Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thelon Fairblade 03-19-04, 10:13 AM	I have looked over the totem barbarian variants, and can't seem to find any redeeming benefits. The Boar is okay, with increased DR. The Wolf is okay, retaining barbarian speed and gaining Improved Trip. But the others all sacrifice most of the barbarian's class abilities (speed, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense)! Granted, trap sense isn't a big deal, but UD and IUD are huge benefits, and the speed is very nice as well. The benefits the totem grants you are usually super lame, and/or are merely things you could have gotten with feats any way! Is there a dissenting viewpoint that can show me the advantage, beyond a nebulous "RP" aspect?
Salla 03-19-04, 11:08 AM	I'm afraid I can't do much beyond the 'nebulous RP' aspect ... a lot of it just depends on what it is you want to DO. The benefits may not be as good as (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, but it may be something you want more just because you like it better. (I actually think that uncanny dodge does less good for a Barbarian as it would for other classes, since Barbarians have enough hitpoints that getting caught flat-footed or flanked doesn't scare them as much as it does, say, a rogue, but that's another thread.) Going totem by totem, speaking for myself only: Ape: Power Attack for free is kind of nice, but I probably wouldn't take it because climbing doesn't come into play that often in games I'm in. Bear: Improved Grapple GOOOOOOD for me, and a +4 bonus when raging? I'd go there. Boar: Tough as nails, to be sure ... but not my style. Dragon: Here's some fun stuff. Blind-Fighting and the ability to scare people simply by existing. I'd take this one. Eagle: Spot may be the most useful (or at the very least, frequently used) skill in the game. Horse: This one I don't care for ... Endurance and Run aren't things I've ever taken unless I was gunning for a Prestige Class. Lion: Pretty cool if you like charging ... kinda wish the 2nd level ability was something other than a Hide bonus, though. Serpent: Poison saves good. Move Silently good. Improved Grapple VERY good. Improved Initiative so-so. A pretty good package for me. Wolf: Improved Trip better than Improved Grapple. Track's a nice freebie if you don't have a ranger; I'd take that one. Sometimes, it's not about power. If you're lucky as a DM, you'll get players who will take something that isn't as powerful as it could be just because they think it's cool. Another point is that power is dependent on the situation; the standard Jaguar barbarian really doles out the damage, yes, but in the right situations, any one of the other totems could be a better choice (invisible opponents? Bet you wish you were a Dragon barbarian).
Thelon Fairblade 03-19-04, 01:13 PM	Thanks for the reply and the in depth analysis!
bjorntfh 03-19-04, 01:19 PM	IMC we've gotg a serpent barb with whirling frenzy variant rage and TWF... She's using claw weapons (which I"ve counted as unarmed strikes for improved grapples) and she's INSANE in HTH. I don't runn hack and slash, but being able to grab and club anyone and keep them there is dangerous.
Marshall 03-20-04, 05:04 AM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade I have looked over the totem barbarian variants, and can't seem to find any redeeming benefits. Thats a fair description of them.... Personally, I'd go with "waste of paper." NONE of the bonuses given come close to the usefulness of (I)UD and extra speed. In fact, the whole section could have been done better in a method similar to the Monk variants. ie "Take these feats and get this bonus" And the base Barbarian isnt a "jaguar." Rage doesnt fit with that moniker. The base Barb is a "wolverine."
Salla 03-20-04, 08:37 AM	So WHAT if they aren't as powerful as Uncanny Dodge and the speed? Sometimes it's not about power; you take it 'cause you just LIKE it better. This gives players some choices and may let them take something they simply find more interesting, fun and different than Uncanny Dodge and Extra Speed. So, to recap ... More powerful? No. More interesting? Yes (subjectively). My opinion? :thumbsup:
Marshall 03-20-04, 02:46 PM	Originally posted by Salla So, to recap ... More powerful? No. More interesting? Yes (subjectively). My opinion? :thumbsup: So now you have a BRB that is demonstrably behind the power curve of the rest of the party. AND nearly indistinguishable from the FTR...
Masterful_Norg 03-20-04, 06:39 PM	Should we try to bring them up in power then, so as to better serve the purpose for which they were intended?
Count Arioch the 28th 03-20-04, 09:24 PM	Possibly. I think Dragon totem is a fair trade for those abilities, so that one is probably fine teh way it is, as it gives unique abilities that can't be duplicated elsewhere. Likewise, Climb speed could be quite useful, so I don't have a problem with Ape. I think it should be give an take. Don't give up abilities that can't be duplicated by feats, to get feats. the balance of that should be equal, in my opinion.
Tisner44 03-21-04, 01:25 AM	One of my players recently created an Ape and that climb speed is pretty nice in an area of heavy jungle and forest like the area they are in. Enjoyed as they pounced upon their foes from above...this is just a variant and not forced on anybody...if you don't like them then use the regular one... "the barbarian chases his foe through the forest and it climbs up a tree...as the barbarian slowly climbs after, it darts away and gone from sight...":( I love all of the variants especially for the PCs, because now they never know what an NPC might be able to do. Now they can't assume every barbarian will move faster...some may hit harder, grapple, see better, trip, or run faster. Flavor and RP is better the choices you have.:cool:
Marshall 03-21-04, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th I think it should be give and take. Don't give up abilities that can't be duplicated by feats, to get feats. The balance of that should be equal, in my opinion. Couldn't have(and didn't) say it better myself...
Greyman 03-21-04, 04:57 AM	The variants are variants.  You are not forced to use them, or even use them as they stand.  If you feel they are underpowered, then spruce them up a little.  For instance, perhaps the wold totem could grant scent as a fifth level ability? However, try them out as they stand first.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-21-04, 12:04 PM	That's good advice. the thing about UA is, that they're all variant rules. which means, if you use them, you have no obligation to keep them as written unless you like them as written. Try it out their way first though, to see what exactly feels right, and what doesn't. Oh, and thanks for the kind words, Marshall.
bitnine 03-21-04, 01:07 PM	All in all, I think that basic idea isn't all that bad, but I, like many others apparently, was a little underwhelmed by what I saw.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-21-04, 02:40 PM	What? A bitnine post without his trademark radical sarcasm (tm)? Are you not feeling well, or something? ;)
Marshall 03-21-04, 03:53 PM	Originally posted by Greyman The variants are variants Yes, but it still would have been better if they were well thought out variants.
MeepoTheMighty 03-21-04, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by Marshall Thats a fair description of them.... Personally, I'd go with "waste of paper." NONE of the bonuses given come close to the usefulness of (I)UD and extra speed. In fact, the whole section could have been done better in a method similar to the Monk variants. ie "Take these feats and get this bonus" Are you kidding? Improved Trip without having to take Expertise? Improved Grapple without needing Improved Unarmed Strike? Those are great benefits.
Greyman 03-22-04, 12:26 AM	Originally posted by Marshall And the base Barbarian isnt a "jaguar." Rage doesnt fit with that moniker. The base Barb is a "wolverine." Since the abilities of the rage tree aren't swaped out, wouldn't that make them all wolverines? It's the fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge features that mark the standard barbarian out as dedicated to the a jaguar totem. While those abilities may not actually scream jaguar, rage has nothing to do with the decision.
Marshall 03-22-04, 02:14 AM	Originally posted by Greyman Since the abilities of the rage tree aren't swaped out, wouldn't that make them all wolverines? No. Most of the other monikers at least make a pass at being "ferocious". Tho 'Horse' fits even less. It's the fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge features that mark the standard barbarian out as dedicated to the a jaguar totem. While those abilities may not actually scream jaguar, rage has nothing to do with the decision. Its that those abilites dont "scream Jaguar" AND that the class has rage and DR that get me to go "Jaguar?!?" Now that I think about it, wolverine doesn't fit that well either. Maybe "Mongoose" (And, No. I'm not going to suggest Jade Falcon, Steel Viper or Diamond Shark next...) A Jaguar would use Whirling Frenzy and give up DR for Tracking and Stealth Abilites....
Thelon Fairblade 03-22-04, 09:18 AM	Hmmmm, the boards seem to have eaten my post yesterday.... Salla: I wasn't expecting a power increase. I *did* expect power to remain the same. Loss of power means the rest of hte party suffers when you can't hold up your responsibilities (i.e. if you are functioning at level 5.5 instead of level 6, those CR 6 encounters are more dangerous). Count Arioch: exactly; don't give up something can't be duplicated with a feat to get something that can. The whole thing seemed like more a munchkiny way to get into certain PrCs easier, with a little flavor text. Come on, the Horse barbarian?
Mr. VanderMeer 03-22-04, 09:24 AM	Totem Barbarians - Sucktastic, or some redeeming benefit? I've looked at them and would say 'sucktastic'. However the basic idea is okay and with a little tweaking the idea might work.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-22-04, 09:55 AM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade The whole thing seemed like more a munchkiny way to get into certain PrCs easier, with a little flavor text. Come on, the Horse barbarian? I don't know, I thought that was actually a neat idea. A bit off in execution, but neat nonetheless. Kind of like the Rohirrim in Lord of the Rings, I'd call them horse barbarians. What I would do is make them more along the lines of horse riders, perhaps switching out a few abilities, and give them a horse animal companion, perhaps? If not, then something to do with riding horses.
moosekickedmysisterstoof 03-22-04, 03:13 PM	Personally, I like the whole totem idea. The ability to set your barbarian character apart from others is a fun and unique breath of fresh air that this game needs. I've been waiting for "wizards" to make a totem variant for sometime, and now I'm glad it's here. By the way, I've been conjuring up some variant totem ideas, though none of them are complete yet: .Walrus Totem : Toughness, Fortitude save bonus against cold damage, Swim Speed, etc... Shark Totem : Swim Speed, Blood Frenzy, Scent, etc... Rhinoceros Totem : Toughness, Powerful Charge, +2 Natural Armor, etc... Elephant Totem : Improved Overrun, +2 bonus to Strength, Power Attack, etc...
WhtKnt 03-22-04, 03:39 PM	FWIW, I love the totem variants and think that they should be made the standard for barbarians (though instead of basing them on animals, they might have better been based on the terrain the barbarian hails from, as is the case IMC). Maybe they need a little tweaking. I won't know until I've tried them out, but in the long run, I think it's a great idea.
bitnine 03-22-04, 09:28 PM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th What? A bitnine post without his trademark radical sarcasm (tm)?Yeah, I know. Usually people get to saying ridiculous enough things such that I get to use such. No one's more disappointed than myself, I must say. Are the totems good for grabbing feats without taking their prereqs? I'm sure that they are - and that you could probably figure ways to better qualify for other feats and PrCs when optimizing a character using such. However, all in all, while the totems didn't look like a bad idea, their particulars in and of themselves certainly didn't thrill me. However the basic idea - of taking a set of abilities and allowing them to be swappable as a variance, I really liked (as you might tell from my sig ;) ).
Salla 03-24-04, 09:11 AM	Originally posted by Marshall So now you have a BRB that is demonstrably behind the power curve of the rest of the party. AND nearly indistinguishable from the FTR... Well, yes, if you ignore the rage, and the skills, and the damage reduction, and the lesser armor proficiency, then yes, he's indistinguishable from the fighter. So, basically, other than the fact that they're completely different, they're identical.
DrMorganes 03-26-04, 01:08 AM	If you couple some of the totems with variant settings and/or racial location-based templates, I think they're quite useful. Ferinstance, as Salla mentioned, the Ape totem isn't particularly useful if climbing isn't a common occurance in your game. However, if you shift the setting into a Jungle setting and use the Jungle racial modifiers, an Ape barbarian suddenly becomes a little more attractive. I'm planning on using the Horse totem for a clan of plains nomads based on the Thrithings men of Tad Williams' Sorrow, Memory, and Thorn trilogy.
jedi8187 03-26-04, 06:54 PM	i liked the totems the only one i never got was horse(not exactly brb to me). I plan on making more as soon as i find time, i might steal the shark one mentioned earlier(gives the brbs near water a good idea), but if you like the general idea, but not the mechanics, just change the mechanics.
moosekickedmysisterstoof 03-27-04, 03:21 PM	Here's the shark totem as follows: (1st Level) Swim Speed: The barbarian gains a swim speed equal to half his base land speed. For example, a human barbarian with a base speed of 30 feet gains a swim speed of 15 feet. (2nd Level) Grapple Bonus: The barbarian gains a +2 bonus when grappling. (3rd Level) Improved Grapple: The barbarian gains improved grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet all of the requirements. (5th Level) Improved Swim Speed: The barbarian gains a swim speed equal to his base land speed. In the campaign I'm playing in now, I have a half-orc shark totem barbarian named Gash. I have a harpoon and spiked gauntlets as my weapons and coupled with whirling frenzy, I rock!
bitnine 03-27-04, 07:27 PM	Originally posted by moosekickedmysisterstoof (1st Level) Swim Speed: The barbarian gains a swim speed equal to half his base land speed. For example, a human barbarian with a base speed of 30 feet gains a swim speed of 15 feet. I have to say that in games that feature sea-oriented action, gaining a swim speed can be an incredible thing to have. Moving in water never having to make a check? Suddenly a little bit of armor doesn't look so bad, as you won't drown if you go overboard.
moosekickedmysisterstoof 03-28-04, 12:50 AM	Yup. My character wanted some shark-skin armor, so he got on a ship and harpooned a large sized one. It would've killed me if my DM hadn't been kind.
Factol Rhys 03-29-04, 10:33 PM	Has anyone made a barbarian that doesn't rage? I know it may sound dumb because it's their signature ability and all, but I wanted a barbarian that was more a stealthy hunter. Sort of like a ranger, but not so magicky or archer-ish and without favored enemies. I wanted to make a wood elf barbarian who would hunt you down with a greatspear and skewer you from the trees. Kind of a Tarzan sort of guy.
Tisner44 03-30-04, 12:50 AM	What abilities do you want? A fighter with the track feat. After that I'm not sure.
Mr. VanderMeer 03-30-04, 05:28 AM	Has anyone made a barbarian that doesn't rage? I actually dislike the rage ability. I've never seen Conan go Berserk. So, when I play a Barbarian (which is my favorite class) I actually explain the rage ability as a sort of extreme concentration on the battle. I call it Battle Focus, but that name is lame and I need a new one. Maybe somebody can give me a suggestion?
WhtKnt 03-30-04, 09:26 AM	Originally posted by Mr. VanderMeer I actually dislike the rage ability. I've never seen Conan go Berserk. So, when I play a Barbarian (which is my favorite class) I actually explain the rage ability as a sort of extreme concentration on the battle. I call it Battle Focus, but that name is lame and I need a new one. Maybe somebody can give me a suggestion? Why? Battle Focus sounds fine to me. In fact, I may use it myself. You're right that not all barbarians "rage." I think rage is just an abstract representation, however; not to be taken literally. Some barbarians actually go into a fiery rage, while others focus themselves intently on combat.
WhtKnt 03-30-04, 09:30 AM	Originally posted by Factol Rhys Has anyone made a barbarian that doesn't rage? I know it may sound dumb because it's their signature ability and all, but I wanted a barbarian that was more a stealthy hunter. Sort of like a ranger, but not so magicky or archer-ish and without favored enemies. I wanted to make a wood elf barbarian who would hunt you down with a greatspear and skewer you from the trees. Kind of a Tarzan sort of guy. I never imagined Tarzan as a barbarian, but that's an interesting angle. Back in 2E, I used Skills and Powers to come up with a Tarzan-like character (basically a ranger sans spells and with d10 hit dice), but I've not tried to create the character under 3.5 (or 3E, for that matter). It's an interesting challenge. I'll see what I can come up with and get back to you.
Factol Rhys 03-30-04, 08:09 PM	Alright, well I'll explain what I was talking about. I wanted to combine the abilities of a ranger and a barbarian. Basically, from the ranger, take Track, Wild Empathy, Woodland Tracker, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Camouflage. From the barbarian, take Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and better hit die. Or whichever of those balance the class.
Bluebrush 04-01-04, 10:21 AM	Originally posted by Mr. VanderMeer So, when I play a Barbarian (which is my favorite class) I actually explain the rage ability as a sort of extreme concentration on the battle. I call it Battle Focus, but that name is lame and I need a new one. In a campaign I used to play in, the barbarians worshipped a mystical dragon and had a connection to "The Dream" Raging was replaced by "Slipping into the dream" which made time slow down for the barbarian. Not sure how this was supposed to represent rage though. Sure, slowing down time would make you a more effective hitter, and better able to resist blows, but how would it represent the -2 to AC and actual stat bonuses? I don't think the DM modified those elements. Just the name. I left that game though, since it was boring as hell. (it took us half a year of travelling to get to the adventure site. Then another half back.) Maybe you could come up with a slight modification to the rage for your characters. Like one where you merely tap into your latent strength and exert yourself a bit more to make yourself stronger. No loss to AC, and you're still capable of intelligent actions, but you'd need more detrimental physical effects. Maybe you have sore muscles for a while, an hour or until you get some good rest for instance. So you take a strength penalty in addition to being winded. Or perhaps there's some backlash in the form of proportional HP loss. Like, d4 per hit die once rage ends. Normally it wouldn't matter to a barbarian, but this could kill them if they were in a very difficult fight. And if you bothered using rage, odds on it was a tough fight.
Factol Rhys 04-01-04, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by Bluebrush Or perhaps there's some backlash in the form of proportional HP loss. Like, d4 per hit die once rage ends. Normally it wouldn't matter to a barbarian, but this could kill them if they were in a very difficult fight. And if you bothered using rage, odds on it was a tough fight. Hit point loss is not a very good idea. It shouldn't actually damage the barbarian, because that wouldn't make sense for what he's doing. There is already something sort of like that in that he loses his temporary hit points from the Constitution boost, so if he rode out the end of the battle on bonus hit points, he'd collapse once they go away.
Qlay 04-13-04, 06:09 AM	Originally posted by Mr. VanderMeer I actually dislike the rage ability. I've never seen Conan go Berserk. So, when I play a Barbarian (which is my favorite class) I actually explain the rage ability as a sort of extreme concentration on the battle. I call it Battle Focus, but that name is lame and I need a new one. Maybe somebody can give me a suggestion? Conan so did RAGE in the novels. He lost himself in some blood mad frenzy quite a lot of times. Rage is just well, HARD fighting. Being angry and all.
Pystian 04-13-04, 06:38 AM	Originally posted by Mr. VanderMeer I actually dislike the rage ability. I've never seen Conan go Berserk. So, when I play a Barbarian (which is my favorite class) I actually explain the rage ability as a sort of extreme concentration on the battle. I call it Battle Focus, but that name is lame and I need a new one. Maybe somebody can give me a suggestion? I had a friend that refered to it as "getting all pissy". I'm not sure if that's an improvement though...
bitnine 04-13-04, 06:43 PM	Originally posted by Mr. VanderMeer So, when I play a Barbarian (which is my favorite class) I actually explain the rage ability as a sort of extreme concentration on the battle. I call it Battle Focus, but that name is lame and I need a new one.I generally try to consider base class abilities at the most abstract level possible so as to allow that class to fit a broad variety of character concepts. Rage, at its heart, is an ability to push yourself past your normal limitations for a brief amount of time; the ability is somewhat sparing and takes its toll on you, but allows you to surpass yourself. I'd allow each character (as noted in the PHB) to name the ability as appropriate to their character, though I might grimace if someone chose to call it "footpaddin'". It might be Blood Frenzy, Rage, Perfect Focus, Channeling the Ancients, or any other number of things that would be appropriate to said character.
Mr. VanderMeer 04-15-04, 10:43 AM	I like 'getting all pissy' but more for humorous purposes.
Asta Kask 04-16-04, 05:18 AM	Then there are the weird totems: Rabbit barbarian (can run fast, gets a bonus to Listen) Butterfly barbarian (develops strange, eye-like patterns on the back) Slug barbarian (moves at 5 feet per round, hefty bonus to AC) Kolibri barbarian (neets to eat his own weight in nectar every day) Chipmunk barbarian (can talk in a silly voices; +4 to Infuriate versus ducks) :D
Krelios 04-16-04, 07:57 AM	I have looked over the totem barbarian variants, and can't seem to find any redeeming benefits. Thats a fair description of them.... Personally, I'd go with "waste of paper." NONE of the bonuses given come close to the usefulness of (I)UD and extra speed. In fact, the whole section could have been done better in a method similar to the Monk variants. ie "Take these feats and get this bonus" Sometimes it's not about your next munchkin combat monger. Sometimes people roleplay the style or feel of a character and it's more important than how many seconds longer it takes them to kill something as compared to Bob the fighter. <Rant> It doesn't matter one bit if you are behind the power curve of the rest of the party if you enjoy your character. D&D is NOT about competing with your party, it's about adventuring WITH them. I'll even go so far as to say that while combat is perhaps the most heavily treated subject, it's also the least important. If it doesn't make for an entertaining story, what's the point? </Rant>
bitnine 04-16-04, 07:16 PM	I'll take that a step further and say that you should be penalized in your characters power and ability to contribute to the party in order to prove that you like something as a roleplaying concept that suits your character!
Eagle of the Star 04-27-04, 11:02 AM	I loved the totem barbarian idea right from the start. It can be very powerful too, given the right character concept. Just think about a half-ogre barbarian who takes bear totem. Incredible grapple checks, and he gains toughness as a bonus feat (allowing him to take the uber-feat Roll With It that much earlier -- plus it's a prereq for War Hulk). Not a bad trade off if you ask me. Wolf totem is cool too -- now your low-intelligence barb can Improved Trip all day long (esp. with Whirling Frenzy). All in all the versatility of the core barb may be sacrificed, but the totems are more specialized in certain cases. Also don't forget that this is the same book that gave us Whirling Frenzy -- the most incredible thing to happen to barbarians in living memory (I can't imagine a barb I make that won't use it).
Paraboombo 04-27-04, 06:09 PM	never mind
Cathon 04-27-04, 08:57 PM	I was playing around with a lawful barbarian concept for a bit for a campaign. Instead of Rage they would go "Into a Zone" and have increased Strength and Dexterity. It would need intense concentration, though, and they would have to concentrate on one task, no drinking potions, or switching weapons without it ending the zone (and causing usual fatigue problems). At the moment, since I've dropped alignment restrictions from the campaign, I'm considering making it a prestige class that allows you to convert rages to zones. (Barbarians are not actually barbs in the game, instead they descendants of the gods who can channel that divine essence into stat gains for a time.)
Nan Lung 04-28-04, 05:52 AM	Hmm. Seems like people agree that they're lacking in a bit of power. How come no one has offered a way to fix them up then, without maknig them overly powerful? I'm somewhat curious as to some of you will see as 'equal in power' compared to the normal barbarian.
Shifting Master 04-28-04, 05:45 PM	For those who are confused about why there is a horse totem: I think that Wizards were going for more of the American mustang than the thoroughbred horse. And if you don't like it, replace it with the following 2nd level: Run 3rd level: +2 Hide, Move Silently 5th level: Pounce and call it the Cheetah totem.
Xyplex 04-29-04, 02:12 AM	Hmm. Seems like people agree that they're lacking in a bit of power. How come no one has offered a way to fix them up then, without maknig them overly powerful? You took the words out of my mouth man. Let's look at a "Jaguar" Totem Barbarian first, to get a baseline. If you disagree with this analysis, essentially the rest of my post is going to be wasted ... although I would encourage other interpretations of the 'value' of these abilities that cannot be duplicated. 1st level - Fast Movement (+10 ft movement with restrictions of Medium Armour and / or load) There is a similar feat to this ... Dash from "The Complete Warrior" (+5 ft movement with Light Armour and / or load), and so Fast Movement is not really outside of the realm of possible feats ... I'd argue that it would be worth two feats. 2nd Level - Uncanny Dodge (keep Dex bonus to AC in most circumstances) Essentially this is an upgraded version of Blind Fight (Invisible creatures cannot take away your Dex bonus) to allow the Barbarian to keep the bonus when flatfooted. So I'd say that it's worth two feats. 3rd Level - Trap Sense (Level / 3 = Bonus to AC and Ref against traps) Split in two, I feel that each half of this is worth a feat ... the one has a bonus to Ref saves, but only against traps (Lightning Reflexes gives +2 for all Ref saves) ... the other has similarities to Mobility (+4 AC against Attacks of Opportunity), so I see an equivalence. The really nice thing about this is that it increases as one levels. Two feats. 5th Level - Improved Uncanny Dodge (Cannot be flanked) Basically this is an upgrade of Eyes in the Back of your Head from "The Complete Warrior" or "Sword and Fist" (Opponents do not gain flanking benefit). I'd say that it's worth two feats. ****** So total, most of the Totems should have in the order of an equivalent of eight feats (Eagles keep Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge so should only have four feat equivalents, Wolves and Horses keep the Fast Movement so should only have six feat equivalents, Lions keep the Trap Sense so should only have six feat equivalents). ****** (Just a side note ... I'm a little disappointed that there weren't any special names given for the various abilities that other Totems have)
Xyplex 04-29-04, 02:14 AM	Ape Totem 1st Level - Climb at Half land move speed. This is pretty nice when you break it down. 2 and 2/3rds of a Feat to get the +8 bonus to climb (+3 per Skill Focus ... although I would be the first one to admit that I see limited uses for Skill Focus), double one's normal climb speed (usually it's one quarter), retain Dex while climbing (kinda like Uncanny Dodge but more specific), and the option to take 10 if rushed or threatened (like the Rogue's Skill Mastery special ability). Since one can't normally take more than one Skill Focus, I'd argue that there could be an Improved Skill Focus that would give a +5 bonus in addition to the Skill Focus benefit. So that part is worth two feats. Combining the Taking 10 part and the retaining Dex while climbing, I'd say that'd be worth one feat. Finally doubling one's normal climb speed is a hard one to judge ... if done linearly one could apply the ruling I made above to Fast Movement and Dash, and say that each +5 of movement is a feat equivalent (although I would say +10 or even +15 because you're limited the form of movement). So let's say that this alone is worth four feats. 2nd Level - +2 to Intimidate Sigh ... this is worth half a feat ... Persuasive gives a +2 to both Bluff and Intimidate. I'll get back to this one. 3rd Level - Power Attack Simple ... one feat. 5th Level - Increase climb speed to land move. Since I waffled on whether or not the final part (increase in speed from quarter to half speed) should be +10 or +15 per feat equivalent, I'll make up for it here and say that this is worth two feat equivalents. So total we have seven and a half feats. The bulk of these are poured into the climbing, so unless you use that a lot it won't be worth a lot (I'm always disappointed when players and DMs forget the 3rd dimension). But we still have to rectify the bonus to intimidate. Change it to make the bonus the same as trap sense ... Level / 3 = Bonus to Intimidate. Useful in combat if the Barbarian remembers to Demoralize Opponents. That should bump it from half a feat equivalent to a full feat equivalent.
Xyplex 04-29-04, 01:18 PM	An update on the Ape Totem ... after thinking it through, and some disagreements with one of my long-time DM friends, I decided that the Ape Totem, even as modified, isn't quite enough. So ... although the Barbarian would likely be using the Take 10 feature a lot when climbing (so is unlikely to fall very often because of bad luck ... changing circumstances might make for a difficult situation though) ... add in the Monk Slow Fall progression (essentially Level x 5 = Distance that can be negated from falling damage). Further add Tumbling as a Class Skill. Thus the Ape Totem is about mobility ... not nessisarily quickly, but the Ape can go wherever she pleases.
Pagan priest 04-29-04, 06:36 PM	Now that you mention it, tumbling does seem like a natural fit for the ape totem. I like it.
Xyplex 04-29-04, 11:03 PM	Ape Totem Original 1st Level - Climb speed equal to half land move (can take 10 under any circumstance, +8 to climb checks, no loss of Dex Bonus to AC while climbing) 2nd Level - +2 to Intimidate checks 3rd Level - Power attack (for each point you take a penalty to hit gain a bonus to damage) 5th Level - Climb speed increases to full land move 'Fixed' 1st Level - Climb speed equal to half land move (can take 10 under any circumstance, +8 to climb checks, no loss of Dex Bonus to AC while climbing), Tumble becomes a class skill 2nd Level - +3 Intimidate (Skill Focus: Intimidate), Slowfall 10 ft 3rd Level - Power attack (for each point you take a penalty to hit gain a bonus to damage) 4th Level - Slowfall 20 ft, Mobility (+4 AC against movement related attacks of opportunity) 5th Level - Climb speed increases to full land move (Slowfall progression continues at 10 ft every 2 levels) Debateable number of feats in exchange for a debateable number of feats. I was working towards a Barbarian that had the ability to move wherever he pleased whenever he pleased. ****** Bear Totem Original 1st Level - Toughness (+3 HP) 2nd Level - Improved Grapple (+4 Grapple, does not provoke an attack of opportunity) 3rd Level - Great Fortitude (+2 Fort saves) 5th Level - +4 Grapple while raging 'Fixed' 1st Level - Improved Toughness (+1 HP / Level) 2nd Level - Improved Grapple (+4 Grapple, does not provoke an attack of opportunity), Improved Unarmed Strike (considered armed even when unarmed) 3rd Level - Level / 3 = Bonus to Fort saves, Hibernation *New Ability* (the Barbarian goes into a catatonic slumber for up to 1 hour / level which has the same effect as Delay Poison and if maintained for a continuous period of at least 8 hours, has the same effect as the Fast Healing feat ... however during this sleep the Barbarian is helpless, and upon waking (either by slapping, wounding, or after allotted time), is fatigued for 1 minute). 4th Level - Grapple Mobility *New Ability* (you retain your Dex bonus to AC while grappling) 5th Level - Earth's Embrace (when pinning if you remain immobile you can do an extra 1d12 damage) Four feat equivalents to eight feat equivalents. Focus has shifted severely to grappling with two new abilities to add flavour. ****** Boar Totem Original 1st Level - Diehard (automatically stabilize, partial actions while below 0 HP) 3rd Level - +2 rounds to Rage 7th Level - +1 DR 'Fixed' 1st Level - Endurance (+4 checks and saves to resist non-lethal damage), Diehard (automatically stabilize, partial actions while below 0 HP) 2nd Level - Improved Bull Rush (+4 to bull rush, does not provoke an attack of opportunity) 3rd Level - Extend Rage (+5 rounds to rage) 4th Level - Fleet of Foot (can change direction up to 90 degrees while charging) 5th Level - Improved Overrun (+4 to overrun, does not provoke an attack of opportunity) 6th Level - Shock Trooper [Tactical] (change direction while bull rushing, bull rush an opponent into another opponent trying to trip both) 7th Level - Greater Resiliency (+1 DR) Two and a half feat equivalents to eight feat equivalents. The entire concept of a boar's attack, by slamming itself into it's opponent was hopefully reflected in the addition of bull rush, overrun, and such feats. ****** Dragon Totem Original 1st Level - Blindfight (melee attacks that miss due to concealment get to check concealment again, invisible melee attackers do not make you lose your Dex bonus, move at ¾ speed in darkness or poor visibility rather than ½) 2nd Level - +2 vs Paralysis and Sleep 5th Level - Frightful Presence (Will save vs DC 10 + ½ Barbarian level + Cha modifier only if you have fewer HD or levels than the Barbarian or be shaken, range 30 ft whenever Barbarian attacks, charges, or otherwise is threatening, duration 5d6 round) (note, I had to make a few assumptions for range, duration and effect as they are not listed in either the Dragon Totem or Frightful Presence listings) 'Fixed' 1st Level - Blindfight (melee attacks that miss due to concealment get to check concealment again, invisible melee attackers do not make you lose your Dex bonus, move at ¾ speed in darkness or poor visibility rather than ½) 3rd Level - Level / 3 = Bonus to save vs. Paralysis and Sleep effects 4th Level - Blindsight 5ft Radius 5th Level - Modified Frightful Presence (Will save vs DC 10 + ½ Barbarian level + Cha modifier only if you have fewer HD or levels than the Barbarian or be shaken, range 30 ft when Barbarian chooses and also attacks, charges, or otherwise is threatening, duration 1d6 round, any particular victim can be affected three times a day by a Barbarian's Frightful Pressence so three successful saves or failed saves will grant immunity - the Barbarian may choose when to try to scare any particular individual or group using the methods listed above) 13th Level - Enhanced Frightful Presence *New Ability* (if the victim fails their save against Frightful Presence, they are panicked for 1d6 rounds, then shaken for 1d6 rounds) A difficult one to balance ... I gauged that the Frightful presence ability was worth four feat equivalents (it has a similar effect to Kiai Shout, but is usable unlimited times per day without costing an action and has a longer duration). Otherwise not much in the regard for changes. Added the Enhanced Frightful Presence (inspired by Greater Kiai shout) and Blindsight. To be clear about the Modified Frightful Presence and Enhanced Frightful Presence ... the Barbarian chooses when to activate this ability, and can only do so three times for any given individual ... however once Enhanced Frightful Presence kicks in, the Barbarian may choose to 'interrupt' the shaken period and try to force the victim to become panicked again. Failure means that the original shaken period plays out as normal. ****** Eagle Totem Original 1st Level - +2 Spot 2nd Level - Uncanny Dodge (retain Dex bonus to AC if flatfooted or if attacked by an invisible attacker) 3rd Level - Lightning Reflexes (+2 Ref Saves) 5th Level - Improved Uncanny Dodge (can no longer be flanked) 'Fixed' 1st Level - +3 Spot (Skill Focus: Spot), Spot becomes a class skill 2nd Level - Uncanny Dodge (retain Dex bonus to AC if flatfooted or if attacked by an invisible attacker) 3rd Level - Level / 3 = Bonus to Ref saves 5th Level - Improved Uncanny Dodge (can no longer be flanked) 6th Level - Raptor School [Tactical] (+2/+4 damage if you make a DC 15/25 jump check after charging or dropping 10 ft onto an opponent, distract opponent with clock as a standard action then feint - if successful the opponent is flat footed for your next attack, for each round observing a target (while taking no other actions) gain +2 to hit and damage (max +6)) Five and a half feat equivalents to eight feat equivalents. I was uninspired as to what special abilities an Eagle Totem should receive so I stuck to basics. ****** Horse Totem Original 1st Level - Fast Movement (+10 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) 2nd Level - Run (Run at x5 normal speed, +4 running jump checks) 3rd Level - +2 Handle Animal and Ride 5th Level - Endurance (+4 on checks or saves to resist non-lethal damage) 'Fixed' 1st Level - Fast Movement (+10 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) 2nd Level - Run (Run at x5 normal speed, +4 running jump checks), Mobility (+4 AC against movement related attacks of opportunity) 3rd Level - Animal Affinity (+2 Handle Animal and Ride) 4th Level - Spring Attack (Move before and after melee attack), Ride-By attack (Move before and after a mounted charge) 5th Level - Endurance (+4 on checks or saves to resist non-lethal damage) Five feats equivalents to eight feat equivalents. I couldn't decide if the Horse Totem is trying to become like a horse (like other Totems match their animals) or use a horse, but the Spring Attack and Ride-By attack allow flexibility both ways ... skirmishers if I've ever seen them. ****** Lion Totem Original 1st Level - Run (Run at x5 normal speed, +4 running jump checks) 2nd Level - +2 Hide 3rd Level - Trap Sense (Level / 3 = Bonus to AC and Ref save vs. Traps) 5th Level - +2 damage when charging 'Fixed' 1st Level - Run (Run at x5 normal speed, +4 running jump checks), Hide becomes a class skill 2nd Level - +3 Hide (Skill Focus: Hide), Improved Initiative (+4 on initiative checks) 3rd Level - Trap Sense (Level / 3 = Bonus to AC and Ref save vs. Traps) 4th Level - Two Weapon Fighting (reduce two-weapon fighting penalties by 2) 5th Level - +2 damage when charging 6th Level - Emblazoned Charge *New Ability* (when charging you may make a Full Attack action at the end of your charge) Four and a half feat equivalents to eight feat equivalents. I tried duplicating the Lion's pounce ability with Emblazoned Charge, and their rake with the Two Weapon Fighting. I thought that the Improved Initiative would go hand in hand with the bonus to Hide (attack from concealment and gain advantage during any combat). Essentially an offensive Totem. ****** Serpent Totem Original 1st Level - +2 save vs. Poison 2nd Level - +2 Move Silently 3rd Level - Improved Grapple (+4 on grapple checks, does not provoke attacks of opportunity) 5th Level - Improved Initiative (+4 on initiative checks) 'Fixed' 1st Level - Lightning Reflexes (+2 Ref Saves), Move Silently and Hide become a class skills 2nd Level - +3 Move Silently (Skill Focus: Move Silently), +3 Hide (Skill Focus: Hide), Prone Attack (no penalties from attacking while prone, may become standing upon successful melee attack, attackers gain no bonus to attack you while you are prone) 3rd Level - Level / 3 = Bonus to save vs. Poison. 4th Level - Sneak Attack 1d6 6th Level - Poison Use (does not accidentally poison oneself when applying poisons) 8th Level - Sneak Attack 2d6 Three feat equivalents to eight feat equivalents, and a lot of changes along the way. While I think the original Serpent Totem was trying to replicate a Constrictor snake, I felt that was already covered by the Bear Totem (grappling experts), so I struck out with the idea of it being like a Viper, with attribute damaging effects. After that idea made the Serpent look too much like a Monk, I tried going with a Rogue cross and it seems to look better to me. ****** Wolf Totem Original 1st Level - Fast Movement (+10 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) 2nd Level - Improved Trip (+4 on trip attempts, does not provoke an attack of opportunity, immediately get to attack successfully tripped opponents) 5th Level - Track 'Fixed' 1st Level - Fast Movement (+10 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) 2nd Level - Improved Trip (+4 on trip attempts, does not provoke an attack of opportunity, immediately get to attack successfully tripped opponents), Improved Initiative (+4 on initiative checks) 3rd Level - Combat Reflexes (gain additional attacks of opportunity equal to Dex bonus (minimum 1), allows attacks of opportunity while flat footed) 4th Level - Improved Flanking *New Ability* (You gain a +4 to attack when you flank an opponent as opposed to the regular +2) 5th Level - Track 6th Level - Exhaust Opponent (After attacking a specific opponent three rounds in a row, each additional round requires a Fort save vs DC 15 + 1 per round after the third round, or they suffer 1d6 subdual damage from exhaustion)
Nan Lung 04-30-04, 12:54 AM	Hmm, these seem a bit better, but I'll just make a few comments in point form, and in no order (Don't blame me, blame ADD :P) I'd probaly change your Earth's Embrace to the one in the OA book. If the person was using the Vitality and Woulds rules, that would have to be changed. Mayhaps changed to next damage die? I like that you used the Extended Rage from Masters of the wild. Seems more logical to get the full feat, rather than the 'less than a half' of a feat. I dislike the Improved Toughness. I'd just keep it as Toughness, since 'some' people already use that houserule, and it keeps thing simple for the other systems (like once again, Vitality and Woulds). I'd want to replace Hibernation with Close Quaters Fighting, simpley to keep up the grappler aspect. I'd change the Wolf's Improved Flanking to the Dual Strike feat from S&F. That's all for now. Now to finish dusting my room. *waddles off*
Pagan priest 04-30-04, 03:56 PM	Before these revisions, I couldn't see any reason to use any of the totems. Now, I want to play them all. I do agree, somewhat, about the bear having close quarter fighting rather that hibernation. While I can see good reasons either way, going with the less supernatural abillity seems better. Of course, that could just be echos of 1 e coming back yet again.
Shaftiel 05-01-04, 01:26 AM	Originally posted by Pagan priest Before these revisions, I couldn't see any reason to use any of the totems. Now, I want to play them all. Of course you do. They all crush the original barbarian. Xyplex, I appreciate the fact that you took the initiative to make the changes... c'mon though, some of these are absurdly powerful. 5 level PrC type powerful (speaking of which, a couple of them would be good PrCs). Going by your own point system, a bbn (or rogue) should be able to give up the Uncanny Dodge series for SIX bonus combat feats. No offence, but that seems kinda nuts. Look at it this way: by your system, you could make a: Completely Broke Bbn 1. Fast Movement, Rage 1/day, Bonus Feat 2. Bonus Feat 3. - 4. Bonus Feat, Rage 2/day 5. - 6. Bonus Feat 7. DR 1/- 8. Bonus Feat, Rage 3/day 9. - 10. Bonus Feat, DR 2/- And there you have it: an uber fighter bbn, all the bonus feats but better HD and more skill points... Figured I should try to make a useful suggestion (criticism is easy), so looking over the templates in UA they set Fast Movement + Unc Dodge tree = 3-4 Feats total, depending on how good the replacement feats are (compare Wolf, which gets 2 feats, to Horse, which gets 3). This actually seems about right to me; the problem isn't that they need more Feats, it's that they need class abilities that stack with everything (like the ones that they're giving up) instead of bonus Feats. To just take a stab at one: Horse 1st Level - Fast Movement (+10 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) 2nd Level - Run (Run at x5 normal speed, +4 running jump checks) 5th Level - Endurance (+4 on checks or saves to resist non-lethal damage) 6th Level - Faster Movement (+20 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) 12th Level - Faster Movement (+30 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) 18th Level - Faster Movement (+40 ft while wearing Medium armour or carrying a Medium load) Run and Endurance are both booty feats, so I'd say they are worth 1.5 feats together. Greater Fast Movement is worth... maybe... 1-1.5 feats, if only because it comes very slowly (most people will multiclass before getting too far in it) and you already have normal fast movement. So all together this is 2.5 to 3 bonus feats. More importantly, though, you get a unique class ability - really high speed - that stacks with everything in exchange for your Unc. Dodge. Oh, and watch out Pounce (the 6th level Lion ability). I'd change it to once/encounter. The reason that different versions of it keep drifting in and out of the books is because it looks so cool but can easily break a game. Heck, it's an Epic feat... -Shaftiel
Xyplex 05-01-04, 02:10 AM	I'd like to start by saying "Thank you Shaftiel for your observations" ... and hope that this doesn't become either personal or abusive ... all I really wanted to do was to see if I could improve the Totems as they stand, because compared to a standard Juguar, they suck (except for, IMO, Dragon, which, as someone has already pointed out, has a characteristic that, like the Uncanny Dodge 'track', is unrepicatable by Feats ... something I found out is not entirely true, as Kiai shout has a similar if much more limited effect). ***** Going by your own point system, a bbn (or rogue) should be able to give up the Uncanny Dodge series for SIX bonus combat feats. Actually no ... I did the numbers for that at the top of my first post and came out with the following. Uncanny Dodge = 2 Feats ... I've been thinking about this one, and in retrospect it should be worth 1.5 feat equivalents ... Blindfighting gives you the ability to retain your Dex bonus when attacked by invisible Melee attackers (but also gives an increased movement in the dark, which is IMO, neither here nor there, and the ability to roll again if you miss an opponent due to concealment) ... and no other feat gives you the ability to avoid been flatfooted, so I figured that was worth a full feat (that is half a feat equivalent because it has a bit of Blindfighting, and a full feat equivalent because of the ability to avoid being flatfooted). Improved Uncanny Dodge = 2 Feats ... Eyes in the Back of your head eliminates the bonus that someone gets for flanking you (but doesn't eliminate a Thief's ability to sneak attack you ... and with all the PrC and a few main classes with this ability, I see this as being significant, so worth another feat). So the Uncanny Dodge 'track' is worth 3.5 feats total (after my revision), if you try to replicate it with existing equivalent feats. ****** As for the others ... Fast Movement = 2 Feats ... the comparable feat is Dash, which (in light armor) one moves an additional 5 ft. So, double the speed, and increase it to medium armor (and load) and I figure that's worth another feat. Trap Sense = 2 Feats ... using Lightning Reflexes as a base example, it gives you a +2 to Reflex saves under all conditions. TS gives you a bonus to your Reflex save which over the course of your career rises to +6 Reflex save vs one particular thing (I usually look at the 8-12 character levels for 'average', so that would be about +3.5). The only similar one I found for increasing one's AC is with Mobility, which under certain circumstances increases one's AC ... so they're about similar (+4 vs. +3.5). Both are worth one feat on their own. ****** I guess one of the points I was trying to make here is that using Feat Equivalents, the Jaguar Totem has a lot going for it. Perhaps my error was in making each of the other Totems so specialized ... Jaguar has something genericaly good (run speed), and two defensive characteristics designed for specific situations (Traps and Flanking). But honestly I have difficulty understanding why they wouldn't come out and give a full feat for some of these things ... or give the Totem's that skill as a class skill. I mean what good is +2, if you can't really improve it more than that? +3 is the standard for Skill Focus, and if it's supposed to be so important, it should also become a class skill. +2 Rounds to Rage, when they have a feat in S&F and CW that gives +5 Rounds to Rage? It just seems like the gloves were put on when these options were designed. If the Jaguar is meant to be one amoung equals, than make it one amoung equals. Don't make it stand out as being the choice one, and the others as optional AND suboptimal. The entire point of UA is that everything is optional, so put everything on the same playing field. ****** I'll look them over again with the thought I noted above (that the Jaguar really isn't good at one thing and all three 'feats' are not related well) and try it again.
Xyplex 05-01-04, 02:29 AM	And there you have it: an uber fighter bbn, all the bonus feats but better HD and more skill points... And sorry, I forgot about this one ... Yes Barbarians pretty much trump Fighters most of the time. At least as I've ever built either ... Fighters, IMO, were designed as a base class upon which other classes were designed. And, like in figureskating, they give low marks to the guy who comes first in case they want to give higher marks to the guy who goes later. Just because the feats are chosen for you (hello Monk) does not mean that the character should get more Feats. A well balanced character, such as the Monk, Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian, don't really have 'holes' in their 'build' ... unlike what can easily happen with Fighters (consider a Fighter who wants to be able to do the Ranger bit with Two Weapons ... ignore the base feats that either class gets for just having levels, like the ones you pick up at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc. because both Ranger and Fighter would get those ... 1 for Track, 3 for 2 Weapon fighting, 1 for Endurance ... so he could do that much by 11th level ... at the same time Rangers have better saves, more skills, less HP, lighter armor, Favored Enemies, spells, an animal companion, wider skill selection, special abilities like Woodland stride and Swift Tracker ... and the big one, Evasion). So even under the assumption that the Uncanny Dodge is worth 6 feat equivalents, having a Fighter with that kind of set of HP, skill points, Faster movement, Rage, DR ... seems to balance well against the Ranger noted above. ****** And another question ... what are your thoughts WRT the value, in Feat Equivalents, for Fast Movement and Trap Sense? I suggested 2 FEs for both (as noted in my previous post). ****** I'd like to appologize for taking this thread off of the "Totems" and into a realm of "Fighters as weaklings" ... I suppose that it is somewhat inevitable to compare everything to the Fighter because, like I said, they are the 'base class' around which the others were built.
Shaftiel 05-01-04, 12:31 PM	Originally posted by Xyplex I'd like to start by saying "Thank you Shaftiel for your observations" ... and hope that this doesn't become either personal or abusive ... No, thank you. I took a stab at one, you did all of them. Despite the strong words people use, in the end there's always someone who disagrees on whether or not almost every class is 'balanced.' I was trying to look at not only how many feats it would take to 'buy' the abilities but also how many feats you would actually be willing to spend to get them. There difference is... well, look at Trap Sense. Your logic for setting it a two feats makes sense (a +3 Reflex, +3 AC feat vs. Traps seems about right) but no one would ever spend a second feat on it. Very few people would buy it even if it was one feat, especially as it's tied to class levels. And it is very unlikely to affect game balance so increasing it (the feat version) in power seems fine. I'd say it's definitely worth less than 2 feats. Uncanny Dodge = 2 Feats ... I've been thinking about this one, and in retrospect it should be worth 1.5 feat equivalents ... Improved Uncanny Dodge = 2 Feats ... Eyes in the Back of your head eliminates the bonus that someone gets for flanking you... I mostly agree, but I'd also put Imp Unc Dodge at 1.5 feats. If anything, IMHO Unc Dodge is actually better. Never getting flanked is good; never getting caught flat-footed/stomped by invisible attackers is great. Eyes in the Back of Your Head is an underpowered feat, so it's kinda like comparing it to Run. Fast Movement = 2 Feats ... the comparable feat is Dash, which (in light armor) one moves an additional 5 ft. So, double the speed, and increase it to medium armor (and load) and I figure that's worth another feat. Same thing, I'd say 1.5 feats. 99% of the time Dash is a terrible feat. Yes, this is the toughest to give up for a Bbn variant, but saying that it's equal to Power Attack & Cleave (for example) just seems like too much. Trap Sense = 2 Feats ... Here is where we disagree. I think trap sense is worth, for a Bbn, only about 1/2 a Feat. For a Rogue I'd say a full feat but in my experience it almost never has any affect on a Bbn character. And it scales really, really slowly. I guess one of the points I was trying to make here is that using Feat Equivalents, the Jaguar Totem has a lot going for it... It just seems like the gloves were put on when these options were designed... Yes, but I don't think by as much as you do. And it's always easier to increase the power of a class later than to try and take it away (as I'm sure you know). I'll look them over again with the thought I noted above (that the Jaguar really isn't good at one thing and all three 'feats' are not related well) and try it again. Oh wow, I hadn't even thought of that. I think you're right. That's probably my main problem - by giving them a series of related abilities you were making them Prc-types and overly attractive for min/maxing. Anyway, anything you want to do is very, very appreciated, even if you end up ignoring me :P Keep up the good work! -Shaftiel (Oh, and I think Fighters are underpowered too...)
Patrick Draken-Korin 01-04-06, 06:00 PM	i just remembered this old thread, as i was working on my own barbarian totems. i'm posting my results, if anyone cares. Ape Totem: 6 (or 7 in a climbing heavy campaign) = 6.5 feats Level 1; climb speed (1/2 land speed, can take 10 while climbing, +8 on climb checks, not unbalanced while climbing), tumble becomes a class skill. Level 2; Skill Focus (intimidate) feat. Level 3; Power Attack feat, Slow Fall 10ft (increase by +10ft every 3 levels. At level 30, an ape barbarian can slow fall any distance rather than 100ft). Level 4; Mobility feat. Level 5; climb speed (full land speed). Bear Totem: 6.5 feats Level 1; Toughness feat, Athletic feat. Level 2; Improved Grapple feat. Level 3; Great Fortitude feat, Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Level 4; +2 bonus on grapple checks while raging (increases to +4 at level 8, then to +6 at level 16). Level 5; not unbalanced while grappling. Boar Totem: 6 to 6.5 feats Level 1; Endurance feat, Diehard feat. Level 2; Improved Bull Rush feat. Level 3; Extend Rage feat. Level 4; +2 bonus on bull rush checks while raging (increases to +4 at level 8, then to +6 at level 16). Level 7; base DR of 2/-. Dragon Totem: 6 to 6.5 feats Level 1; Blind-Fight feat, gains 6 skill points per HD. Level 2; +2 bonus on saves against paralysis and sleep (increases by +2 every six levels). Level 4; 5ft radius blindsense (increase to 10ft radius at level 8, increase to 15ft at level 16). Level 5; frightful presence (opponents within 30ft that have fewer HD than the dragon barbarian that see it raging must make a will save [DC 10 + 1/2 it’s barbarian HD + it’s charisma mod] or be shaken for 3d6 rounds. An opponent that succeeds the will save can’t be affected for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting effect.) Eagle Totem: 6.5 feats Level 1; Skill Focus (spot) feat, Quick Draw feat, spot becomes a class skill. Level 2; uncanny dodge, Point Blank Shot feat (only applies to thrown weapons). Level 3; Far Shot feat (only applies to thrown weapons). Level 4; Precise Shot feat (only applies to thrown weapons). Level 5; improved uncanny dodge. Horse Totem: 6 feats Level 1; fast movement, Mounted Combat feat (only applies with equine creatures). Level 2; Run feat, Skill Focus (ride) feat. Level 3; Animal Affinity feat (only applies with equine creatures). Level 4; Endurance feat. Level 5; Spring Attack feat, Ride-by Attack feat (only applies with equine creatures). Jaguar Totem: 6.5 to 7 feats Level 1; fast movement, Athletic feat. Level 2; uncanny dodge. Level 3; trap sense +1 (increases by +1 every three levels). Level 4; Track feat. Level 5; improved uncanny dodge. Lion Totem: 6 to 6.5 feats Level 1; Run feat, hide and move silently become class skills. Level 2; Stealthy feat, Improved Initiative feat. Level 3; trap sense +1 (increases by +1 every three levels). Level 4; Spring Attack feat. Level 5; +2 damage after a charge. Porpoise Totem: 6 (or 7 in a swimming heavy campaign) = 6.5 feats Level 1; swim speed (1/2 land speed, can take 10 while swimming, +8 on swim checks), hold breath (can hold breath for 2x as long as normal creatures of that race; usually 4x constitution score). Level 2; Blind-Fight feat, Alertness feat. Level 3; Endurance feat. Level 4; 10ft radius blindsense (increase to 20ft radius at level 8, increase to 30ft radius at level 16, only applies while swimming). Level 5; swim speed (full land speed). Rabbit Totem: 6.5 to 7 feats Level 1; fast movement, Stealthy feat. Level 2; Run feat, Mobility feat. Level 3; trap sense +1 (increases by +1 every three levels). Level 4; Endurance feat. Level 5; Spring Attack feat. Rhinoceros Totem: 6.5 feats Level 1; Toughness feat. Level 2; Improved Bull Rush feat. Level 3; Power Attack feat. Level 4; +2 bonus on bull rush checks while raging (increases to +4 at level 8, then to +6 at level 16). Level 5; +2 damage after a charge. Level 7; base DR of 2/-. Shark Totem: 6 (or 7 in a climbing heavy campaign) = 6.5 feats Level 1; swim speed (1/2 land speed, can take 10 while swimming, +8 on swim checks), hold breath (can hold breath for 2x as long as normal creatures of that race; usually 4x constitution score). Level 2; Power Attack feat, Endurance feat. Level 3; Extra Rage. Level 4; +2 damage after a charge (only applies while swimming). Level 5; swim speed (full land speed). Viper Totem: 6 to 6.5 feats Level 1; +2 bonus on saves against poison (increases by +2 every six levels), hide and move become class skills. Level 2; Stealthy feat, poison use. Level 3; Lightning Reflexes feat. Level 4; Improved Initiative feat. Level 5; sneak attack +1d6 (increase by +1d6 every 5 levels). Wolf Totem: 6 feats Level 1; fast movement, Skill Focus (survival) feat. Level 2; Improved Trip feat. Level 3; Combat Reflexes feat, Improved Initiative feat. Level 4; +2 bonus on trip checks while raging (increases to +4 at level 8, then to +6 at level 16). Level 5; Track feat. ------------ according to my reasoning; 1) fast movement is worth 1 feat (as dash sucks, so i use fast movement as a feat, prereq. dex 15). 2) uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge are worth 3 feats together. 3) trap sense is worth 1 feat (for barbarians; it don't matter as much for them). other notes; 4) the ape barbarians slow fall upgrades every 3 levels and is worth less than the proposed ability earlier in this thread. 5) the frightful presence ability for the dragon barbarian IS limited; only functions while raging. of course this might not be a restriction if playing only 1 encounter a day, but it is an actual restriction. i still count it as 2 feats though. 6) i know i enhanced the jaguar barbarian. not that those are actually houserules from before the additions of totems. thus the totems were made to be on par with my standard*. 7) yes, i actually made rabbit barbarians. so sue me :P . 8) many abilities are limited (only thrown weapons, only while swimming, only equine creatures); i have counted most of these to be worth less than a full feat. 9) many skill feats are used as well (skill focus or feats like stealthy and acrobatic); these feats are also counted as worth less than a feat. though such abilities are worth thier full feat status, when replacing combat qualities, they pale in comparison. ---------- *if anyone cares to rebalance these around the basic barbarian (jaguar barbarian without my additions), feel free to do so. i'm not looking for feedback, so much as i'm sharing what i've come up with (the IDEA of the totemic barbarian rocks, even if the presentation in unearthed arcana doesn't).
Blaque 01-04-06, 06:34 PM	As a random comment, I think that the jaguar as default barbarian fits nicely. But when I read that, I thgouth Aztec Jaguar Warrior with obsidian warclub, bum's rushing people, dodging like a fiend, and eating the hearts fo their enemies. In context of that, fits nicely. Stuff.
Factol Rhys 01-05-06, 07:15 PM	The Rabbit Barbarian should have a special attack whereby it bites an opponent'd head off. "Run away!"
FriendlyBiscuit 01-06-06, 05:38 AM	Should we try to bring them up in power then, so as to better serve the purpose for which they were intended? They're not *too* underpowered. Most of the time, whatever class I'm playing, I'd rather take a barbarian with me down into a dungeon over a sorceror, bard, ranger, samurai, etc. But they are a little behind. What about making their fast movement identical to the monk's progression, instead of a flat +10? And I don't see why jaguars can't have Rage. I don't know a single animal that doesn't get ****** and flip out. Even gerbils will sink their teeth into you and not let go until you forcibly yank them (and some of your flesh) out.
trashdog 01-07-06, 02:27 AM	I'll admit I haven't really studied all these fixes for the variants, but the main problem I saw in Patrick Draken-Korin's was that they're rather top-heavy. You get all the abilities in the first 5 levels. Anyways, I like them the way they are. My boyfriend made a LG Mror (Eberron) Dwarf Berserker with the Bear variant, and it turned out just the way he wanted it: tough as adamantine. :D
Patrick Draken-Korin 01-07-06, 07:25 PM	you're right, trashdog, the barbarian variants are kinda top heavy (as for variations). but look at what the get later on; DR & improvements to thier rage ability. now i'm not saying you couldn't add one more feat/ability at say, levels 12 to 15, but would that be good? it could make them even more powerful than mine (unless you only offered support feats like the skill bonus ones and similar abilities... hmm. gotta think on this). yeah, when i read the thread originally, i just had to add the rabbit barbarian. of course i made it reasonable (never liked joke classes or joke characters in video games). just multiclass rogue and rabbit barbarian... now that's a survivor. any other barbarian totem suggestions? i'm thinking turtle, crocodile, and kangaroo. still working on them.