ToB classes and unrestricted discipline access? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ToB classes and unrestricted discipline access? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Demonwolf
12-14-06, 03:20 AM If one kept a good eye out for blatant minmaxing, would it be horribly breaking to give crusaders/swordsages/warblades access to any 3/6/5 disciplines they wanted rather than the ones listed in ToB? I see it leading to a lot of interesting RP possibilities; I can easily see how a White Raven swordsage could make for a really interesting character, or a Desert Wind/Devoted Spirit crusader (sounds like a perfect mechanical representation of a dervish), or even a Setting Sun warblade.

Or are the disciplines specifically balanced for the classes they're assigned to? Would it be incongruous in the way that, say, giving a cleric access to the wizard spell list would be? It doesn't seem likely given the very existence of Martial Study, the Master of Nine and pretty much every other PrC in the book. Still, wanted to confirm.
Krusk
12-14-06, 04:01 AM Not too familiar with TOB but i do know that there is one disipline that only one of the classes get. If you do do this you might want to make sure it stays that way, it was probably -hopefully- done with a reason.
X-Codes
12-14-06, 05:43 AM Crusader has unique access to the Devoted Spirit discipline.

Swordsage has unique access to the Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun disciplines.

Warbalde has unique access to the Iron Heart discipline.

Also, they are somewhat tailor-fitted to their classes. While it may or may not be unbalancing to allow them any combination of maneuvers, it will probably work in a clunky way mechanically.
Sphyre
12-14-06, 08:47 AM Or are the disciplines specifically balanced for the classes they're assigned to? Would it be incongruous in the way that, say, giving a cleric access to the wizard spell list would be? It doesn't seem likely given the very existence of Martial Study, the Master of Nine and pretty much every other PrC in the book. Still, wanted to confirm.

I would say yes, they are specifically balanced for the classes. If you notice the crusader has one discipline all to itself. The Warblade has one discipline all to itself and the Sword sage, with the lower BAB, proficiencies and hitdie, has 3 disciplines to itself. I specifically can see both the Desert wind and Shadow Hand as balanced more for the swordsage than any of the others. It specifically has abilities that allow the swordsage to shortrange teleport. I can see a warblade or crusader with either being quite an additional power.

Note that the martial study feat and the master of nine do both grant limited access to others. Martial study is a feat for one ability, of which you still must meet prerequisites for, so your initiator level must be high enough and you must have the prerequite maneuver. Both of which balance out more of the stronger stuff. The master of nine is a bit heavy on the prerequisites, and even then you just gain access to others, you gain access to all the disciplines but you you have to choose wisely because while you have 9 disciplines to choose from you only gain 7 maneuvers over the 5 levels you gain it, so you have to choose wisely. Interestingly enough, a master of nine after those 5 levels doesn't grant access to all 9 disciplines after you go back to your previous base class, so it really is a tradeoff, and quite a late PrC, and heavy on the prerequisites.

Regardless of which if you wish to try it out, you may, I by no means am trying to tell you not to. I just think that you could do some really crazy things if you gave all the classes access to different disciplines, also of which you'd be taking away a lot of the unique flavor of a lot of the classes, such as the crusader being the only one able to heal, or the swordsage being the only teleporting one that also can add fire or sneak attacks.
Keterys
12-14-06, 10:10 AM I don't believe that doing so will greatly harm your campaign. I'd suggest against giving the warblade free access to all of them purely because he currently can access only the 'mostly nonmagical ones' and his mechanic allows him to reuse abilities much more sequentially than the other two classes.

Both the swordsage and crusader have supernatural ties, and having a Swordsage of Moradin who has Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart instead of white raven, or Pelor who has Desert Wind instead of Stone Dragon? Should be fine and balanced. Swordsage with Devoted Spirit instead of Setting Sun? Sure.
Sphyre
12-14-06, 10:54 AM I don't believe that doing so will greatly harm your campaign. I'd suggest against giving the warblade free access to all of them purely because he currently can access only the 'mostly nonmagical ones' and his mechanic allows him to reuse abilities much more sequentially than the other two classes.

I might be worried about the crusader with the Extra granted maneuver feat (esspecially if using the customer service method, where after the third round you can use your maneuvers each round) as they have the best recovery method of all (it's free!, doesn't even cost you a swift action)
fatal error
12-15-06, 06:54 PM I would say at least keep them restricted to the same number, if not the exact same ones. So, a crusader of Wee Jas could grab Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind as his three disciplines, since they fit better with Wee Jas.
Keterys
12-15-06, 07:27 PM where after the third round you can use your maneuvers each round

If you do that, you deserve what you get :)
Demonwolf
12-15-06, 08:37 PM I'd say the fact that crusaders get fewer disciplines compensates for the better recovery mechanic.
Keterys
12-16-06, 09:00 AM Swordsages can prep tons of different maneuvers, but lose steam if a battle goes too long.
Crusaders can't rely on specific combos, but are able to go forever with what tehy do have.
Warblades build a specific combo and do it over and over and over again.

Ie, a warblade does
Round 1: Maneuver A, Boost A
Round 2: Maneuver B, Boost B
Round 3: Maneuver C, Boost C
Round 4: Full attack while regaining all maneuvers, repeat

It's both the most boring and most breakable, because they give up nothing (like the swordsage's base attack and recovery or the crusader's randomness), so it's the one that would be the easiest to find a loophole in.

And yeah, obviously you should be trading disciplines so that they have access to the same total number.
Demonwolf
12-16-06, 12:18 PM Unrelated note, could someone give me a link to the custserv explanation of the crusader mechanic?
Keterys
12-16-06, 02:27 PM I can't link directly anymore, but I think it might be found in this thread
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775

Basically, it was an extrapolation on 'The crusader recovers expended maneuvers whenever there are no more withheld maneuvers left to be granted' (p40) which turns into 'Well, I've got 3 maneuvers granted and unused, and 3 that I've expended, and none left withheld, so I shuffle the used maneuvers and draw 3' - ie, 'Every round after the first few I use these specific maneuvers, and get them back the next round. Then use them, and get them back, ad infinitum, cause I've already drawn all my maneuvers'

I go with the method described on p38, however, which explains exactly how it works and how you _don't_ do that :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demonwolf 12-14-06, 03:20 AM	If one kept a good eye out for blatant minmaxing, would it be horribly breaking to give crusaders/swordsages/warblades access to any 3/6/5 disciplines they wanted rather than the ones listed in ToB? I see it leading to a lot of interesting RP possibilities; I can easily see how a White Raven swordsage could make for a really interesting character, or a Desert Wind/Devoted Spirit crusader (sounds like a perfect mechanical representation of a dervish), or even a Setting Sun warblade. Or are the disciplines specifically balanced for the classes they're assigned to? Would it be incongruous in the way that, say, giving a cleric access to the wizard spell list would be? It doesn't seem likely given the very existence of Martial Study, the Master of Nine and pretty much every other PrC in the book. Still, wanted to confirm.
Krusk 12-14-06, 04:01 AM	Not too familiar with TOB but i do know that there is one disipline that only one of the classes get. If you do do this you might want to make sure it stays that way, it was probably -hopefully- done with a reason.
X-Codes 12-14-06, 05:43 AM	Crusader has unique access to the Devoted Spirit discipline. Swordsage has unique access to the Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun disciplines. Warbalde has unique access to the Iron Heart discipline. Also, they are somewhat tailor-fitted to their classes. While it may or may not be unbalancing to allow them any combination of maneuvers, it will probably work in a clunky way mechanically.
Sphyre 12-14-06, 08:47 AM	Or are the disciplines specifically balanced for the classes they're assigned to? Would it be incongruous in the way that, say, giving a cleric access to the wizard spell list would be? It doesn't seem likely given the very existence of Martial Study, the Master of Nine and pretty much every other PrC in the book. Still, wanted to confirm. I would say yes, they are specifically balanced for the classes. If you notice the crusader has one discipline all to itself. The Warblade has one discipline all to itself and the Sword sage, with the lower BAB, proficiencies and hitdie, has 3 disciplines to itself. I specifically can see both the Desert wind and Shadow Hand as balanced more for the swordsage than any of the others. It specifically has abilities that allow the swordsage to shortrange teleport. I can see a warblade or crusader with either being quite an additional power. Note that the martial study feat and the master of nine do both grant limited access to others. Martial study is a feat for one ability, of which you still must meet prerequisites for, so your initiator level must be high enough and you must have the prerequite maneuver. Both of which balance out more of the stronger stuff. The master of nine is a bit heavy on the prerequisites, and even then you just gain access to others, you gain access to all the disciplines but you you have to choose wisely because while you have 9 disciplines to choose from you only gain 7 maneuvers over the 5 levels you gain it, so you have to choose wisely. Interestingly enough, a master of nine after those 5 levels doesn't grant access to all 9 disciplines after you go back to your previous base class, so it really is a tradeoff, and quite a late PrC, and heavy on the prerequisites. Regardless of which if you wish to try it out, you may, I by no means am trying to tell you not to. I just think that you could do some really crazy things if you gave all the classes access to different disciplines, also of which you'd be taking away a lot of the unique flavor of a lot of the classes, such as the crusader being the only one able to heal, or the swordsage being the only teleporting one that also can add fire or sneak attacks.
Keterys 12-14-06, 10:10 AM	I don't believe that doing so will greatly harm your campaign. I'd suggest against giving the warblade free access to all of them purely because he currently can access only the 'mostly nonmagical ones' and his mechanic allows him to reuse abilities much more sequentially than the other two classes. Both the swordsage and crusader have supernatural ties, and having a Swordsage of Moradin who has Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart instead of white raven, or Pelor who has Desert Wind instead of Stone Dragon? Should be fine and balanced. Swordsage with Devoted Spirit instead of Setting Sun? Sure.
Sphyre 12-14-06, 10:54 AM	I don't believe that doing so will greatly harm your campaign. I'd suggest against giving the warblade free access to all of them purely because he currently can access only the 'mostly nonmagical ones' and his mechanic allows him to reuse abilities much more sequentially than the other two classes. I might be worried about the crusader with the Extra granted maneuver feat (esspecially if using the customer service method, where after the third round you can use your maneuvers each round) as they have the best recovery method of all (it's free!, doesn't even cost you a swift action)
fatal error 12-15-06, 06:54 PM	I would say at least keep them restricted to the same number, if not the exact same ones. So, a crusader of Wee Jas could grab Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind as his three disciplines, since they fit better with Wee Jas.
Keterys 12-15-06, 07:27 PM	where after the third round you can use your maneuvers each round If you do that, you deserve what you get :)
Demonwolf 12-15-06, 08:37 PM	I'd say the fact that crusaders get fewer disciplines compensates for the better recovery mechanic.
Keterys 12-16-06, 09:00 AM	Swordsages can prep tons of different maneuvers, but lose steam if a battle goes too long. Crusaders can't rely on specific combos, but are able to go forever with what tehy do have. Warblades build a specific combo and do it over and over and over again. Ie, a warblade does Round 1: Maneuver A, Boost A Round 2: Maneuver B, Boost B Round 3: Maneuver C, Boost C Round 4: Full attack while regaining all maneuvers, repeat It's both the most boring and most breakable, because they give up nothing (like the swordsage's base attack and recovery or the crusader's randomness), so it's the one that would be the easiest to find a loophole in. And yeah, obviously you should be trading disciplines so that they have access to the same total number.
Demonwolf 12-16-06, 12:18 PM	Unrelated note, could someone give me a link to the custserv explanation of the crusader mechanic?
Keterys 12-16-06, 02:27 PM	I can't link directly anymore, but I think it might be found in this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775 Basically, it was an extrapolation on 'The crusader recovers expended maneuvers whenever there are no more withheld maneuvers left to be granted' (p40) which turns into 'Well, I've got 3 maneuvers granted and unused, and 3 that I've expended, and none left withheld, so I shuffle the used maneuvers and draw 3' - ie, 'Every round after the first few I use these specific maneuvers, and get them back the next round. Then use them, and get them back, ad infinitum, cause I've already drawn all my maneuvers' I go with the method described on p38, however, which explains exactly how it works and how you _don't_ do that :)