Toning down base saves. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Toning down base saves. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Killy
11-15-07, 07:49 AM When DMing a high level campaign there's always been a huge difference between multiclassed character's saves and singleclassed character's saves, let's take for example a halfling Rogue level 18 and a dwarven Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4, both are 18th level characters, both are perfectly possible builds, the later doesn't incur in multiclassing experience penalty, buth their base save bonuses are:

singleclassed rogue 18
Fort: +6
Ref: +11
Will: +6

multiclassed dwarven HoM 18
Fort: +18
Ref: +7
Will: +13

To compare those we will asume the 3 saving throws have the same value, so the first character has a total of 23 "Base Save Points", and the later has 38 "Base Save Points". You can even compare this multiclassed character with the singleclass with the best Base Saves: The Monk, at 18th level the monk class has the Following base saves:

singleclassed Monk 18
Fort: +11
Ref: +11
Will: +11

That's a total of 33 base saves points, and its the best you can get with a single class. The multiclassed character still has more, and its pretty unfair cause it shouldn't be like that.

Why is this? It's because the formula to calculate the Good Base Save Bonus is [class level / 2] + 2, so every time you get a 1st level in any class you gain the +2 as a bonus, it is my thought that this was intended to give some help to lower level characters, BUT, with the advent of prestige classes, multiclassing became the most usual way of building a character, so this bug started to bother (cause IT IS a design bug). The big problem with this is that multiclassed characters are pretty much inmune to some hazards that allows the bugged saving throw (in the example it's Fortitude and Will), if the DC of the saving throws are heightened to challenge those multiclassed characters the singleclassed characters will mostly fail under the same circumstances.

I have started a new house rule in my games, and it's working incredibly good cause multiclassed characters are beggining to show some respect for traps, poisons and enchantments, wich make the dungeons and combats more fun, good base save bonuses are now [class level / 2], yes, without the +2, but when creating a character every player has 4 base save points that can be set between the 3 saving throws.

Any thoughts?
Neutronium_Dragon
11-15-07, 08:30 AM That ends up benefitting the one-save classes and hurting the monk and favored soul. Not a good approach.

Unearthed Arcana (I think it was that book) had a fractional save progression system which essentially solved this issue, albeit a little differently.

However, if you're *just* concerned about the +2s, then simply rule that you only get one +2 per category. The fighter/rogue thus gets +2 to Fort and Reflex, but the Rogue/Bard still only gets +2/+2 to Reflex/Will, not +4/+2.
Killy
11-15-07, 09:12 AM That ends up benefitting the one-save classes and hurting the monk and favored soul. Not a good approach.
I actually thought of that, and give Monk and Favored Soul extra Base Save Points at levels 1, 10 and 20.

I know already of fractional saves, but find hard to keep track of them. And those don't totally solve the issue, anyway I purposely wanted to hurt the multiclassed characters a bit. Anyway with this variant feature, heavily multiclassed characters gets very similar base saves than singleclassed characters, and classes with one good save are not in total disadvantage either, it's working great.

In the example given in the first post (Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4) its bonus saves are:
Fort: +8
Ref: +5
Will: +7

That's a total of 20 + 4 save points with my house rule. The rogue of the same level gets 21 + 4, quite similar.
kuonji
11-15-07, 02:41 PM What you list is one of the reasons we tend to limit our games to 1 or 2 base classes and 1 PrC (if any).

But then there's still stuff like Paladin 3, Martial 4, Outcast Champion 5 which at level 12 gives you (assuming 18 Cha from base and items, add 1 to each save catagory per +2 cha; Watchful eye minor aura, resilient troops major aura):

Fort +16
Ref +11
Will +15

edit: Forgot to mention, this is counting only Cha from ability scores, no Dex, Con, or Wis modifiers.

But also gives your allies within 30' radius (via auras and class abilities, add +1 to reflex per +2 charisma gain (assuming auras listed above)):
+1 Fort
+4 Reflex
+6 Will

Worried about fort saves some, take the Demand Fortitude minor aura as your other minor aura so you can swap, or take Force of Will for will saves, or take one more martial level and have all 3 minor save auras for maximum assist power.

And you still have 5 or 6 more levels to play with before 18th (as in your example) and you are boosting your party quite well.

Honestly though, I think saves are one of the less abused mechanics by players, or at least in my experience they are. Their enemies often have really good saves, no reason the PCs shouldn't be able to compete on the save-o-meter as well.
deviknyte
11-15-07, 03:24 PM I would just enforce factional saves from UA. It's a great way to keep saves in check. It requires more math having to keep track of 2 base save bonuses per save, but it's a good fix for what your looking for. No, great fix.
ArochanoX
11-16-07, 08:41 AM I do like the fractional system too.

Easier and quicker solution would be to allow the good save's +2 only if the caharacter haven't had a good save progression in that save before. Or to be even more harsh: you get the +2 only at character level 1 - like you gain quadruple skill points only at level 1 and maximum Hp only at level 1. This makes decision of the first level even more important though.
Tequila_Sunrise
11-16-07, 12:42 PM I know already of fractional saves, but find hard to keep track of them. And those don't totally solve the issue, anyway I purposely wanted to hurt the multiclassed characters a bit. Anyway with this variant feature, heavily multiclassed characters gets very similar base saves than singleclassed characters, and classes with one good save are not in total disadvantage either, it's working great.
You find fractional saves hard to keep track of, but you don't find it hard to recalculate all good saves on a per class basis and in addition keep note of where everyone's 4 1st level save bonuses are? I myself find it easiest to use fractional saves and simply limit the +2 crusties to one per save type.

Whatever floats your boat, guy.
Killy
11-16-07, 12:50 PM You find fractional saves hard to keep track of, but you don't find it hard to recalculate all good saves on a per class basis and in addition keep note of where everyone's 4 1st level save bonuses are? I myself find it easiest to use fractional saves and simply limit the +2 crusties to one per save type.

Whatever floats your boat, guy.
Exactly. Calculate the fractional saves of the Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4 for me, cause I just did it with my house rule on the fly on my previous post and it was pretty easy.
ppirilla
11-16-07, 05:13 PM Look at the Star Wars Saga rules for inspiration.

Save = 10 + (1/2 for consistancy in D&D) character level + class bonus + ability modifier

Each class has +3 worth of bonuses to split up among the saves. A class with three good saves gets +1 to each, a class with two good saves gets +2 to one and +1 to the other. For classes with only one good save, I would suggest dropping the extra +1 for possible compatability balance issues.

Class Save Bonuses DO NOT STACK. So, say a Ranger gets +2 to Fort and +1 to Ref. Now he takes a level of fighter, which would give him +2 to Fort, but he already has that, so it doesn't change. If, on the other hand, he takes a level of Rogue, which will grant +2 to Ref, that betters his existing relfex bonus, so now his save bonuses are +2 Fort and +2 Ref (plus class level gains)
Tequila_Sunrise
11-16-07, 10:17 PM Exactly. Calculate the fractional saves of the Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4 for me, cause I just did it with my house rule on the fly on my previous post and it was pretty easy.

Fort: +11
Ref: +8
Will: +9

Easy as pie. Sweet, homemade, blueberry pie.
strenoth
11-17-07, 01:27 AM all have good fort saves, so 2 +9 = +11

ranger is good reflex, I don't beleive any one else is, so [2 +1] (ranger) + 5 (every one else =15, 15/3 = 5) = +8

I'm guessing Hammer has good will, so [2 +4] (cleric + hammer = 9 levels of good) + 3 (9 levels of bad) = +9

i don't bother actually adding up the fractions individually. just sort out hwo many levels of good & bad progression you have, it's that easy to short cut.
ragoftag
11-21-07, 12:38 PM If you use fractional saves, extend this to the Base Attack Bonus as well. I softens the blow for players who are just trying to get to a concept, not min/max. An Arcane Trickster bound player was delighted to pick up a +1 BAB when I did this, didn't even care about the save losses. A 5 (!) caster class was ticked though. but i do like ArochanoX's suggestion about level 1 limmit to a +2 bonus. Any thoughts about how PrCs would work? just another level?
navar100
11-24-07, 11:56 AM I don't think it's a problem. Multiclassing is self-correcting since by obviousness you are trading overall specialized ability power for diversity of abilities set. Saving throws are simply a perk (or disadvantage when a good save becomes a poor save or a poor save multiclasses into a poor save). Almost no one multiclasses just for the saving throws and multiclassing poor save into a poor save is not going to make them think twice. Players want the class/prestige class abilities, not the saving throws. For those rare few who really, really are into having the highest saving throws possible, they'll multiclass in any combination of paladin/monk/favored soul.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Killy 11-15-07, 07:49 AM	When DMing a high level campaign there's always been a huge difference between multiclassed character's saves and singleclassed character's saves, let's take for example a halfling Rogue level 18 and a dwarven Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4, both are 18th level characters, both are perfectly possible builds, the later doesn't incur in multiclassing experience penalty, buth their base save bonuses are: singleclassed rogue 18 Fort: +6 Ref: +11 Will: +6 multiclassed dwarven HoM 18 Fort: +18 Ref: +7 Will: +13 To compare those we will asume the 3 saving throws have the same value, so the first character has a total of 23 "Base Save Points", and the later has 38 "Base Save Points". You can even compare this multiclassed character with the singleclass with the best Base Saves: The Monk, at 18th level the monk class has the Following base saves: singleclassed Monk 18 Fort: +11 Ref: +11 Will: +11 That's a total of 33 base saves points, and its the best you can get with a single class. The multiclassed character still has more, and its pretty unfair cause it shouldn't be like that. Why is this? It's because the formula to calculate the Good Base Save Bonus is [class level / 2] + 2, so every time you get a 1st level in any class you gain the +2 as a bonus, it is my thought that this was intended to give some help to lower level characters, BUT, with the advent of prestige classes, multiclassing became the most usual way of building a character, so this bug started to bother (cause IT IS a design bug). The big problem with this is that multiclassed characters are pretty much inmune to some hazards that allows the bugged saving throw (in the example it's Fortitude and Will), if the DC of the saving throws are heightened to challenge those multiclassed characters the singleclassed characters will mostly fail under the same circumstances. I have started a new house rule in my games, and it's working incredibly good cause multiclassed characters are beggining to show some respect for traps, poisons and enchantments, wich make the dungeons and combats more fun, good base save bonuses are now [class level / 2], yes, without the +2, but when creating a character every player has 4 base save points that can be set between the 3 saving throws. Any thoughts?
Neutronium_Dragon 11-15-07, 08:30 AM	That ends up benefitting the one-save classes and hurting the monk and favored soul. Not a good approach. Unearthed Arcana (I think it was that book) had a fractional save progression system which essentially solved this issue, albeit a little differently. However, if you're just concerned about the +2s, then simply rule that you only get one +2 per category. The fighter/rogue thus gets +2 to Fort and Reflex, but the Rogue/Bard still only gets +2/+2 to Reflex/Will, not +4/+2.
Killy 11-15-07, 09:12 AM	That ends up benefitting the one-save classes and hurting the monk and favored soul. Not a good approach. I actually thought of that, and give Monk and Favored Soul extra Base Save Points at levels 1, 10 and 20. I know already of fractional saves, but find hard to keep track of them. And those don't totally solve the issue, anyway I purposely wanted to hurt the multiclassed characters a bit. Anyway with this variant feature, heavily multiclassed characters gets very similar base saves than singleclassed characters, and classes with one good save are not in total disadvantage either, it's working great. In the example given in the first post (Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4) its bonus saves are: Fort: +8 Ref: +5 Will: +7 That's a total of 20 + 4 save points with my house rule. The rogue of the same level gets 21 + 4, quite similar.
kuonji 11-15-07, 02:41 PM	What you list is one of the reasons we tend to limit our games to 1 or 2 base classes and 1 PrC (if any). But then there's still stuff like Paladin 3, Martial 4, Outcast Champion 5 which at level 12 gives you (assuming 18 Cha from base and items, add 1 to each save catagory per +2 cha; Watchful eye minor aura, resilient troops major aura): Fort +16 Ref +11 Will +15 edit: Forgot to mention, this is counting only Cha from ability scores, no Dex, Con, or Wis modifiers. But also gives your allies within 30' radius (via auras and class abilities, add +1 to reflex per +2 charisma gain (assuming auras listed above)): +1 Fort +4 Reflex +6 Will Worried about fort saves some, take the Demand Fortitude minor aura as your other minor aura so you can swap, or take Force of Will for will saves, or take one more martial level and have all 3 minor save auras for maximum assist power. And you still have 5 or 6 more levels to play with before 18th (as in your example) and you are boosting your party quite well. Honestly though, I think saves are one of the less abused mechanics by players, or at least in my experience they are. Their enemies often have really good saves, no reason the PCs shouldn't be able to compete on the save-o-meter as well.
deviknyte 11-15-07, 03:24 PM	I would just enforce factional saves from UA. It's a great way to keep saves in check. It requires more math having to keep track of 2 base save bonuses per save, but it's a good fix for what your looking for. No, great fix.
ArochanoX 11-16-07, 08:41 AM	I do like the fractional system too. Easier and quicker solution would be to allow the good save's +2 only if the caharacter haven't had a good save progression in that save before. Or to be even more harsh: you get the +2 only at character level 1 - like you gain quadruple skill points only at level 1 and maximum Hp only at level 1. This makes decision of the first level even more important though.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-16-07, 12:42 PM	I know already of fractional saves, but find hard to keep track of them. And those don't totally solve the issue, anyway I purposely wanted to hurt the multiclassed characters a bit. Anyway with this variant feature, heavily multiclassed characters gets very similar base saves than singleclassed characters, and classes with one good save are not in total disadvantage either, it's working great. You find fractional saves hard to keep track of, but you don't find it hard to recalculate all good saves on a per class basis and in addition keep note of where everyone's 4 1st level save bonuses are? I myself find it easiest to use fractional saves and simply limit the +2 crusties to one per save type. Whatever floats your boat, guy.
Killy 11-16-07, 12:50 PM	You find fractional saves hard to keep track of, but you don't find it hard to recalculate all good saves on a per class basis and in addition keep note of where everyone's 4 1st level save bonuses are? I myself find it easiest to use fractional saves and simply limit the +2 crusties to one per save type. Whatever floats your boat, guy. Exactly. Calculate the fractional saves of the Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4 for me, cause I just did it with my house rule on the fly on my previous post and it was pretty easy.
ppirilla 11-16-07, 05:13 PM	Look at the Star Wars Saga rules for inspiration. Save = 10 + (1/2 for consistancy in D&D) character level + class bonus + ability modifier Each class has +3 worth of bonuses to split up among the saves. A class with three good saves gets +1 to each, a class with two good saves gets +2 to one and +1 to the other. For classes with only one good save, I would suggest dropping the extra +1 for possible compatability balance issues. Class Save Bonuses DO NOT STACK. So, say a Ranger gets +2 to Fort and +1 to Ref. Now he takes a level of fighter, which would give him +2 to Fort, but he already has that, so it doesn't change. If, on the other hand, he takes a level of Rogue, which will grant +2 to Ref, that betters his existing relfex bonus, so now his save bonuses are +2 Fort and +2 Ref (plus class level gains)
Tequila_Sunrise 11-16-07, 10:17 PM	Exactly. Calculate the fractional saves of the Ranger 3 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 2 / Hammer of Moradin 6 / Dwarven Defender 4 for me, cause I just did it with my house rule on the fly on my previous post and it was pretty easy. Fort: +11 Ref: +8 Will: +9 Easy as pie. Sweet, homemade, blueberry pie.
strenoth 11-17-07, 01:27 AM	all have good fort saves, so 2 +9 = +11 ranger is good reflex, I don't beleive any one else is, so [2 +1] (ranger) + 5 (every one else =15, 15/3 = 5) = +8 I'm guessing Hammer has good will, so [2 +4] (cleric + hammer = 9 levels of good) + 3 (9 levels of bad) = +9 i don't bother actually adding up the fractions individually. just sort out hwo many levels of good & bad progression you have, it's that easy to short cut.
ragoftag 11-21-07, 12:38 PM	If you use fractional saves, extend this to the Base Attack Bonus as well. I softens the blow for players who are just trying to get to a concept, not min/max. An Arcane Trickster bound player was delighted to pick up a +1 BAB when I did this, didn't even care about the save losses. A 5 (!) caster class was ticked though. but i do like ArochanoX's suggestion about level 1 limmit to a +2 bonus. Any thoughts about how PrCs would work? just another level?
navar100 11-24-07, 11:56 AM	I don't think it's a problem. Multiclassing is self-correcting since by obviousness you are trading overall specialized ability power for diversity of abilities set. Saving throws are simply a perk (or disadvantage when a good save becomes a poor save or a poor save multiclasses into a poor save). Almost no one multiclasses just for the saving throws and multiclassing poor save into a poor save is not going to make them think twice. Players want the class/prestige class abilities, not the saving throws. For those rare few who really, really are into having the highest saving throws possible, they'll multiclass in any combination of paladin/monk/favored soul.