Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kobayashi_Maru 07-24-06, 12:33 PM	I'm looking for a house rule to increase the difficulty of spell and power saves in my game. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Pizzini3000 07-24-06, 04:35 PM	One thing I've been a fan of, is the way warlock's saves work. instead of adding the level of the spell, add 1/2 the caster level. Other than that, you could roll d20 instead of adding 10 for the DCs. but the more dice rolled, the slower the game goes.
Kobayashi_Maru 07-24-06, 04:41 PM	I was thinking of instead of saves being based on 10+ spell or power level + relevant modifiers, making them like this 10+ spell or power level + relevant modifiers + 1/2 caster level. Would that be too much? I mean most of the characters in the game can usually make DCs of 20.
Phoenix Knight 07-24-06, 05:02 PM	That would probably be too high for most characters to make saves very often. DC 20 is very hard until high levels. At level 5 a rogue or fighter (that hasn't lowered it multiclassing) has a base will of +1. He might have a resistance bonus of +1 (though most characters haven't bought a cloak of resistance yet at 5th). We'll say he has +2. That means against DC 15 he needs a 13. So he fails 60% of the time. Against DC 20 he fails 85% of the time. At 10th level, he has a base will of +3, possibly +1 from wisdom, and +2 from resistance for a +6 save. Against DC 20, he still fails 65% of the time. The DC for a good spell using the formula you list would be 10 + 5 (caster level) + 6 Int + 5 (spell level) + 1 spell focus. That's DC 27. Our poor guy only passes on a natural 20, and only because a nat 20 always passes. Pizzini3000's suggestion is likely to give plenty high DCs (in the example above, still DC 21). Plus I like how it ties DC to caster power, not spell power. Keeps lower-level spells more useful and feels more flavorful to me.
Thane26425 07-24-06, 08:10 PM	That is an interesting idea using caster level rather than spell level. Most low level spells become useless fairly quickly due to everything having such high saves. Adding 1/2 caster level would also make it easier since all saves would be the same. Of course, this would have to cut both ways which would make it hard on players too.
Kobayashi_Maru 07-25-06, 10:39 AM	It just seems that on average, using 1/2 the caster level instead of spell level only raises the DCs by +1, which isn't that much tougher. I just don't like that lower level spells become useless at higher levels. The lowest level member of our party is 10 while the highest is 15 and they don't have much problems making saving throws.
Patrick Draken-Korin 07-27-06, 07:00 PM	that system works but it isn't as good as it sounds; you see it isn't a +1 bonus to save DC's. you'd actually be sufferring a decrease on higher saves. using a wizard as the basis. (after the vs, it is spell bonus according to spell level, in order or 0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9) wiz1; +0 all vs +0/+1 wiz2; +1 all vs +0/+1 wiz3; +1 all vs +0/+1/+2 wiz4; +2 all vs +0/+1/+2 wiz5; +2 all vs +0/+1/+2/+3 wiz6; +3 all vs +0/+1/+2/+3 skip a few wiz17; +8 all vs +0/+1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6/+7/+8/+9 wiz18; +9 all vs +0/+1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6/+7/+8/+9 wiz19; +9 all vs +0/+1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6/+7/+8/+9 wiz20; +10 all vs +0/+1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6/+7/+8/+9 see? that +1 bonus doesn't even take effect until level 20. bards would benefit faster; a +5 bonus at level 10 for 4th level spells, and a +10 bonus at level 20 for 6th level spells. two better systems would be > 1/2 caster level Or spell level whichever's higher. note that this only helps lower level spells until nigh-on epic. > X + 1/2 caster level, where x represents the number you deem to be fair. this could be far more powerful, but also gamebreaking; 3 + 1/2 caster level means a minimum DC of 18 for 1st level spells cast by a level 10 sorceress (and that's if she's taken enough cha damage to prevent her from casting higher level spells). ooh, here's another idea. call it an improved talent variant or something. - your two highest spell levels are cast as 10 + spell level + ability modifier - the next two lower spell levels are cast following that formula, but with a +1 bonus. - the next two following spell levels are cast with a +2 bonus - then, you've got two options. A) all following spell levels are cast at a +3 bonus B) or continue the pattern, with the next two spell levels gaining a +3 bonus, and two levels beyond this getting a +4 bonus, and so on wiz20 (A); +3/+4/+5/+6/+6/+7/+7/+8/+8/+9 wiz20 (B); +4/+5/+5/+6/+6/+7/+7/+8/+8/+9 brd20 (A); +3/+3/+4/+4/+5/+5/+6 brd20 (B); +3/+3/+4/+4/+5/+5/+6 (wiz spells; 0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, brd spells 0/1/2/3/4/5/6) that should help lower level spells, but avoid being game breaking. the real problem with it is that you've gotta take maximum spell level into account, blah, blah, blah, blah. gotta go.
Witchblade 07-27-06, 07:47 PM	This must be the first caster-friendly houserule I've seen in a month. Hopefully, the last. Casters really don't need a boost, especially not on saves. Before you'll use this houserule, think about how often your PCs will fail the save against an opponent's save-or-die spell. Making low-level spells better can already be done by using Heighten Spell.
Kobayashi_Maru 07-30-06, 10:57 AM	This must be the first caster-friendly houserule I've seen in a month. Hopefully, the last. Casters really don't need a boost, especially not on saves. Before you'll use this houserule, think about how often your PCs will fail the save against an opponent's save-or-die spell. Making low-level spells better can already be done by using Heighten Spell. That's the point my player's don't fail saves period. Except on that rare 5% chance they rolled a 1.
runestar 07-30-06, 11:02 AM	You could just substitute 3.0 spell power in areas where appropriate... :D
Kursk 07-30-06, 04:43 PM	I just don't like that lower level spells become useless at higher levels. I don't like that a fighters non-magical dagger becomes less useful at high level but I don't think I'd increase its damage because of that...
DM Zoc 07-30-06, 05:23 PM	Nerf the characters instead of messing with the mechanics. I've been in too many games where someone has a low stat of 12, and AC is a joke because the level 9 fighter has +26 to hit. Enforce the elite array, and be careful with allowing non-core materials.
Kobayashi_Maru 08-01-06, 10:55 AM	I don't like that a fighters non-magical dagger becomes less useful at high level but I don't think I'd increase its damage because of that... So if you have a +1 dagger you never trade in or look for a +2 or +3 dagger. Bahhhhhh. It's not just spells, the DCs for saves against poisons and diseases are a joke. Most of the save DCs in the game are jokes.
Fargren 08-01-06, 12:31 PM	So if you have a +1 dagger you never trade in or look for a +2 or +3 dagger. Bahhhhhh. Yes he does. Just like a wizard stops using burning hands and starts using fireball. Increasing the DCs is a bad idea. generally, anything that has a low DC has a very powerfull effect(death, for example). That's balance:you have something that has an average chance of failure, but that kills if it doesn't fail(spll) or something that will probably hit, but will need a lot of hits to accomplish the same thing the other can doo in one blow(normal attacks.
Kobayashi_Maru 08-01-06, 06:18 PM	What if it was 15 + spell level + ability modifier + miscellaneous?
Thiez 08-01-06, 06:51 PM	No. Just use 3 point buy and say magic items are not for sale. That'd show them players how real men play! Starting gold is 2d4 gp
Fargren 08-01-06, 07:14 PM	What if it was 15 + spell level + ability modifier + miscellaneous? Unless everyone in your campaign is a spellcaster, I don't think your players are going to like that. You should try asking them if they think it's a good idea(unless they are really new to the game and don't really understand the rules, in wich case you shouldn't be using houserules at all).
Kobayashi_Maru 08-01-06, 09:25 PM	The players always get a say on rather a house rule should be used, here. The newest players have been playing for 1 1/2 - 2 and the oldest player has been roleplaying for 13-20 years. I'd say slightly less than half the players are spell casters, 7 out of 15. Not including the two GMs reoccuring NPCs.
retillin 08-01-06, 09:54 PM	This comes down to why i think wizards are better than sorc (dont mean to change the tread). But when you get so high that the high level NPC just ignores that nasty shocking grasp, the wizard can start using more utility spells. And the dagger example was spot on. Think of spells not as always good, but like trading in your sword every few levels for an extra plus one or ability. So at 20th level if you are using 1st level spells in a fight, well the fight should be over and not in your favour. Just my thoughts and please dont turn this into a wiz vs sor, just pointing out how they can cover up the fact they dont need burning hands anymore.
Kobayashi_Maru 08-01-06, 10:51 PM	I just don't think a +1 dagger becomes useless at level 20.
runestar 08-01-06, 11:21 PM	I just don't think a +1 dagger becomes useless at level 20. It's not useless, it would just pale in comparison with that +5vorpal greatsword you could be wielding instead, but it does everything it promises to do. If you are stuck facing a dragon and have no weapons on you, you will have no choice but to use said dagger. And it will do what it is supposed to do: add +1 to your to-hit and damage, and let you overcome dr/magic. ;) And spells can be hard to save against if you know your stuff. Use your highest lv spells and target a player's weak save. Use debuffing spells like enervation/limited wish if you have to, so as to lower their saves some more. It takes a little bit of prep work to really make those save or die spells worth it, but it is really powerful if used correctly. And lower lv spells would still be useful - just use those which aren't as reliant on saves, or general utility spells which don't require them altogether. :)
AT-AT Assault 08-02-06, 10:02 AM	and AC is a joke because the level 9 fighter has +26 to hit.What the... :confused: I have not spent the time to see how DnD can be fully min-maxed (mainly because DnD is not the main game I play), so how's that possible?
runestar 08-02-06, 10:31 AM	9th lv fighter... bab +9 weapon/greater weapon focus: +2 +2weapon(greater magic weapon) +2 str score of 24: +7(assume starting str of 18, +2 from lv ups, +4 from high str race like orc or goliath) +4 enhancement bonus(bulls strength or girdle): +2 +4 str from rage(say he multiclassed in 1 lv of fighter: +2 That's 24, I guess the remainder will be coming from some feats/prc features from splatbooks I do not own or am not aware of. :P
Kobayashi_Maru 08-02-06, 03:56 PM	We might switch over to the spell point variant. Maybe then we can use the spend extra points for a bonus to the DC.
Thiez 08-02-06, 06:19 PM	Spending extra points to get a higher DC? Why not give all your casters Heighten Spell for free?