Toughness Saves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Toughness Saves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
04-06-07, 11:31 PM Ever since I've been exposed to Mutants and Masterminds, and subsiquently True20, I've been growing more interested in utilizing a Toughness save mechanic for regular D&D. One thing I like about it is that a tough character can take a hit and not suffer damage from it; this is what toughness should be in my opinion.

In standard D&D, this can only be accomplishd with Damage Reduction, but Damage Reduction has a nasty habbit of providing total immunity at lower levels or being outright worthless at higher levels. Especially converting armor to DR: as UA showed, high damage monsters are more dangerous if armor provides DR instead of half its AC.

So, who has played with the UA injury system, or the toughness systems in M&Mm or in True20? How has it felt for you?
starfire311
04-06-07, 11:43 PM Ever since I've been exposed to Mutants and Masterminds, and subsiquently True20, I've been growing more interested in utilizing a Toughness save mechanic for regular D&D. One thing I like about it is that a tough character can take a hit and not suffer damage from it; this is what toughness should be in my opinion.

In standard D&D, this can only be accomplishd with Damage Reduction, but Damage Reduction has a nasty habbit of providing total immunity at lower levels or being outright worthless at higher levels. Especially converting armor to DR: as UA showed, high damage monsters are more dangerous if armor provides DR instead of half its AC.

So, who has played with the UA injury system, or the toughness systems in M&Mm or in True20? How has it felt for you?

I have played the M&m system numerous times, I loved it at 1st, then the more I played it the less I liked it.
Ranger REG
04-07-07, 04:14 AM ...then the more I played it the less I liked it.
Elaborate why you liked it less.
SilvercatMoonpaw
04-07-07, 08:55 AM I like the Toughness saves of M&M because there is less to keep track of. Each instance of injury is just a tally mark, rather than having to add/subtract hit points (this does not mean I have a problem with numbers, I just have a problem dealing with resource management). Also, because damage in M&M is generally a fixed number against a save it's easier for both players and DMs to gauge how much damage is going to take place.

One piece of advice (that you probably could have figured out on your own) is to ignore the system in UA and just port in the one from True20/M&M. The UA system talks about "for every 5 points blah blah" which makes it sound like they still expect you to roll things, which defeats the purpose.
starfire311
04-07-07, 01:59 PM Elaborate why you liked it less.

I would love to, but I am having trouble putting my finger on it.
Greg K
04-07-07, 02:24 PM One piece of advice (that you probably could have figured out on your own) is to ignore the system in UA and just port in the one from True20/M&M. The UA system talks about "for every 5 points blah blah" which makes it sound like they still expect you to roll things, which defeats the purpose.

The UA version was, imo, horribly done. It was so poorly implemented that someone might get the mistaken impression that the WOTC designers were trying to foster negative opinions of the toughness save among those unfamiliar with its original implementation in M&M.
Xeviat-DM
04-07-07, 03:47 PM Definately, I would be using the system stragiht out of True20. Another thing I like about it is that it would allow me to remove To-Hit from Strength, switch to Armor as Toughness, and impliment my long awaited Agility stat. I'd have to go through a lot of the system and convert damages and ensure that things don't get out of hand, but I like that I can do away with silly random HP, and that tallying injuries is simple.

The only issue is that I would have to entirely redo the Cure Wounds and Heal spells. Oh well, that shouldn't be too hard.
SilvercatMoonpaw
04-07-07, 05:51 PM Hey, redo the whole "we need tons of gear" thing and you'll have an absolutely dreamy RPG.
starfire311
04-07-07, 06:01 PM Hey, redo the whole "we need tons of gear" thing and you'll have an absolutely dreamy RPG.

I am guessing you have never played M&M, the amount of gear you need is completly dependant on you the player.
Xeviat-DM
04-07-07, 06:35 PM And True20 doesn't even have improved gear under the base system. Very little magic weapons (the only magic items are "potions" and weapons that can penitrate DR really) means that you aren't worrying about that. I don't like that aspect of the system, but oh well.

I'll see what I can do about creating reasonable toughness save progressions (part of me thinks that using the low-med-high save progression could work reasonably well; bards, rogues, sorcerers, and wizards get the low, progressing 0-6; clerics, druids, monks, and rangers get medium, progressing 1-9; barbarians, fighters, and paladins get high, progressing 2-12. Barbarians may need some sort of advantage to make up for the loss of HP compared to fighters, but that can be balanced on its own). Converting the monsters from the Monster Manual to this system will probably require the CR system to be re-addressed.

Most importantly, magic items will need to be reevaluated. If a +1 weapon gains +1 to hit and +1 damage, that damage increase is considerably more than before. How would enhancements like Flaming work (would they grant +2 damage that can be reduced by energy resistance, or would they provoke a separate Toughness save vs. energy damage?). Damage Reduction will need to be decided upon (I think DR should reduce the save an attack requires by a certain amount, and if the damage rating is reduced to 0, no save is required), as will energy resistance (same solution I think).

Anyone care to assist in this project?
SilvercatMoonpaw
04-07-07, 06:39 PM I am guessing you have never played M&M, the amount of gear you need is completly dependant on you the player.
Actually, it's my favorite RPG. I was talking about D&D.

I'd be willing to help, Xeviat, but I'm not sure what you want in the way of help. I'm not a mechanics genius.
polt
04-07-07, 08:37 PM Try this one out for a jiffy (what's a jiffy?):

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823633

It might be something you can use.
Ranger REG
04-07-07, 10:43 PM I would love to, but I am having trouble putting my finger on it.
Why? You booby-trapped your own keyboard? :P

When you find out what it is, let us know.
Xeviat-DM
04-09-07, 05:00 AM I wasn't looking for help in converting the system, just confirmation if others think it could be a good system.

The issue is that doing this, and moving to hit to dex, would inflate the value of Dex and decrease the value of Str (and potentially increase the value of Con). So, I'd really want to have an Agility score, as I've always wanted, to cover AC and Reflex saves, but then I'd want a Perception score to round out 4 mentals and 4 physicals (which also helps with my setting's desired magic system).

Aside from that, conversion should be simple enough if I base it on a few simple principals (+1 size is +1 damage, create a balanced weapon calculator, decide on Toughness save progressions ...).
polt
04-09-07, 05:02 AM I wasn't looking for help in converting the system, just confirmation if others think it could be a good system.

The issue is that doing this, and moving to hit to dex, would inflate the value of Dex and decrease the value of Str (and potentially increase the value of Con). So, I'd really want to have an Agility score, as I've always wanted, to cover AC and Reflex saves, but then I'd want a Perception score to round out 4 mentals and 4 physicals (which also helps with my setting's desired magic system).

Aside from that, conversion should be simple enough if I base it on a few simple principals (+1 size is +1 damage, create a balanced weapon calculator, decide on Toughness save progressions ...).

If you take a look at the link I posted, it's already been converted.
Xeviat-DM
04-09-07, 03:05 PM Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't add an Agility score, did they? They just utilized the True20 system as written? I feel that, in the True 20 system, Dex is very overpowered.

The biggest problem with the true20 system is that a Wizard cannot hit a Fighter, or any other high BAB creature, at high levels. For instance, at 20th level, a wizard's attack bonus is d20+10+Dex, while a fighter's AC is 30+Dex. The Wizard can only hit the fighter on a roll of 20. Thus, touch attacks, and other wizard attacks that are suposed to be achievable, are now unachievable.
starfire311
04-09-07, 03:20 PM so if you add an agility stat, what would dexterity be? would it still be dex? or would it become an accuracy stat?

so agility would apply AC, reflex saves, init, tumble, balance, hide, move silently
and accuracy/dexterity would apply to attack rolls?
Sphyre
04-11-07, 12:09 AM In standard D&D, this can only be accomplishd with Damage Reduction, but Damage Reduction has a nasty habbit of providing total immunity at lower levels or being outright worthless at higher levels. Especially converting armor to DR: as UA showed, high damage monsters are more dangerous if armor provides DR instead of half its AC.

Are you refering to 3.0 damage reduction, in which if you had a +5 weapon, you bypassed all damage reduction, but if you had a non-masterwork weapon you couldn't hurt a fly with any type of damage reduction?

Or are you refering to the 3.5 damage reduction, in which you have to have the right type of weapon, or your attacks do 1-15 less? More often than not, that makes damage reduction worth it, but not worthless at high levels nor invincibility at low levels...
Xeviat-DM
04-11-07, 02:51 AM No, I'm refering to AC as DR from UA; if you wear fullplate, you lose 4 AC and get 4/- DR; at high levels, a loss of 4 AC means you're hit so much more by large, strong creatures that the 4/- DR is worth less than the 4 AC would have been.

They point this out in Unearthed Arcana itself.

....

As for Agility, I'd have it be AC, Reflex, and Tumble; agility represents quickness of movement. DEx would be To Hit and all the other dex skills, as Dex is Coordination. I've discussed this with people on the True20 boards; in True20, DEx becomes very potent as it coveres to hit and AC.
starfire311
04-11-07, 09:36 AM As for Agility, I'd have it be AC, Reflex, and Tumble; agility represents quickness of movement. DEx would be To Hit and all the other dex skills, as Dex is Coordination. I've discussed this with people on the True20 boards; in True20, DEx becomes very potent as it coveres to hit and AC.

it is difficult for me to picture someone that is agile, but not coordinated, however it is certainly easy to picture the opposite.
Xeviat-DM
04-11-07, 03:41 PM You're partially right; a marksman could be coordinated but not necessarily agile. Fat people could be coordinated but not agile, but one could say that being overweight would apply a max dex bonus and armor check penalties just like being encumbered.

Likewise, it's hard to imagine high str/low con characters, but its easy to imagine high con/low str characters. I understand that this is a difficult split, but I've seen many CRPGs that use Str, Dex, Con, Agi, and I've seen a few that use four "mentals" (though they generally have int, wis, cha, and luck).
starfire311
04-11-07, 03:49 PM You're partially right; a marksman could be coordinated but not necessarily agile. Fat people could be coordinated but not agile, but one could say that being overweight would apply a max dex bonus and armor check penalties just like being encumbered.

um yeah that is what I said, or at least what I meant by

it is difficult for me to picture someone that is agile, but not coordinated, however it is certainly easy to picture the opposite.

the opposite being someone that is coordinated, but not agile.

but yeah I have no problem with the stat It can work, just need to be careful balancing them, see 2nd ed Skills and powers for a bad job of balancing split stats.
Xeviat-DM
04-11-07, 04:16 PM The skills attached to Perception are important, and that could help it. Charisma currently has no ability other than its skills and the class abilities attached to it, and that's why many think Charisma is weak (and why I want to attach Action Points to it).

And thanks; I understood what you were saying, I was just elaborating on it to be sure.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 04-06-07, 11:31 PM	Ever since I've been exposed to Mutants and Masterminds, and subsiquently True20, I've been growing more interested in utilizing a Toughness save mechanic for regular D&D. One thing I like about it is that a tough character can take a hit and not suffer damage from it; this is what toughness should be in my opinion. In standard D&D, this can only be accomplishd with Damage Reduction, but Damage Reduction has a nasty habbit of providing total immunity at lower levels or being outright worthless at higher levels. Especially converting armor to DR: as UA showed, high damage monsters are more dangerous if armor provides DR instead of half its AC. So, who has played with the UA injury system, or the toughness systems in M&Mm or in True20? How has it felt for you?
starfire311 04-06-07, 11:43 PM	Ever since I've been exposed to Mutants and Masterminds, and subsiquently True20, I've been growing more interested in utilizing a Toughness save mechanic for regular D&D. One thing I like about it is that a tough character can take a hit and not suffer damage from it; this is what toughness should be in my opinion. In standard D&D, this can only be accomplishd with Damage Reduction, but Damage Reduction has a nasty habbit of providing total immunity at lower levels or being outright worthless at higher levels. Especially converting armor to DR: as UA showed, high damage monsters are more dangerous if armor provides DR instead of half its AC. So, who has played with the UA injury system, or the toughness systems in M&Mm or in True20? How has it felt for you? I have played the M&m system numerous times, I loved it at 1st, then the more I played it the less I liked it.
Ranger REG 04-07-07, 04:14 AM	...then the more I played it the less I liked it. Elaborate why you liked it less.
SilvercatMoonpaw 04-07-07, 08:55 AM	I like the Toughness saves of M&M because there is less to keep track of. Each instance of injury is just a tally mark, rather than having to add/subtract hit points (this does not mean I have a problem with numbers, I just have a problem dealing with resource management). Also, because damage in M&M is generally a fixed number against a save it's easier for both players and DMs to gauge how much damage is going to take place. One piece of advice (that you probably could have figured out on your own) is to ignore the system in UA and just port in the one from True20/M&M. The UA system talks about "for every 5 points blah blah" which makes it sound like they still expect you to roll things, which defeats the purpose.
starfire311 04-07-07, 01:59 PM	Elaborate why you liked it less. I would love to, but I am having trouble putting my finger on it.
Greg K 04-07-07, 02:24 PM	One piece of advice (that you probably could have figured out on your own) is to ignore the system in UA and just port in the one from True20/M&M. The UA system talks about "for every 5 points blah blah" which makes it sound like they still expect you to roll things, which defeats the purpose. The UA version was, imo, horribly done. It was so poorly implemented that someone might get the mistaken impression that the WOTC designers were trying to foster negative opinions of the toughness save among those unfamiliar with its original implementation in M&M.
Xeviat-DM 04-07-07, 03:47 PM	Definately, I would be using the system stragiht out of True20. Another thing I like about it is that it would allow me to remove To-Hit from Strength, switch to Armor as Toughness, and impliment my long awaited Agility stat. I'd have to go through a lot of the system and convert damages and ensure that things don't get out of hand, but I like that I can do away with silly random HP, and that tallying injuries is simple. The only issue is that I would have to entirely redo the Cure Wounds and Heal spells. Oh well, that shouldn't be too hard.
SilvercatMoonpaw 04-07-07, 05:51 PM	Hey, redo the whole "we need tons of gear" thing and you'll have an absolutely dreamy RPG.
starfire311 04-07-07, 06:01 PM	Hey, redo the whole "we need tons of gear" thing and you'll have an absolutely dreamy RPG. I am guessing you have never played M&M, the amount of gear you need is completly dependant on you the player.
Xeviat-DM 04-07-07, 06:35 PM	And True20 doesn't even have improved gear under the base system. Very little magic weapons (the only magic items are "potions" and weapons that can penitrate DR really) means that you aren't worrying about that. I don't like that aspect of the system, but oh well. I'll see what I can do about creating reasonable toughness save progressions (part of me thinks that using the low-med-high save progression could work reasonably well; bards, rogues, sorcerers, and wizards get the low, progressing 0-6; clerics, druids, monks, and rangers get medium, progressing 1-9; barbarians, fighters, and paladins get high, progressing 2-12. Barbarians may need some sort of advantage to make up for the loss of HP compared to fighters, but that can be balanced on its own). Converting the monsters from the Monster Manual to this system will probably require the CR system to be re-addressed. Most importantly, magic items will need to be reevaluated. If a +1 weapon gains +1 to hit and +1 damage, that damage increase is considerably more than before. How would enhancements like Flaming work (would they grant +2 damage that can be reduced by energy resistance, or would they provoke a separate Toughness save vs. energy damage?). Damage Reduction will need to be decided upon (I think DR should reduce the save an attack requires by a certain amount, and if the damage rating is reduced to 0, no save is required), as will energy resistance (same solution I think). Anyone care to assist in this project?
SilvercatMoonpaw 04-07-07, 06:39 PM	I am guessing you have never played M&M, the amount of gear you need is completly dependant on you the player. Actually, it's my favorite RPG. I was talking about D&D. I'd be willing to help, Xeviat, but I'm not sure what you want in the way of help. I'm not a mechanics genius.
polt 04-07-07, 08:37 PM	Try this one out for a jiffy (what's a jiffy?): http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823633 It might be something you can use.
Ranger REG 04-07-07, 10:43 PM	I would love to, but I am having trouble putting my finger on it. Why? You booby-trapped your own keyboard? :P When you find out what it is, let us know.
Xeviat-DM 04-09-07, 05:00 AM	I wasn't looking for help in converting the system, just confirmation if others think it could be a good system. The issue is that doing this, and moving to hit to dex, would inflate the value of Dex and decrease the value of Str (and potentially increase the value of Con). So, I'd really want to have an Agility score, as I've always wanted, to cover AC and Reflex saves, but then I'd want a Perception score to round out 4 mentals and 4 physicals (which also helps with my setting's desired magic system). Aside from that, conversion should be simple enough if I base it on a few simple principals (+1 size is +1 damage, create a balanced weapon calculator, decide on Toughness save progressions ...).
polt 04-09-07, 05:02 AM	I wasn't looking for help in converting the system, just confirmation if others think it could be a good system. The issue is that doing this, and moving to hit to dex, would inflate the value of Dex and decrease the value of Str (and potentially increase the value of Con). So, I'd really want to have an Agility score, as I've always wanted, to cover AC and Reflex saves, but then I'd want a Perception score to round out 4 mentals and 4 physicals (which also helps with my setting's desired magic system). Aside from that, conversion should be simple enough if I base it on a few simple principals (+1 size is +1 damage, create a balanced weapon calculator, decide on Toughness save progressions ...). If you take a look at the link I posted, it's already been converted.
Xeviat-DM 04-09-07, 03:05 PM	Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't add an Agility score, did they? They just utilized the True20 system as written? I feel that, in the True 20 system, Dex is very overpowered. The biggest problem with the true20 system is that a Wizard cannot hit a Fighter, or any other high BAB creature, at high levels. For instance, at 20th level, a wizard's attack bonus is d20+10+Dex, while a fighter's AC is 30+Dex. The Wizard can only hit the fighter on a roll of 20. Thus, touch attacks, and other wizard attacks that are suposed to be achievable, are now unachievable.
starfire311 04-09-07, 03:20 PM	so if you add an agility stat, what would dexterity be? would it still be dex? or would it become an accuracy stat? so agility would apply AC, reflex saves, init, tumble, balance, hide, move silently and accuracy/dexterity would apply to attack rolls?
Sphyre 04-11-07, 12:09 AM	In standard D&D, this can only be accomplishd with Damage Reduction, but Damage Reduction has a nasty habbit of providing total immunity at lower levels or being outright worthless at higher levels. Especially converting armor to DR: as UA showed, high damage monsters are more dangerous if armor provides DR instead of half its AC. Are you refering to 3.0 damage reduction, in which if you had a +5 weapon, you bypassed all damage reduction, but if you had a non-masterwork weapon you couldn't hurt a fly with any type of damage reduction? Or are you refering to the 3.5 damage reduction, in which you have to have the right type of weapon, or your attacks do 1-15 less? More often than not, that makes damage reduction worth it, but not worthless at high levels nor invincibility at low levels...
Xeviat-DM 04-11-07, 02:51 AM	No, I'm refering to AC as DR from UA; if you wear fullplate, you lose 4 AC and get 4/- DR; at high levels, a loss of 4 AC means you're hit so much more by large, strong creatures that the 4/- DR is worth less than the 4 AC would have been. They point this out in Unearthed Arcana itself. .... As for Agility, I'd have it be AC, Reflex, and Tumble; agility represents quickness of movement. DEx would be To Hit and all the other dex skills, as Dex is Coordination. I've discussed this with people on the True20 boards; in True20, DEx becomes very potent as it coveres to hit and AC.
starfire311 04-11-07, 09:36 AM	As for Agility, I'd have it be AC, Reflex, and Tumble; agility represents quickness of movement. DEx would be To Hit and all the other dex skills, as Dex is Coordination. I've discussed this with people on the True20 boards; in True20, DEx becomes very potent as it coveres to hit and AC. it is difficult for me to picture someone that is agile, but not coordinated, however it is certainly easy to picture the opposite.
Xeviat-DM 04-11-07, 03:41 PM	You're partially right; a marksman could be coordinated but not necessarily agile. Fat people could be coordinated but not agile, but one could say that being overweight would apply a max dex bonus and armor check penalties just like being encumbered. Likewise, it's hard to imagine high str/low con characters, but its easy to imagine high con/low str characters. I understand that this is a difficult split, but I've seen many CRPGs that use Str, Dex, Con, Agi, and I've seen a few that use four "mentals" (though they generally have int, wis, cha, and luck).
starfire311 04-11-07, 03:49 PM	You're partially right; a marksman could be coordinated but not necessarily agile. Fat people could be coordinated but not agile, but one could say that being overweight would apply a max dex bonus and armor check penalties just like being encumbered. um yeah that is what I said, or at least what I meant by it is difficult for me to picture someone that is agile, but not coordinated, however it is certainly easy to picture the opposite. the opposite being someone that is coordinated, but not agile. but yeah I have no problem with the stat It can work, just need to be careful balancing them, see 2nd ed Skills and powers for a bad job of balancing split stats.
Xeviat-DM 04-11-07, 04:16 PM	The skills attached to Perception are important, and that could help it. Charisma currently has no ability other than its skills and the class abilities attached to it, and that's why many think Charisma is weak (and why I want to attach Action Points to it). And thanks; I understood what you were saying, I was just elaborating on it to be sure.