Towards a New (and better) Skill System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Towards a New (and better) Skill System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drachasor
06-27-05, 11:15 AM Premise: D&D is a game that is fundamentally about overcoming challenges.* Combat challenges are handled very well in this regard, with an interesting and fun system. Any challenge outside of combat is handled in a mediocre to poor way by the system. In a game that is good overall, all important factors to the game should be helped and supported by the system.** As such (primarily) the skill system needs an overall to make non-combat challenges in a more interesting and fun way. By way of comparison, the current combat system compared to the skill system is like comparing Chess to Checkers. To put it another way, if the combat system worked liked the skill system, then you'd make one roll and success would mean you defeated your opponent.

Strategy: I am attempting to make a fairly "easy" fix to the skill system, by mirroring it after the combat system. Clearly a tactical board isn't in order, but many of the other concepts that work in combat can also work with other challenges surprisingly well.

First attempt at a solution:

1. There are Obstacles in the game. They can be social, mental, or physical. Most physical Obstacles, but not all, are combats. Social and Mental challenges typically never involve combat. A room full of swirling blades that can only be crossed along a narrow beam is a Physical Obstacle. Convincing the Mayor to release you from Jail is a Social Obstacle. Figuring out how to safely deactivate the Magical Devise of Ultimate Doom based on an Evil Mage's cryptic Journal Entries is a Mental Obstacle.

2. An Obstacle has a number of Challenge Points (CPs), which function similarly to hit points. All Obstacles have a DC (Difficulty Class), which determines how hard they are to "damage". When you are trying to Overcome an Obstacle, you deal it "damage" which subtracts from its normal CP total. When the CP total equals 0, the Obstacle has been Overcome.

3. A "round" when overcoming an obstacle is not necessarily 6 seconds. The time it takes for one round of actions to be resolved is called a Turn. A Turn may equal a round in time, or it may be a minute, ten minutes, an hour, or even longer. Typically turns are in minutes or tens of minutes.

4. There are different types of Obstacles, each has its own qualities. Some have the equivalent of Regeneration or Fast Healing which allow them to recover Challenge Points each Turn. Some Obstacles can only be temporarily Overcome, and after a time return to their former difficulty.

5. Against many Obstacles you can do the equivalent of Charging, Feinting, Flanking, Aiding Another, Disarming, Tripping, and Two-"Weapon" Fighting. Obstacles can also have defenses that correspond to what Creatures may have in combat. Also many conditions can carry over directly as well.

...To be continued (One problem I am facing is how to handle the dealing of "damage." The main idea I have is that a normal skill check does 1 point, but you can take a minus 3 penalty and deal 1d6 points, and further penalties of 3 increase your damage by 1d6 points each. However, I am not sure how happy I am with this. I'd like somthing a bit easier to manage--e.g. something that didn't involve a lot of on-the-spot adding and subtracting, but I don't know how to handle "weapon" damage. Perhaps base it on the ability modifier?)

-Drachasor

*Not all roleplaying games have this premise.

**Note that this is one of the reasons why a group of totally new players and a new DM can have trouble figuring out how to play if they just read the books.
odirex
06-27-05, 02:46 PM I think the damage dealt should be equal to how much your skill check roll beat the DC by.

I know you said you didn't want to do a lot of math, but this option seems to make sense for the system and the math isn't hard. I like your concept very much; it is very original.
srkingdavy
06-27-05, 03:06 PM "damage" dealt to obstacles should be based on class, and could be increased by using the right tools. Most people would deal one point of damage to a trap, rogues would deal 1d6+dex.

Masterwork lockpicks would add a +1 to "hit", +1 lockpicks would be +1 to attack and damage.

The same could be done with most other skills and classes. This would need to be laid out in a matrix. Cross-class skills are always 1 point of damage. Class skills are 1d4 if a secondary feature, 1d6 if a primary feature.

Some skills, notably Appraise, Balance, Knowledge, Listen,Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Rope would not use this system, as they are "all or nothing" skills. Either you spot something, or you don't. Either you know something, or you don't. "limited knowledge" is handled by passing the DC barely or with flying colors; splitting it into rounds is meaningless.
Arcade
06-27-05, 03:41 PM Some skills, notably Appraise, Balance, Knowledge, Listen,Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Rope would not use this system, as they are "all or nothing" skills. Either you spot something, or you don't. Either you know something, or you don't. "limited knowledge" is handled by passing the DC barely or with flying colors; splitting it into rounds is meaningless.

Actually, they can still use this system- however the challenge points are very low- like 1.

Knowledge skills can still have this option. You want to know when Olaf the Great slew the legendary Hydra of Torensk? Well, let's see, Olaf didn't come into power until after Ulgren, hmmm, the people of Mennel in had a statue of Olaf against the Hydra in the year xxx, etc. Someone with a high enough check can rattle the number off without backtracking things. (and thus I support the check being used to cause challenge damage)

On the other hand, there has to be room for failure as well. If you're trying to convince the mayor to let you out of jail and you fail your roll, does that mean you fail completely? In combat, you get to take another swing unless you get knocked out first. Does your obstacle get to "knock you out"? Or do you only get to keep knocking off challenge points as long as you roll successfully?

As an alternative, maybe you can adapt it to be like the injury system- If you get over a set DC, you get to keep trying and you get a bonus on future tries. if you get over a higher DC, you actually succeed. i.e. talking the mayor into letting you out of prison. If you roll over DC 25, you get out. If you roll over DC 15, you don't get out, but you can try again with a +x on your bonus (cumulative). If you roll under DC 15, you have lost the mayor entirely and don't get out.

Just some more ideas. I like this idea as a premise.
Drachasor
06-27-05, 08:53 PM I think the damage dealt should be equal to how much your skill check roll beat the DC by.

I know you said you didn't want to do a lot of math, but this option seems to make sense for the system and the math isn't hard. I like your concept very much; it is very original.

I am trying to avoid this in particular because I think that's too simple and lacks some tactical thought. I want to make this mimic the combat system as much as possible (and still make sense), so that there isn't a whole new system to learn. It overall gives a lot of new twists in and out of combat.

Take the knowledge check discussion above, a lot of times it wouldn't be interesting or useful (e.g. unfun) to delve into some complicated system for remembering some fact, so it isn't needed. But, let's say there is a challenge the players ought to overcome, that requires remembering or apply some piece of hard-to-recall information. You make give the turns a length in rounds....why? Because the characters need to use that knowledge to open a door to X before they all get killed by the hordes of Y. So your Wizard, or what-have-you, is engaged in a "combat" against this doorway puzzle, and at the same time the party is holding off the enemy (without the spells of the wizard on-hand). A system just needs to be fleshed out that makes the skill use as interesting and varied as combat.

-Drachasor
Drachasor
06-27-05, 08:55 PM "damage" dealt to obstacles should be based on class, and could be increased by using the right tools. Most people would deal one point of damage to a trap, rogues would deal 1d6+dex.

Masterwork lockpicks would add a +1 to "hit", +1 lockpicks would be +1 to attack and damage.

The same could be done with most other skills and classes. This would need to be laid out in a matrix. Cross-class skills are always 1 point of damage. Class skills are 1d4 if a secondary feature, 1d6 if a primary feature.

Hmm, perhaps take a cue from Monks and unarmed damage. Normal users of a skill do the basic "unarmed" damage, but those with enough levels in classes that have it as a class skill do a higher amount of damage.

-Drachasor
Drachasor
06-27-05, 09:03 PM On the other hand, there has to be room for failure as well. If you're trying to convince the mayor to let you out of jail and you fail your roll, does that mean you fail completely? In combat, you get to take another swing unless you get knocked out first. Does your obstacle get to "knock you out"? Or do you only get to keep knocking off challenge points as long as you roll successfully?

Clearly for opposed roll situations (which may well include many "inanimate" challenges) you will be damaging each other, with each person have a certain "AC", though the hitpoints might just be some fixed number for the given challenge (each person has the same number, or it is based off stats/level/circumstancials). So the Mayor wins if he gets rid of your Challenge Points before you get rid of his.

Naturally there will be some minutia to sort through and lay out. Clearly for DMs it will need to be explained that most social interactions aren't challenges, for instance, if the Mayor is a close personal friend then it might not qualify as a challenge (it's trivial). Almost all purchasing won't be challenges. But that can be dealt with in more detail after the system is fully--or at least more fully--formed.

I'll post an update tonight hopefully, perhaps tomorrow. I think I'll just edit my original post and then bump the thread. Thanks for all the input and help, btw.

-Drachasor
Gilean
06-28-05, 03:41 AM Sounds interesting.
With skills relying on items (alchemy, lockpicking, etc.) give different items values like those of different weapons.
For skills not using them, refer to monk rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drachasor 06-27-05, 11:15 AM	Premise: D&D is a game that is fundamentally about overcoming challenges.* Combat challenges are handled very well in this regard, with an interesting and fun system. Any challenge outside of combat is handled in a mediocre to poor way by the system. In a game that is good overall, all important factors to the game should be helped and supported by the system.** As such (primarily) the skill system needs an overall to make non-combat challenges in a more interesting and fun way. By way of comparison, the current combat system compared to the skill system is like comparing Chess to Checkers. To put it another way, if the combat system worked liked the skill system, then you'd make one roll and success would mean you defeated your opponent. Strategy: I am attempting to make a fairly "easy" fix to the skill system, by mirroring it after the combat system. Clearly a tactical board isn't in order, but many of the other concepts that work in combat can also work with other challenges surprisingly well. First attempt at a solution: 1. There are Obstacles in the game. They can be social, mental, or physical. Most physical Obstacles, but not all, are combats. Social and Mental challenges typically never involve combat. A room full of swirling blades that can only be crossed along a narrow beam is a Physical Obstacle. Convincing the Mayor to release you from Jail is a Social Obstacle. Figuring out how to safely deactivate the Magical Devise of Ultimate Doom based on an Evil Mage's cryptic Journal Entries is a Mental Obstacle. 2. An Obstacle has a number of Challenge Points (CPs), which function similarly to hit points. All Obstacles have a DC (Difficulty Class), which determines how hard they are to "damage". When you are trying to Overcome an Obstacle, you deal it "damage" which subtracts from its normal CP total. When the CP total equals 0, the Obstacle has been Overcome. 3. A "round" when overcoming an obstacle is not necessarily 6 seconds. The time it takes for one round of actions to be resolved is called a Turn. A Turn may equal a round in time, or it may be a minute, ten minutes, an hour, or even longer. Typically turns are in minutes or tens of minutes. 4. There are different types of Obstacles, each has its own qualities. Some have the equivalent of Regeneration or Fast Healing which allow them to recover Challenge Points each Turn. Some Obstacles can only be temporarily Overcome, and after a time return to their former difficulty. 5. Against many Obstacles you can do the equivalent of Charging, Feinting, Flanking, Aiding Another, Disarming, Tripping, and Two-"Weapon" Fighting. Obstacles can also have defenses that correspond to what Creatures may have in combat. Also many conditions can carry over directly as well. ...To be continued (One problem I am facing is how to handle the dealing of "damage." The main idea I have is that a normal skill check does 1 point, but you can take a minus 3 penalty and deal 1d6 points, and further penalties of 3 increase your damage by 1d6 points each. However, I am not sure how happy I am with this. I'd like somthing a bit easier to manage--e.g. something that didn't involve a lot of on-the-spot adding and subtracting, but I don't know how to handle "weapon" damage. Perhaps base it on the ability modifier?) -Drachasor Not all roleplaying games have this premise. *Note that this is one of the reasons why a group of totally new players and a new DM can have trouble figuring out how to play if they just read the books.
odirex 06-27-05, 02:46 PM	I think the damage dealt should be equal to how much your skill check roll beat the DC by. I know you said you didn't want to do a lot of math, but this option seems to make sense for the system and the math isn't hard. I like your concept very much; it is very original.
srkingdavy 06-27-05, 03:06 PM	"damage" dealt to obstacles should be based on class, and could be increased by using the right tools. Most people would deal one point of damage to a trap, rogues would deal 1d6+dex. Masterwork lockpicks would add a +1 to "hit", +1 lockpicks would be +1 to attack and damage. The same could be done with most other skills and classes. This would need to be laid out in a matrix. Cross-class skills are always 1 point of damage. Class skills are 1d4 if a secondary feature, 1d6 if a primary feature. Some skills, notably Appraise, Balance, Knowledge, Listen,Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Rope would not use this system, as they are "all or nothing" skills. Either you spot something, or you don't. Either you know something, or you don't. "limited knowledge" is handled by passing the DC barely or with flying colors; splitting it into rounds is meaningless.
Arcade 06-27-05, 03:41 PM	Some skills, notably Appraise, Balance, Knowledge, Listen,Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Rope would not use this system, as they are "all or nothing" skills. Either you spot something, or you don't. Either you know something, or you don't. "limited knowledge" is handled by passing the DC barely or with flying colors; splitting it into rounds is meaningless. Actually, they can still use this system- however the challenge points are very low- like 1. Knowledge skills can still have this option. You want to know when Olaf the Great slew the legendary Hydra of Torensk? Well, let's see, Olaf didn't come into power until after Ulgren, hmmm, the people of Mennel in had a statue of Olaf against the Hydra in the year xxx, etc. Someone with a high enough check can rattle the number off without backtracking things. (and thus I support the check being used to cause challenge damage) On the other hand, there has to be room for failure as well. If you're trying to convince the mayor to let you out of jail and you fail your roll, does that mean you fail completely? In combat, you get to take another swing unless you get knocked out first. Does your obstacle get to "knock you out"? Or do you only get to keep knocking off challenge points as long as you roll successfully? As an alternative, maybe you can adapt it to be like the injury system- If you get over a set DC, you get to keep trying and you get a bonus on future tries. if you get over a higher DC, you actually succeed. i.e. talking the mayor into letting you out of prison. If you roll over DC 25, you get out. If you roll over DC 15, you don't get out, but you can try again with a +x on your bonus (cumulative). If you roll under DC 15, you have lost the mayor entirely and don't get out. Just some more ideas. I like this idea as a premise.
Drachasor 06-27-05, 08:53 PM	I think the damage dealt should be equal to how much your skill check roll beat the DC by. I know you said you didn't want to do a lot of math, but this option seems to make sense for the system and the math isn't hard. I like your concept very much; it is very original. I am trying to avoid this in particular because I think that's too simple and lacks some tactical thought. I want to make this mimic the combat system as much as possible (and still make sense), so that there isn't a whole new system to learn. It overall gives a lot of new twists in and out of combat. Take the knowledge check discussion above, a lot of times it wouldn't be interesting or useful (e.g. unfun) to delve into some complicated system for remembering some fact, so it isn't needed. But, let's say there is a challenge the players ought to overcome, that requires remembering or apply some piece of hard-to-recall information. You make give the turns a length in rounds....why? Because the characters need to use that knowledge to open a door to X before they all get killed by the hordes of Y. So your Wizard, or what-have-you, is engaged in a "combat" against this doorway puzzle, and at the same time the party is holding off the enemy (without the spells of the wizard on-hand). A system just needs to be fleshed out that makes the skill use as interesting and varied as combat. -Drachasor
Drachasor 06-27-05, 08:55 PM	"damage" dealt to obstacles should be based on class, and could be increased by using the right tools. Most people would deal one point of damage to a trap, rogues would deal 1d6+dex. Masterwork lockpicks would add a +1 to "hit", +1 lockpicks would be +1 to attack and damage. The same could be done with most other skills and classes. This would need to be laid out in a matrix. Cross-class skills are always 1 point of damage. Class skills are 1d4 if a secondary feature, 1d6 if a primary feature. Hmm, perhaps take a cue from Monks and unarmed damage. Normal users of a skill do the basic "unarmed" damage, but those with enough levels in classes that have it as a class skill do a higher amount of damage. -Drachasor
Drachasor 06-27-05, 09:03 PM	On the other hand, there has to be room for failure as well. If you're trying to convince the mayor to let you out of jail and you fail your roll, does that mean you fail completely? In combat, you get to take another swing unless you get knocked out first. Does your obstacle get to "knock you out"? Or do you only get to keep knocking off challenge points as long as you roll successfully? Clearly for opposed roll situations (which may well include many "inanimate" challenges) you will be damaging each other, with each person have a certain "AC", though the hitpoints might just be some fixed number for the given challenge (each person has the same number, or it is based off stats/level/circumstancials). So the Mayor wins if he gets rid of your Challenge Points before you get rid of his. Naturally there will be some minutia to sort through and lay out. Clearly for DMs it will need to be explained that most social interactions aren't challenges, for instance, if the Mayor is a close personal friend then it might not qualify as a challenge (it's trivial). Almost all purchasing won't be challenges. But that can be dealt with in more detail after the system is fully--or at least more fully--formed. I'll post an update tonight hopefully, perhaps tomorrow. I think I'll just edit my original post and then bump the thread. Thanks for all the input and help, btw. -Drachasor
Gilean 06-28-05, 03:41 AM	Sounds interesting. With skills relying on items (alchemy, lockpicking, etc.) give different items values like those of different weapons. For skills not using them, refer to monk rules.