um? Having played casters, and ToB martial adepts, casters can do Way more stuff... ToB adepts do Hit Point damage better, everything else casters do better. Now, my experiences were in few-encounters a day campaigns, so that's why I'm interested in trying to reduce the ability of the caster to go Nova (dump 40 spell slots in one combat).

Are you suggesting that I should be trying to Nerf ToB adepts down to caster levels?
CroBob
02-27-07, 01:40 AM Um? Having played casters, and ToB martial adepts, casters can do Way more stuff... ToB adepts do Hit Point damage better, everything else casters do better. Now, my experiences were in few-encounters a day campaigns, so that's why I'm interested in trying to reduce the ability of the caster to go Nova (dump 40 spell slots in one combat).

Are you suggesting that I should be trying to Nerf ToB adepts down to caster levels?

Well, yes. They were created to counter the power of spell-casters. Did martial classes ever lack ability to deal damage before? Dealing more damage does not fix the core problem, as it has always been true that martial classes did more damage. Now they do even more, and more frequently? In adddition, it's not even the core martial classes that get the benefits, the classes that were lacking. How does that fix anything?
IceFractal
02-27-07, 04:41 AM The problem with "encounter-based" spellcasting is that not all spells are used during encounters. For instance, Teleport, or Fabricate, or Permanent Image, or any lots of other spells. If they can only be used during encounters, many become pointless, and it encourages metagaming (c'mon, tell your dog to attack me so I can cast Create Food and Water!). If they can be used at will between encounters, they become extraordinarily potent.

That's not to say it's impossible, but it would take of lot of playtesting, and probably require breaking spells into categories, maybe something like:
* Incantations - Can be readied with a minute's meditation, and refreshed during encounters by some classes. Includes spells just useful for combat. The equivalent of ToB strikes, counters, and boosts.
* Auras - Always active, and can be switched with moment's thought, but only possible to have a very few active at once. Includes most buff spells. The equivalent of ToB stances.
* Rituals - Don't need readying, but they consume essence, which is basically power points. Includes most utility spells and full healing spells (limited healing, like lethal to subdual damage conversion, or only heals the last round's worth of damage, could be Incantations).

However, trying to get every spell to fit a category would be anything but easy.
Senevri
02-27-07, 05:05 AM power point type system, with quick recharge(say, one hour), but limited numbers. Staged point costs per level - sure, you can cast a bunch of low-level spells - IF you don't cast any of your higher level ones. Something like, your highest level spells should take about 1/3th of your available PP.
kilpatds
02-27-07, 11:25 AM That's not to say it's impossible, but it would take of lot of playtesting, and probably require breaking spells into categories, maybe something like:
* Incantations - Can be readied with a minute's meditation, and refreshed during encounters by some classes. Includes spells just useful for combat. The equivalent of ToB strikes, counters, and boosts.
* Auras - Always active, and can be switched with moment's thought, but only possible to have a very few active at once. Includes most buff spells. The equivalent of ToB stances.
* Rituals - Don't need readying, but they consume essence, which is basically power points. Includes most utility spells and full healing spells (limited healing, like lethal to subdual damage conversion, or only heals the last round's worth of damage, could be Incantations).

I am intrigued by your views and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :)
Crashy75
02-27-07, 11:29 AM I am intrigued by your views and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :)
I would like to see more as well.

EDIT: I came across something like this on the enworld boards. Check out the 'Crescent Moon' discipline: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3367769#post3367769
kilpatds
02-27-07, 11:34 AM * Auras - Always active, and can be switched with moment's thought, but only possible to have a very few active at once. Includes most buff spells. The equivalent of ToB stances.

Any suggestions for handling spells that should buff others? Anything that buffs others becomes a short duration buff, and thus an invocation?
Lord_Tirian
02-27-07, 11:55 AM Any suggestions for handling spells that should buff others? Anything that buffs others becomes a short duration buff, and thus an invocation?
Servant_of_Metal had a system here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=768389) for such stuff. In the same thread, I've posted my version of it (Post #22 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11431245&postcount=22)), including some Quick&Dirty conversions from standard spells (rather guidelines). This thing is rather on a halt, since I cannot playtest right now (being away from home, and no group where I can DM & house rule), but the material there might inspire you a bit, Xeviat-DM has also posted some very useful information there.

I'd love to see a further development of it and/or ToB-based spellcasting.
Gideon_Gideonson
02-27-07, 04:55 PM Hmmm...interesting, and close to something I've been thinking about. I'll post what I've got in a bit...just have to fix it up a bit.
Seerow
02-27-07, 05:40 PM I'm personally a fan of grossly reducing top tier spellslots available, while increasing lower tier spells. Essentially making lower level spells available on a per encounter basis, while the top tier spells are once per day booms.
Lord_Tirian
02-27-07, 06:03 PM I'm personally a fan of grossly reducing top tier spellslots available, while increasing lower tier spells. Essentially making lower level spells available on a per encounter basis, while the top tier spells are once per day booms.
You're following Szatany's newest updates to the Ultimate Classes, right?
Seerow
02-27-07, 07:26 PM Actually no. I haven't even read those posts. I proposed this several months ago.

Did he use that same idea though? I may have to go look now, damn you.
Crashy75
02-27-07, 07:44 PM I'm personally a fan of grossly reducing top tier spellslots available, while increasing lower tier spells. Essentially making lower level spells available on a per encounter basis, while the top tier spells are once per day booms.

I remember that. I think the lower level spells took 10 min to prepare or some such.
EDIT: He did post that quite a while ago.
Lord_Tirian
02-27-07, 08:02 PM Actually no. I haven't even read those posts. I proposed this several months ago.

Did he use that same idea though? I may have to go look now, damn you.
Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690264) - that's the result of his "Open Caster Balance Challenge" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789009). Essentially, all casters have a vastly reduced number of slots, but can use certain spells at will at 1/2 caster level, meaning a caster can cast all day long, but for the full effect or the higher level "big guns", as well as the "balanced against daily use"-spells like healing, you have to burn spell slots (which are limited).
Vyvyan Basterd
02-27-07, 10:29 PM Has anyone tried to create house rules to make spell casters balanced per encounter instead of per day?

What did you try? How did it work?

Doug

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=700513
IceFractal
02-28-07, 04:05 AM Any suggestions for handling spells that should buff others? Anything that buffs others becomes a short duration buff, and thus an invocation?

I could see a couple ways of doing it:
* For in-combat buffs, they could be Incantations with a very short duration.
* Alternately, or as a feat, there could be the option to share your Auras, giving allies the benefit, at the cost of fewer and/or less powerful Auras. Or, some auras could just allow multiple people to benefit.
* For utility buffs (like Overland Flight), they could be done either as shared Auras or Rituals.

Incidentally, glad to see this is useful to people - I haven't fleshed it out fully, but I could see the classes working somewhat like the ToB ones:

Wizard: Larger number of spells readied and auras, but regains them slowly in battle - full round action to regain part of your slots. Can switch out readied spells with 15 minutes spent studying spellbook.

Sorcerer: Smaller number of spells readied, but, like the Warblade, can refresh them very easily, as a swift action following any invocation. Has spells known like currently.

Cleric/Druid: Medium number of spells readied, access method is semi-random like the Crusader, but can convert to healing/inflicting/summoning as appropriate. Can change readied spells with 15 minutes prayer/meditation.

And as a side benefit, the semi-random access should put the Cleric, and especially Druid, more in line with the other casters.
FrostHammer
02-28-07, 03:02 PM To balance against this, should enemies and monsters have less high level SLA as well? Being able to use Blasphemy at will is now more powerful than ever since your clerics have less spell resources against that Pit Fiend.
enlightened
03-05-07, 02:39 AM Wizard: Larger number of spells readied and auras, but regains them slowly in battle - full round action to regain part of your slots. Can switch out readied spells with 15 minutes spent studying spellbook.

Sorcerer: Smaller number of spells readied, but, like the Warblade, can refresh them very easily, as a swift action following any invocation. Has spells known like currently.

And this time we could do it right (i.e. no "adaptive style" cheese allowing wizards to refresh all slots as a full round action for a single feat).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kilpatds 02-26-07, 02:51 PM	Has anyone tried to create house rules to make spell casters balanced per encounter instead of per day? What did you try? How did it work? Doug
CroBob 02-26-07, 09:53 PM	I find it interesting how these classes are supposedly balanced against casters, yet they can, quite frankly, just plain do more stuff.
kilpatds 02-26-07, 09:56 PM	I find it interesting how these classes are supposedly balanced against casters, yet they can, quite frankly, just plain do more stuff. Um? Having played casters, and ToB martial adepts, casters can do Way more stuff... ToB adepts do Hit Point damage better, everything else casters do better. Now, my experiences were in few-encounters a day campaigns, so that's why I'm interested in trying to reduce the ability of the caster to go Nova (dump 40 spell slots in one combat). Are you suggesting that I should be trying to Nerf ToB adepts down to caster levels?
CroBob 02-27-07, 01:40 AM	Um? Having played casters, and ToB martial adepts, casters can do Way more stuff... ToB adepts do Hit Point damage better, everything else casters do better. Now, my experiences were in few-encounters a day campaigns, so that's why I'm interested in trying to reduce the ability of the caster to go Nova (dump 40 spell slots in one combat). Are you suggesting that I should be trying to Nerf ToB adepts down to caster levels? Well, yes. They were created to counter the power of spell-casters. Did martial classes ever lack ability to deal damage before? Dealing more damage does not fix the core problem, as it has always been true that martial classes did more damage. Now they do even more, and more frequently? In adddition, it's not even the core martial classes that get the benefits, the classes that were lacking. How does that fix anything?
IceFractal 02-27-07, 04:41 AM	The problem with "encounter-based" spellcasting is that not all spells are used during encounters. For instance, Teleport, or Fabricate, or Permanent Image, or any lots of other spells. If they can only be used during encounters, many become pointless, and it encourages metagaming (c'mon, tell your dog to attack me so I can cast Create Food and Water!). If they can be used at will between encounters, they become extraordinarily potent. That's not to say it's impossible, but it would take of lot of playtesting, and probably require breaking spells into categories, maybe something like: * Incantations - Can be readied with a minute's meditation, and refreshed during encounters by some classes. Includes spells just useful for combat. The equivalent of ToB strikes, counters, and boosts. * Auras - Always active, and can be switched with moment's thought, but only possible to have a very few active at once. Includes most buff spells. The equivalent of ToB stances. * Rituals - Don't need readying, but they consume essence, which is basically power points. Includes most utility spells and full healing spells (limited healing, like lethal to subdual damage conversion, or only heals the last round's worth of damage, could be Incantations). However, trying to get every spell to fit a category would be anything but easy.
Senevri 02-27-07, 05:05 AM	power point type system, with quick recharge(say, one hour), but limited numbers. Staged point costs per level - sure, you can cast a bunch of low-level spells - IF you don't cast any of your higher level ones. Something like, your highest level spells should take about 1/3th of your available PP.
kilpatds 02-27-07, 11:25 AM	That's not to say it's impossible, but it would take of lot of playtesting, and probably require breaking spells into categories, maybe something like: * Incantations - Can be readied with a minute's meditation, and refreshed during encounters by some classes. Includes spells just useful for combat. The equivalent of ToB strikes, counters, and boosts. * Auras - Always active, and can be switched with moment's thought, but only possible to have a very few active at once. Includes most buff spells. The equivalent of ToB stances. * Rituals - Don't need readying, but they consume essence, which is basically power points. Includes most utility spells and full healing spells (limited healing, like lethal to subdual damage conversion, or only heals the last round's worth of damage, could be Incantations). I am intrigued by your views and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :)
Crashy75 02-27-07, 11:29 AM	I am intrigued by your views and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :) I would like to see more as well. EDIT: I came across something like this on the enworld boards. Check out the 'Crescent Moon' discipline: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3367769#post3367769
kilpatds 02-27-07, 11:34 AM	* Auras - Always active, and can be switched with moment's thought, but only possible to have a very few active at once. Includes most buff spells. The equivalent of ToB stances. Any suggestions for handling spells that should buff others? Anything that buffs others becomes a short duration buff, and thus an invocation?
Lord_Tirian 02-27-07, 11:55 AM	Any suggestions for handling spells that should buff others? Anything that buffs others becomes a short duration buff, and thus an invocation? Servant_of_Metal had a system here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=768389) for such stuff. In the same thread, I've posted my version of it (Post #22 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11431245&postcount=22)), including some Quick&Dirty conversions from standard spells (rather guidelines). This thing is rather on a halt, since I cannot playtest right now (being away from home, and no group where I can DM & house rule), but the material there might inspire you a bit, Xeviat-DM has also posted some very useful information there. I'd love to see a further development of it and/or ToB-based spellcasting.
Gideon_Gideonson 02-27-07, 04:55 PM	Hmmm...interesting, and close to something I've been thinking about. I'll post what I've got in a bit...just have to fix it up a bit.
Seerow 02-27-07, 05:40 PM	I'm personally a fan of grossly reducing top tier spellslots available, while increasing lower tier spells. Essentially making lower level spells available on a per encounter basis, while the top tier spells are once per day booms.
Lord_Tirian 02-27-07, 06:03 PM	I'm personally a fan of grossly reducing top tier spellslots available, while increasing lower tier spells. Essentially making lower level spells available on a per encounter basis, while the top tier spells are once per day booms. You're following Szatany's newest updates to the Ultimate Classes, right?
Seerow 02-27-07, 07:26 PM	Actually no. I haven't even read those posts. I proposed this several months ago. Did he use that same idea though? I may have to go look now, damn you.
Crashy75 02-27-07, 07:44 PM	I'm personally a fan of grossly reducing top tier spellslots available, while increasing lower tier spells. Essentially making lower level spells available on a per encounter basis, while the top tier spells are once per day booms. I remember that. I think the lower level spells took 10 min to prepare or some such. EDIT: He did post that quite a while ago.
Lord_Tirian 02-27-07, 08:02 PM	Actually no. I haven't even read those posts. I proposed this several months ago. Did he use that same idea though? I may have to go look now, damn you. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690264) - that's the result of his "Open Caster Balance Challenge" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789009). Essentially, all casters have a vastly reduced number of slots, but can use certain spells at will at 1/2 caster level, meaning a caster can cast all day long, but for the full effect or the higher level "big guns", as well as the "balanced against daily use"-spells like healing, you have to burn spell slots (which are limited).
Vyvyan Basterd 02-27-07, 10:29 PM	Has anyone tried to create house rules to make spell casters balanced per encounter instead of per day? What did you try? How did it work? Doug http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=700513
IceFractal 02-28-07, 04:05 AM	Any suggestions for handling spells that should buff others? Anything that buffs others becomes a short duration buff, and thus an invocation? I could see a couple ways of doing it: * For in-combat buffs, they could be Incantations with a very short duration. * Alternately, or as a feat, there could be the option to share your Auras, giving allies the benefit, at the cost of fewer and/or less powerful Auras. Or, some auras could just allow multiple people to benefit. * For utility buffs (like Overland Flight), they could be done either as shared Auras or Rituals. Incidentally, glad to see this is useful to people - I haven't fleshed it out fully, but I could see the classes working somewhat like the ToB ones: Wizard: Larger number of spells readied and auras, but regains them slowly in battle - full round action to regain part of your slots. Can switch out readied spells with 15 minutes spent studying spellbook. Sorcerer: Smaller number of spells readied, but, like the Warblade, can refresh them very easily, as a swift action following any invocation. Has spells known like currently. Cleric/Druid: Medium number of spells readied, access method is semi-random like the Crusader, but can convert to healing/inflicting/summoning as appropriate. Can change readied spells with 15 minutes prayer/meditation. And as a side benefit, the semi-random access should put the Cleric, and especially Druid, more in line with the other casters.
FrostHammer 02-28-07, 03:02 PM	To balance against this, should enemies and monsters have less high level SLA as well? Being able to use Blasphemy at will is now more powerful than ever since your clerics have less spell resources against that Pit Fiend.
enlightened 03-05-07, 02:39 AM	Wizard: Larger number of spells readied and auras, but regains them slowly in battle - full round action to regain part of your slots. Can switch out readied spells with 15 minutes spent studying spellbook. Sorcerer: Smaller number of spells readied, but, like the Warblade, can refresh them very easily, as a swift action following any invocation. Has spells known like currently. And this time we could do it right (i.e. no "adaptive style" cheese allowing wizards to refresh all slots as a full round action for a single feat).