Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vashwood 04-30-07, 09:35 PM	Alright, here's the deal. I love the martial arts flavor behind ToB, however like it or not, it amounts to giving wizards fighter HD and unlimited (melee range, granted) attack spells. The limitation of needing to re-ready maneuvers and such really hasn't stopped every Nine Swords user in games I've played from steamrolling opponents that are supposed to be a challenge for whole groups of a level higher, and also the readying always kinda bothered me anyhow, so I figured I might try a revamp. A friend of mine was recently toying with some new class that used Nine Swords maneuvers, and had an idea that intrigued me: in order to use a maneuver, you have to build up "ki" points (for lack of a better term) to do so. Players of Guild Wars may find this similar in concept to building "strikes of Adrenaline" as a Warrior. The concept is rather simple, each path of the Sublime Way has it's own method of building points, which are tracked independently for each discipline. For example, Tiger Claw would build it's own pool of "ki" for use on it's maneuvers (perhaps a point would be gained for each successful strike, as this discipline relies on raw primal fury), which would be unusable for Diamond Mind maneuvers, Stone Dragon maneuvers, etc. Further, I'd also like to revise some of the maneuvers, as it seems like they should scale a bit more. For example, Mountain Hammer Strike allows an adept to completely ignore hardness or damage reduction of any kind (and add 2d6 damage to the damage roll) right from 3rd level ... which, I can testify to, can result in higher level tank-type bosses getting thrashed by significantly lower level characters (in some instances, before said boss should even be fought =\ ). Also, scaling maneuver-power means that the lvl 15 who retained his Mountain Hammer Strike over 20 years of hard adventuring for breaking down doors isn't getting shown up by the lvl 3 who just obtained the attack. Unfortunately, I don't really have the time for more than the most obvious ones, so for the time being I'll be mainly addressing the point system. Now then, the concept is still rather vaguely defined, as I've only just recently decided to work on it, but I'll be posting my ideas here. Questions, comments, and other such are appreciated (particularly if you've play-tested the changes and have input =)
Vashwood 04-30-07, 10:20 PM	First off, I'd like to begin by explaining the reasoning behind the Ki Point System. As was previously mentioned, this system means that in order to use your maneuvers, you have to spent points built up through battle. The main reason for this is simple: if a guy can slam an enemy with a single attack with tons of extra damage/effects at his highest base attack, what's the point of normal melee combat? Once you reach most any reasonable level, your opponent won't be lasting though your whole list of attacks you prepared, particularly if your team is any help whatsoever. Also, Sublime Way adepts tend to completely overshadow any other melee type in battle since every time they hit, it's like the party Warmage blasting his heart out all over the opponent. Secondly, most of these moves seem more like (and in the case of the Nightmare Blade series, are described as) finishing moves, rather than the meat and potatos of your fight. It takes some of the climax out of the fight when you begin the combat with the Diamond Mind's favorite finishing move ... I mean, who would have been disappointed if, in Advent Children, our slab sword wielding hero has just finished the unstoppable villain with a Limit Break right from the beginning? Now then, with that explanation out of the way, let's explain the concept. As was mentioned, each style will have it's own point-building method. At the moment, I'm not sure if I want the points to fade at the end of battle, or remain for some short while (perhaps an hour or something similar). Points will be tracked separately for each style, and points built by one style, like Tiger Claw, won't be usable for maneuvers from, say Stone Dragon. It should also be mentioned that I plan to remove the need to "ready" maneuvers ... all maneuvers are usable the instant the necessary Ki has been obtained. At least to start, an adept will require one point of Ki per level of the maneuver. For the moment, I have only a few ideas as to the Ki gathering methods for each style, but I think I may slant it slightly to slow the Ki building of stronger disciplines like Diamond Mind. But, anyhow, here's what I've got so far ... Desert Wind: None as of yet. Considering one based on movement, as mobility is considered valuable for this discipline. Devoted Spirit: While your devotion tends to be towards your cause rather than your allies, I figured a group-oriented method fit here. I may later make one method for each alignment. Each time an adjacent ally is struck in combat, you gain one point of Ki. You may only gain one point of Ki from each ally per round. Diamond Mind: The Diamond Mind teaches that with enough focus, anything is possible. The adept may sacrifice a move or standard action to obtain a point of Ki for this discipline as he calms and gathers himself for battle. Iron Heart: Those who use the Iron Heart style believe that unity with their weapon allows them to surpass those who simply treat their blades as tools. Through poise and practice, they become as hardened and steely as the weapons they wield. Each time a Iron Heart adept resists a disarm or sunder attempt he gains one point of Ki. In addition, he may sacrifice a move action to make a Balance check (DC 15 + terrain modifiers) to position himself for a maneuver, thereby gaining a point of Ki. Setting Sun: Power is illusory, that is the methodology of the Setting Sun. A Setting Sun adept who demonstrates this tenant by succeeding on a trip or or bull rush maneuver, or by dodging a charge attack, gains a point of Ki. Further, a Setting Sun adept may attempt to gauge his foe's weakness by spending a move action and attempting Sense Motive check (DC 10 + 1/2 HD of the strongest opponent on the field) Shadow Hand: Surprise is the greatest weapon of the Shadow Hand. Adepts who demonstrate this by delivering an attack against a flatfooted enemy gain one point of Ki. Stone Dragon: Endurance is key among Stone Dragon adepts. Each time a Stone Dragon adept is injured in combat, he gains a single point of Ki, though he may not benefit from this more than once per enemy per round. Tiger Claw: Hack, slash, and hack some more. The bestial nature of the Tiger Claw adept only truly emerges when he is soaked in the blood of his foes, which is represented by each normal melee attack gaining him a point of Ki. White Raven: Together we stand, divided we fall. The White Raven are supreme leaders, and are only really at home in a group. Each time one of his allies uses the Aid Another action in combat, the White Raven adept gains a point of Ki.
Jaime_Wolf 05-01-07, 02:13 AM	I find this a terrible idea. First, it makes playing them more complex and part of the draw of playing a martial character is the relative simplicity (which the ToB classes are already stretching, but the recovery mechanics are generally fairly simple). The other flaw, much more dire, is the initial assumption that the ToB classes need to be rebalanced. If the ToB characters are as lethal as the spellcasters in your party, hand your casters a Player's Handbook and help them pick spells. Sure ToB characters can do a decent amount of damage (really not THAT huge compared to what's possible with a caster or even a properly built barbarian, unless the ToB character is being extremely cheap with unfair combinations of things), but wizards don't even have to do damage, they can just say "make a save or die". High level wizards should not be relying particularly heavily on pure damage anyway. As for the large defences you percieve, many cannot wear decent armour and casters have a near-infinite advantage in avoiding attacks. A caster can fly, create concealment, speed himself up in numerous ways, go invisible, go ethereal, the list goes on. Heck, early on, casters often have higher AC thanks to many spells. And don't even BEGIN to compare a ToB class against a CoDzilla. As for the wonderful unlimited usage ability, VERY few times do spellcasters use up all of their spells per day once they reach mid-levels if they play intelligently. So really your problem isn't that the ToB characters are overpowered, more that your casters are stupid. The only things that ToB characters are more powerful than are the core martial classes which, by all estimates, are severely underpowered at later levels.
Vashwood 05-01-07, 11:59 AM	Well, your opinion is your opinion. Admittedly, there are few good casters in my group, and not many play mages much (when it comes down to it, I was always the arcanist) . However, it's also true that those same people can pick relatively stupid Nine Swords maneuvers and still come out on par with moderately optimized wizards, barbs ... and let's not even mention fighters. My problem with Nine Swords is that in the 4 or so campaigns I've seen them in, they are extremely easy to optimize and can end boss fight encounters in a single round if used right, which tends to ruin the tension and such of the game. Really, there's only a few solutions to prolonging a meaningful encounter, and those are 1) put the enemy out of melee range (not even that always works, with certain members of our group) or 2) find a way to make the enemy unhittable (grossly unfair to the other melee types ... not their fault they weren't spawned from rape incarnate like the Warblade), or 3) set a grossly overpowered encounter, which will probably kill the rest of the group. As for the complexity ... yes, as is, it isn't exactly streamlined. But then, that's what development and progress are for.
ZiggZagg 05-01-07, 12:17 PM	Why are your characters fighting only one enemy in the boss fights? The BBEG doesn't have minions? It may be a bad stereo-type, but that is because it works. The BBEG should be able to standback and let his cannon fodder helpers engage up close while he stands back and rains death, alters the battlefield to his liking, or in someway disables the PC's from using their most useful tricks. Your BBEG should not be surprised by any tactics the player's use. He knows all of their tricks, and he knows how to stop them. One big thing to remember about Martial Adepts is that they cannot use maneuvers if they cannot move. Grapple them, Hold them, do something. Evard's Black Tentacles work wonders here. Disable their abilities and they quickly lose their effectiveness
Vashwood 05-01-07, 01:34 PM	It's not that he doesn't have minions, it's just that he is clearly the boss, so they kill him first. Putting crowds of enemies in the way doesn't always help either ... especially since said crowd is typically weak so as to not overload the encounter level. And grappling does work, unfortunately it wouldn't make much sense that every villain in my campaigns happens to hire a sumo wrestler just in case an adept shows up. Look, the point being, I don't want to have to resort to gimping the most powerful character in every fight ... particularly as not every boss fight occurs when the enemy would have knowledge of the group's abilities. Not every bad guy has crystal balls to look into that tell him the group's weaknesses, nor does every bad guy necessarily have the resources or time needed to exploit those weaknesses. For example, my current group is lower-level, and any noteworthy successes have all been performed alongside of heros of considerable renown, so the first "boss" they are facing has little idea that they might be a significant threat ... indeed, low-profile as they are, he might not even realize they might rise to stop him at all. My point being, there are instances where the BBEG doesn't even realize the group poses a threat ... perhaps because he's focusing on more obvious dangers, or perhaps because he realizes that adventurers who haven't even made a name for themselves shouldn't be able to waltz in and one-hit him. It's not to say my villains don't prepare, but I actually roleplay how they would think it through. They use general defensive preparations rather than spontaneously knowing the weaknesses of a group they've never encountered before, or a group they didn't know was in the area. And, all that aside, I still feel opening up with stuff like Greater Insightful Strike kinda kills the drama of the fight, even if it only half-kills the enemy rather than one-hitting him.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-01-07, 04:15 PM	The fundamental problem here is that you're using computer game style "boss fights". Those don't work in D&D. Whether it's a ToB character, or a spellcaster with a save-or-else, or even just a trip-monkey fighter from the PHB, a single "big bad boss" is very easy to neutralize, and the presence of mooks won't change that. ("Focus all fire on the super star destroyer!" as someone else put it.) Nerfing things isn't the answer - using better combat encounters is. Several somewhat weaker (but relatively equal) opponents make for a *much* better encounter because it's not as easy to neutralize the entire group of them and they're not as heavily outweighed in actions as the lone boss (or meaningful actions in the case of the boss + mooks). They also have the "combined arms" advantage in that they can use their abilities in synergy just like the PCs can. In other words, rather than throwing a Fighter 8 (or Fighter 7/8 plus a crowd of Fighter 2s) at the party in that encounter, put them up against a Fighter 5/6, a Rogue 5/6, and a Sorcerer 5/6, or some other combination of that sort.
fatal error 05-02-07, 12:43 AM	Couple points: 1) The fact that Tome of Battle classes are easy to optimize is a good thing, not a bad thing. The less complex and easier it is to make an effective character, the better and more streamlined the system. Why should one have to look through twelve books to find the right synergistic feats to bring his Fighter up to par? Why not just look in these one or two books, pick your class, roll your stats, and grab some maneuvers, all of which are quality. 2) Yea, Tome of Battle classes can do a lot of damage early in a fight. But what happened to the fact that every other class works best early? Rogues do best when they get Surprise Rounds and then win Initiative. Buffing before a battle is always best, so everyone have the most buffs at the start, before they begin running out. And who could forget, the fact that the most damaging Melee build are based around the start of combats: Charging. Leap Attacking Shock Trooper Barbarians and Spirited Shock Trooper Paladins can be just as much of a first-round encounter ender as a Martial Adept. 3) Most objectionable in my mind, you are attempting to take the fun out of Tome of Battle. The book gives the Player a chance to make every round unique, using a different maneuver, a different tactic, every time. Even rounds you decide to recover are unique, because you made the decision to recover. By forcing them to spend actions to "build up" their power points, you tell them, "Yea, you used to get to make decisions every round, now you use a move action and an attack action every round, then use your best strike. Oh, and which strike you use is limited by which type of move action you used, so, still less decision making." 4) Now I shall critique you system, rather than your ideas. I will try to be a neutral as possible given my bias from above: Devoted Spirit: This is foolishness. Devoted Spirit is about protecting your teammates. This system might make sense fluff-wise, you become increasingly enraged as you see your friends hurt, but it makes no sense mechanically. Now you'll have Crusaders putting their friends in the front line so they can get their special attacks off. Diamond Mind: Can this be used before combat? Then it defeats your entire purpose. Can it be used during combat? My Martial Adept gets to make a single attack each round while his Fighter companion makes three. And all for what? An attack that commonly isn't significantly better than single full attack, and certainly worse than all those missed Full Attacks built up to use it? Iron Heart: The first method forces me to rely on my opponent using tactics most monsters never use. This might be different in your game, but Sundering is pretty rare on both sides of the screen in mine, and few monsters have Improved Disarm. Furthermore, if your opponents are using this a lot, you'll probably be grabbing your weapon as much as building Ki. The second method is, again, worse than making all those Full Attacks. Actually, it is worse, because there is a chance of failure, unlike Diamond Mind. Setting Sun: First method is too good to be true. If you're Setting Sun, you probably have Improved Trip. You just made the day of every Spiked Chain Tripper out there. Now they can full attack trip everyone around them, and get extra bonuses for it. Second method, again worse than Diamond Mind, probably also worse than Iron Heart. Shadow Hand: Well, since I'd need to feint to get this reliably, it is essentially like the three above, except I have to take two feats as well. Of course, if I can get into Invisible Blade, everything will be much nicer. Stone Dragon: Some have to spend move actions to get points, so why do others only have to do their job to gain them? Tiger Claw: Again, only doing my job, and getting points for it. Plus, I can TWF and rack up insane amounts of points. Although, by this time, I presume that different disciplines will have drastically different point scales? Further complicating the system. . . White Raven: What you mean is "each time your ally says your strikes are better than his actions" you gain a Ki point, right? This seems almost exactly opposite of what it should be, just like Devoted Spirit. In practice, it should be the White Raven user giving of himself to help his teammates. See White Raven strikes, almost all of which directly or indirectly benefit allies. Plus, this makes Tome of Battle characters steal the show by forcing their allies to use Aid Another and then they go and do the actual fighting. Okay, so that neutral approach didn't quite make it through the critique. Sorry, hope you find something useful among the vindictiveness.
Drachasor 05-02-07, 12:56 AM	It's not that he doesn't have minions, it's just that he is clearly the boss, so they kill him first. Putting crowds of enemies in the way doesn't always help either ... especially since said crowd is typically weak so as to not overload the encounter level. And grappling does work, unfortunately it wouldn't make much sense that every villain in my campaigns happens to hire a sumo wrestler just in case an adept shows up. What's the CR of these encounters and what are the player levels? What's the BBEG (race, classes if any, etc)? What sort of minions are you using? What's the terrain? -Drachasor PS. An equal CR encounter is NOT a challenge to a group of 4 PCs. It's a fairly easy fight. That's why it only consumes about 20% of their resources.
Vashwood 05-02-07, 04:51 PM	Cool, we've actually started on the first part of effecting a beneficial change ... criticizing the old system. Now, if we could just get to the point where we also make suggestions that improve said system ... @Fatal Error: I see where you're going, and I agree to some degree. I don't mind the game being easy to pick up and play, but the fact of the matter is there's a noticeable power slide that goes with each new book published. ToB classes tend to be more powerful than the original base classes, and that's cool (since I tend to update and revise older classes to keep them in the running. Poor, poor, Fighter ^_^; ) but the problem here is that older-style monsters get outpaced by it. My options are either to revise the monster, or revise the CR of the fight ... both can result in a group getting killed. I've seen the difference a single feat change can make in a fight (our one DM swaps out Alertness and Toughness every time he sees them). Or, I suppose I could use tactics that completely negate our tougher group members, but that's cheap as hell and just annoys the players. As for the Ki gathering methods, I only just brainstormed them ... they are posted here so that I can get feedback (and not just *****ing about how they suck) and revise them into something workable. I understand that they aren't balanced or anything like that yet, but as time allows I plan to make them so. So, if you're just here to trash talk the ideas presented here, which is the impression I'm kinda getting, then kindly take it somewhere else. If I'm wrong, and you feel like helping, then great, just leave a suggestion or two and I'll be grateful. @Drachasor: This is not for a single, specific encounter. It's every encounter that involves this combat system. As I mentioned above, around 4 campaigns have been played with ToB, and these issues crop up in all of them. Strictly speaking, for my own, the EL for normal fights are within a step or two of the party level. For boss fights, I usually set the encounter at around 2 or 3 above party level (if it's not tough, it's not a good boss fight). Since ToB, EL of party level + 3 or more (note, that this is usually a single fight at this level ... I soften them up as I can beforehand) is generally needed to make the fight last more than a couple rounds. I use monsters, humanoids, or a mix, as fits the situation ... I've tried a bit of everything, in other words. @All: Alright, I've been thinking I'd like to somehow make use of the Key Skills for each discipline somehow (if you notice, only a handful of them are actually used for the disciplines). I've been thinking that maybe they should either be used to gather Ki (ala the skill checks mentioned in my previous post under the gathering methods) or perhaps have a minimum number of ranks needed to learn certain maneuvers, sorta like how magic users need minimum mental stats to learn certain spells. Any (constructive) thoughts? Edit: Ah, and almost forgot. Fatal, those Combat Leap Shock Trooper Barbs you mention don't exist in my games. Barbarians are a disallowed class in my games ... I mean, hell, even the designers acknowledge that the rage based guys are kinda unfair. Also, non-core feats and such require DM approval just so as to prevent those horrid kinds of combos. Lastly ... all of the things you mentioned require at least a feat or two, Martial Adepts can do the same without similar optimization.
fatal error 05-02-07, 05:10 PM	Well, one baseline you could go for would be to give every discipline the same base option for gathering Ki, and then expand from there. The base option I'm thinking of is making a skill check of the discipline's key skill, against something like a Standard action to make a check of DC 10 + Enemy CR (I never liked HD based things, since they vary wildly in a given CR). Success gives you a Ki point. You can add 5 to the DC to perform this as a Move action, add 10 to perform it as a Swift action. From there, you can add other forms of Ki gathering depending on the discipline.
Vashwood 05-02-07, 06:36 PM	Sounds like a good idea. I'd also like to have an alternate method of gathering Ki for each discipline, the kind of stuff that takes place in a normal fight, so that they don't always have to "waste" an action to gather points for their maneuvers. That was the original concept behind the first gathering methods ... as the battle grows more pitched and exciting, and as the stakes rise, they gain more points to unleash their maneuvers. Of course, as you pointed out, it's hard to balance them and retain flavor. If I recall, the base concepts that my friend was using was something like a point per hit for Tiger Claw, a point per attack dodged for either Setting Sun or Diamond Mind, and maybe something like a point per hit sustained for Stone Dragon. Some of them, like Shadow Hand and Desert Wind, are a bit harder to manage ... maybe, if it comes down to it, I could just slightly adapt or have some share gathering methods. For example, both Tiger Claw and Desert Wind revere speed and to some degree aggressiveness, so both gain Ki from landing strikes, but only gain Ki from strikes using the preferred weapons of that discipline. Or maybe Desert Wind would gain Ki from strikes when they were made during a move (ala Spring Attack) ... or something. Bah, I'll have to think about this a bit more. =\ Edit: Oh, and much obliged for the advice. =)
EonOmega 05-04-07, 07:12 PM	:OMG! So clerics AREN'T banned? Why? If Barbarians are banned, Clerics should certainly join their ranks. You. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) Really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bearsEndurance.htm) Think. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm) That. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) Clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictCriticalWounds.htm) Can't do everything and MORE that a barbarian can do? Hell, barbarians can't Cure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureCriticalWounds.htm), last time I checked, or even NEGATE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) the rage another barbarian HAS. Oh, and Remember, clerics get a full BAB. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)
Vashwood 05-04-07, 10:15 PM	I never said that. And as it's completely off topic, you prolly shouldn't have either. =\ We use Mystics rather than clerics. Now, if there's any other questions about my campaign or personal life, ask them now and get them outta the way ... I would rather like to get back to the topic at hand asap. Anyhow, here's a thought: how about a relatively easy to qualify for ki point generation method, but with a cap as to how many points you can gain at once per discipline ... maybe something like, say, you can gain a maximum amount of Ki per discipline equal to 1/5 your adept level (minimum 1) per round. Then, for the gathering methods ... Desert Wind: 1 point of Ki per 10 feet moved in a round. Devoted Spirit: 1 point of Ki per hit you (or an adjacent ally) take per round (or maybe for every so many damage you take per round) Diamond Mind: Honestly, no idea ... maybe just give them a point per round if they don't make a move action? Would kinda gimp them, but it fits the flavor, and Diamond Mind is prolly the most powerful discipline. Iron Heart: 1 point per hit you land. Setting Sun: 1 point per attack that misses you. Shadow Hand: Dunno ... maybe points for successful flanking attacks, or attacks against flatfooted enemies (maybe 2 points per attack, as this is a bit harder to manage?). Or maybe a point for not being attacked in a round? Stone Dragon: Maybe points dependent on damage dealt, or hits landed. Tiger Claw: A point per hit landed ... or maybe a point per miss? Makes sense if you consider that a rising anger and frustration fuels their attacks ... White Raven: Another hard one ... point per ally injured? a point for an ally's successful attack? points for flanking, or aid another attempts (not just them aiding you, but team-efforts of any kind, including you aiding them)? I'm trying to make it so that it's conceivable for an adept to gain at least one point in a discipline every round by acting out the discipline's flavor. Desert Wind adepts utilize movement to gather speed and hot Ki for their techniques. Diamond Mind takes a slower approach, analyzing and quietly building it's inner calm. Stone Dragon entrenches itself in iron-hard, confident Ki as it slowly wears down it's foes ... you know, that kind of stuff. Or, I guess, a less complex but also less interesting route would be to just reward people for using the preferred weapons of their disciplines by granting points per hit landed with them. This would mean you actually get some sort of benefit from using your school's weaponry ... but it also means you need alot of weaponry to use multiple schools, and also skews things in favor of sword and unarmed fighters. Troublesome ... Any thoughts?
Drachasor 05-04-07, 10:51 PM	I don't know how well this can work honestly. White Raven and an number of other disciplines have quite a few charge-based maneuvers. If you can't charge, then you can't use them. Unfortunately, if you have to build up points in combat, then most of these maneuvers are useless. Also, having separate pools for each discipline is a lot of work for the players (and especially the DM, especially if he is running multiple martial adepts). I think the easiest thing to do is just get rid of the core warrior options, and replace them with the Martial Adepts. I'd give a boost to low-level casters too. That should even things out quite well. Honestly, even then casters are far more powerful at high levels. Just because the fighter stinks is no reason to nerf any warrior class that comes along. I think you are going to have a very, very hard time making such dramatic changes to the martial adepts. Their powers don't scale individual, because a given martial adept trades in low-level abilities for higher ones. So his capabilities automatically scale with level. Additionally, their damage is not extreme compared to other good damage dealers. A martial adept is typically sacrificing his full attack to deal more damage. That means he makes one attack with a bonus, instead of many attacks. That makes combat run fast, and be more mobile and fun. Right now the ToB classes ARE balanced with the overall power level of classes in the PHB, but if you nerf them then you'll end up with another set of weak warrior-types. The game doesn't need anymore of those. I'd start rethinking how you are handling your encounters, honestly. We have martial adepts in the game I'm in, and they aren't killing everything super-fast. Maybe you should go to the DM board and ask for advice on this. -Drachasor
Vashwood 05-05-07, 01:09 AM	Duly noted, Drach. Moving on. Alright, I think I'm beginning to get a more solid picture of what I want here. Maneuvers are learned in quantities and fashions aforementioned in the various class descriptions. Once learned however, these maneuvers do not need to be readied or prepared in any fashion, and only require that a requisite number of Ki points be expended to be unleashed. Stances require no Ki to activate, but those granting supernatural effects require that at least a single point of their discipline's Ki be retained in order to maintain their effects. This may later change as I play test the new system ... I might require more Ki to be withheld for higher level stances, and I might require this for all stances (or at least review and alter which ones count as supernatural), or I might just scrap this bit altogether and make stances free. Ki: Martial adepts fuel their most devastating techniques and supernatural fighting styles with inner energy gathered during battle. Each discipline possesses it's own methods for gathering Ki, and each discipline pools points gathered by it's methods separately from the others. For example, points gathered by a Diamond Mind method cannot be used to activate maneuvers or sustain supernatural stances of the Shadow Hand discipline. An adept may only gather Ki for disciplines that he draws maneuvers from. He may gather a number of Ki points for each individual discipline equal to 1/5 of his initiator level per round (minimum 1), and may hold a maximum number for each discipline equal to his initiator level. Unused Ki points fade at the end of battle. Below is a list of the methods each discipline uses to gather Ki for it's maneuvers. Each time an initiator fulfills one of the methods below, he may add a point of Ki to that discipline's Ki Pool. In addition to the methods listed below, an adept may gather Ki for a discipline by making a skill check (DC 15)with that discipline's key skill as a standard action to gain a single point of Ki. If he beats the DC by 5 or more, he may make this check as a move action, and if he beats the DC by 10 or more, he may make this check as a swift action. Desert Wind Desert Wind adepts utilize speed and mobility to their advantage, whipping about their foes as a midsummer sirocco to strip them of all moisture and life. An adept of this discipline gains a point of Ki for every 10 feet he moves in a round. The key skill for the Desert Wind style is Tumble. Devoted Spirit To challenge a Devoted Spirit adept's faith is to make him stronger. Every blow struck against him and his allies merely stokes his fervor to new heights, and drives him to fight all the more fiercely. An adept may claim a point of Ki each time an ally is wounded in combat. The key skill for the Devoted Spirit style is Intimidate. Diamond Mind A Diamond Mind adept's calm clarity in the midst of violent chaos is his greatest weapon. Where others charge blindly into the melee, you observe and calculate, then strike your foes down with the speed of thought. A Diamond Mind adept may choose to forfeit his ability to take movement related actions (other than a 5 foot step) to gather a point of Ki. The key skill for the Diamond Mind discipline is Concentration. Iron Heart Iron Heart adepts draw strength from their mastery of arms itself. The feel of your blade striking home merely reinforces your complete confidence in your skills. Iron Heart adepts gain a point of Ki for each successful attack against an opponent. The key skill for the Iron Heart style is Perform: Weapon Drill. (changed to differentiate it from Stone Dragon. Another option you could use is Sleight of Hand, as Iron Heart is all about flashy moves and clever handiwork) Setting Sun All power fades with time, and Setting Sun adepts are those who await their foes when that time comes. Each failure on their part is just another step on the road to defeat. Setting Sun adepts gain a point of Ki every time an opponent misses them in combat. The key skill for the Setting Sun style is Sense Motive. Shadow Hand The Shadow Hand is at it's most terrifying when it's foes do not realize it's potential. If a Shadow Hand begins a turn and has not been the target of a hostile act (attacked, targeted by a spell, etc) in the previous round, he gains a point of Ki. Shadow Hand adepts also may gain a point of Ki when land a strike against a flanked or flat-footed opponent. The key skill for the Shadow Hand style is Hide. Stone Dragon Stone Dragon adepts are taught to emulate the mountain stone. Lesser beings may strike with axe and pick, but sooner or later they must face the resulting avalanche. Stone Dragon adepts gain a point of Ki for each time they are struck in combat. The key skill for the Stone Dragon style is Balance. Tiger Claw Fierce as a wolverine, quick as a snake, the Tiger Claw adepts call upon bestial fury to rend their foes limb from limb. Each failure only drives the hunter inside them to new heights of fury. For every failed attack a Tiger Claw adept makes against an opponent, he gains a point of Ki. The key skill for the Tiger Claw style is Jump. White Raven The White Raven value teamwork before all else. No matter how great the individual's skill, alone he will fail. White Raven adepts gain a point of Ki each time they or an ally uses a special attack action (Aid Another, Bull Rush, Charge, etc.). Further, they may also gain a point of Ki each time they or an ally delays their turn or readies an action. The key skill for the White Raven style is Diplomacy. Still far from done, but still progress, I think. I still have a bunch of ideas to pitch, such as revised feats, class features, etc. but I'm getting a bit tired, and have a campaign to prepare for. Tried to keep it as simple as I could and still retain the flavor I wanted, but might not have managed it ... ah well, plenty of time for that. Questions, comments, suggestions?