Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZenZ 07-08-07, 12:28 AM	Friends, I dug up a few old school rules that where created by Greg Stafford and used in his game Pendragon by Chaosium. I always thought that this concept was a gen of ROLE PLAY genius! I tweaked it a bit for D&D but you could use it for any setting. It might work in place of Alignment. See what you think... These dualistic factors can be found in everyone. They define a person’s feelings and general tenancies. The traits and passions are presented in opposed pairs. The total value of each pair must equal 20 with a 10 in each trait as mid point. No trait can be higher than 19 or lower than 1. When the opportunity arises a role can be required by the GM/ DM. The player rolls 1d20 for his character first against the desired result (or perceived desirable by the player). Should the die result is equal to or lesser than this number the character performs in the desired manor as the player has intended. If the role fails the player again rolls a d20 but this time against the undesired result. If the die result is equal to or lesser than this number the character performs in the undesired manor. If both rolls fail the player dictates how the character acts the game moves on. Example: Yvane of Iron Keep has captured a kobold while exploring a dungeon with a group of companions. Yvane has been known to be a truthful and valiant fighter but he does have the tendency to be cruel (Merciful 5 Cruel 15). The player wants Yvane to question the kobold and opts to show mercy. The DM requests a roll knowing Yvane is not the kind of fellow to spare a foe. Yvane rolls an 11 on a d20, well above his Merciful rating of 5. The Player then has Yvane roll again, this time with a 7, which is less than his rating of 15. Yvane butchers the squealing kobold without a second thought much to the horror of his fellow heroes. The Traits and Passions Chaste/ Lustful To be Chaste is to be faithful to ones cultural mores in regard to sexual relations. Lustful describes sexual desire and implies frequent activity without a commitment between partners. Energetic/ Lazy A person who favors hard work and attempts to apply one self to the task at hand is considered Energetic. A person who would rather have others do tedious work and is generally sedentary is considered Lazy. Forgiving/ Vengeful To be Forgiving is to take insult with injury especially from comments or other non-threatening activities. To seek out revenge for all slights, real or imagined, is Vengeful. Generous/ Selfish A Generous person shares and often gives gifts to show affection, sponsorship, or admiration. A Selfish person has the desire to accumulate material property and act only in his own best interest. Honest/ Deceitful To deal truthfully in matters of importance without concern to the consequences and to be reliable is considered Honest. The Deceitful person is likely to distort the truth to his own end. Modest/ Proud The Modest person does not seek glory and accepts to merely doing deeds rather than the rewards that come from them. A Proud person gets pleasure from hearing about or boasting about his deeds. He may have an inflated version of himself and refuse to accept the opinions of others. Just/ Arbitrary Simply put the Just person can tell right from wrong and is capable of making an impartial judgment. Arbitrary people use information other than right and wrong to make decisions. They often respond to judgments on an emotional level. Trusting/ Suspicious The Trusting person believes the information he receives without the inclination to suspect falsehoods. The Suspicious person is a jealous skeptic who trusts no one. Merciful/ Cruel The Merciful person is willing to extend pity and help to the weak, poor, and often the enemy. A Cruel person has little concern for the feelings and state of others and may even enjoy their discomfort and troubles. Pious/ Worldly A Pious person shows is concerned with the spiritual matters in his life and the implications that come form his activities. A Worldly person sees spiritual matters as mundane and believes that he is the one in control of his life. Temperate/ Indulgent The Temperate person takes only what he needs to live and abstains from the excesses of food and drink. The Indulgent person takes great pleasure from food, drink, and other delights and enjoys them to excess. Valorous/ Cowardly To be Valorous is a willingness to place yourself in the way of danger for the sake of victory. To be Cowardly is to be fearful and attempt to avoid dangerous encounters.
Fireclave 07-08-07, 02:19 AM	Interesting concept. As a player, I wouldn't want use this system because it's complicated, would slow the game with all that extra rolling, and takes away my control over my own character. But it seems like it could be a useful tool for DM's to add a bit of randomness into the actions of their NPCs. But as a replacement for the standard D&D alignment system. The two systems don't measure the same thing. If anything, all of these traits seem like they would be listed in addition to Law/Chaos and Good/Evil. :twocents:
Lutezian_the_Lettercad 07-08-07, 07:37 AM	Ah, Pendragon, that most noble of games. Many good times there. I do indeed think that would be an appropriate way to contain player actions and keep them from devolving into "I don't care how good I am or if he's giving up, this SOB just killed so and so, he's dead." The only thing missing from Zenz's article is a system for setting up player's numbers. With a little work, choosing a D&D alignment could form the basis of your characters numbers. (EX: Neutral Good would start a character with something along the lines of 15 in Forgiving, Generous, Honest, and Merciful with a 5 in their corresponding trait.) Some classes would probably alter a characters traits as well. (EX: Clerics would automatically start with Pious 15/Worldly 5, because of their faith.) Then add a few points for players to play around with. Include a system to monitor the number of rolls for any given trait to see if enough actions would have warranted an increase and corresponding decrease in a trait pair every level up. This could be a fine system to accurately monitor when a character actually changes alignment as well. On the issue of losing control of your character. You design them, you choose where their personality strengths are, and now you would actually have to play them that way. It could make for many a memorable moment. The only difficulty I could see in this system would be classes that restrict the alteration of alignment, because with enough poor roles your Paladin might have just given into evil and fallen. Though now that I consider the matter it would be difficult seeing as a Paladin would first have to miss the role for their goodly trait which would be high, and then roll really well (or poorly if you will) on their negative trait which would be low, because without the second roll the Paladin would still get to choose their action.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-08-07, 07:44 AM	This breaks one of the basic tenets of 3E - a character is always under the control of the player unless there is explicit magical domination or the like going on. A character should never be forced to behave in some fashion because the DM arbitrarily decided that's how they should behave, or because some die roll said so - an honest character shouldn't have to just suddenly up and lie at random, which is essentially what this system would force him to do at least occasionally.
Rhialto 07-08-07, 11:15 AM	The only difficulty I could see in this system would be classes that restrict the alteration of alignment, because with enough poor rolls your Paladin might have just given into evil and fallen. I'd say only those situations where both the "do the right thing" roll and the "do the wrong thing" roll failed. that way, the only thing that would cause these tracks to move is the ones where the player was making the decision independant of the dice rolls.
ZenZ 07-08-07, 03:47 PM	While I agree that a player should have control over his or her character how many of you have played with Paladins who don't seem Lawful Good when it comes to concepts like mercy or piety? Remember I said that the DM determines when a PC would have to make a roll. If Justin's Bard is a drunk and a player and is confronted by a lovely woman with a glass of wine he might 'Metagame' and think, hey Roland isn't in the mood for a drink and romance. With a nudge from the DM he makes a roll. And also the player sets the numbers, not random, and not the DM. Hey this system isn't perfect. Just an idea that came from another game and I thought I would share. This concept WAS used in D&D basic set in the Mystra Northern Reaches supplement.
Thanuir 07-09-07, 06:43 AM	Instead of forcing actions (which the normal Pendragon rules do only in extreme cases, where personality is 15+, IIRC), maybe the character suffers a -4 penalty when acting against the roll outcome. Or something similar.
Nevercme 07-09-07, 09:57 PM	So my paladin wants to go on a murdering spree to turn evil and can't 'cause I rolled wrong? So my cowardly wizard can't do a brave thing because I rolled badly? I am sorry, but this kills the concept of redemption, changes, and falls. I would never play with this system. Personally I like the enlightened spirit or whatever it is where a warlock redeems himself/herself Just my :twocents:
Werral 07-11-07, 03:46 PM	I would also add passions if you want to port in the Pendragon system. Passions in Pendragon are stuff like, Love (Family), Loyalty (liege), Hate (Saxons) or whatever. I think before thrying this in D&D you should try playing Pendragon to see how it works in play. Then take what you like into D&D if that's what you want. Your system controls players way more than the Pendragon system. Under Pendragon you can usually always do what you want but acting in a certain way gets you an experience check which means your trait values change. So if the Bard decides to not try for the bar wench he gains a chaste check - maybe he's not the lady's man he once was... Also this might actually help KEEP a character under player conrol - a Chaste character might resist Charm/dominate better if the controller tried to force him to do something lustful or whatever.
ZenZ 07-13-07, 04:11 PM	I have played Pendragon and own a couple versions/ editions of the game. I don't think it takes anything away since you, as a player, design the character the way you want. Pendragon does have a system that 'adjusts' the numbers based upon successes and failures (which can be cool, your cowardly wizard gets to bump his Valorous up +1 for each time he makes the roll). Well I'm sorry that so many people dismiss the idea and claim it ruins the ability to "Role" play. I'm big into story telling styled D&D and I think it can work. Just my opinion. I think it can be a fun tool to enhance the Role Play element of the game. How fun would it be to watch Mike play "Barihelm the Dwarven Barbarian" who tends to be Merciful and Honest. What a story to tell about the time he offered a pardon to the ogre chieftain after kicking his tail! And then tried to lie but just couldn't keep it a secret! I think that too many players often play all their characters with the same temperament and theme. This might offer them a way to expand and explore.
ZenZ 07-20-07, 12:15 AM	Note to the interested. Veteran game designer Wolfgang Bauer mentioned using this system in a recent issue of Dungeon Magazine. When I read it I thought "Wow, just what I was thinking!"
Thanuir 07-21-07, 03:41 AM	I have played Pendragon and own a couple versions/ editions of the game. I don't think it takes anything away since you, as a player, design the character the way you want. Pendragon does have a system that 'adjusts' the numbers based upon successes and failures (which can be cool, your cowardly wizard gets to bump his Valorous up +1 for each time he makes the roll).Players can decide the general course of actions, but specific situations are what matters. I suggest giving the players an option to not roll but make the decision themselves (once per day per point of cha modifier, or four times a session, or some other limit). This will shift the relevant trait the way player decided his character would act. So, bard with lustful 14/chaste 6 can decide to be chaste, but the relevant stats will be lustful 13/chaste 7 after that. Provide some benefit for having extreme traits (like, say, 16+). Actions points, experience, whatever. This will create an interesting dynamic: Players want extreme traits, so they have an incentive to have cahracters with extreme behaviours. On the other hand, someone with lustful 16, when encountering a succubus, might want to be a little more chaste this time. But that would take away whatver benefit the character got from being so lustful.
ZenZ 07-21-07, 12:30 PM	Than, I 'd say that's fair. I like it!
trapspringer 07-21-07, 08:39 PM	Thanuir's got a hell of a sales pitch. It's a neat enough idea that I'd like to see something like it wrote up in an official book, only done right; not like those goofy religious dedication abilities that are so minor they'll never impact the game.
Thanuir 07-31-07, 04:24 AM	Thanuir's got a hell of a sales pitch. It's a neat enough idea that I'd like to see something like it wrote up in an official book, only done right; not like those goofy religious dedication abilities that are so minor they'll never impact the game.We can always make up an unobvious version, make it free, publish it, and hope someone steals it. Submit it to some ezine or publish a PDF, if someone has the will and the way.
ZenZ 07-31-07, 01:55 PM	Happy to help out. I would love to see the D&D 2nd edition rules that mirrored these in the gazetteer of the Northern Reaches. They might give us a few ideas too! Should you suggest a free web site I can write these up as a pdf and post them. Could even throw in a little free art.
Thanuir 08-01-07, 11:51 AM	We can work out a finished version here. The folks at the Campaign Builders' Guild (http://www.thecbg.org) would probably be happy to publish it.
psychoticbarber 08-02-07, 05:31 PM	I'd like to help, if I might, with the development of this idea. My main issue right now comes from the chances of acting against your nature. Ordinarily, to overcome some sort of mental block, D&D requires a will-save. If your traits in this case were 15/5, it requires two rolls to overcome, each of which is a 25% chance of success to overcome your nature. So. To overcome your 15 nature, you must first roll a 5 or less. 25% chance. IF that fails, you must then roll to avoid acting in your normal nature, at a 16 or higher. 25% chance. p(Probability)= 1/4 to succeed at first roll. p = 3/4 to fail at first roll. p = 3/4 x 3/4 to succeed second roll [which is to act according to nature] 3/4 x 3/4 = 3/4 (second roll does not happen unless the first fails) p = 3/4 x 1/4 to fail both rolls. 3/4 x 1/4 = 3/16 or 18.75% Your best hope of success is to pass a 1/4 chance roll on your first roll. After that, your chances of doing as you want reduce to 3/16. Unless this is carefully tended by the DM, there is, at best, a 25% chance that a character will be able to act against his nature, and it is not at all related to that character's Willpower/Wisdom. I think that it should be explicitly stated that rolls to affect PC actions should be extremely rare, if not non-existant. Rather than force the character into an action the player doesn't want to follow, it would make more sense (as with alignment) to have the player change the numbers in the traits to reflect their general actions. What should the numbers be used for, then? Guidelines. If the Player has a way in which he wants the character to act (*cough* Paladin *cough*) these numbers make it easier for a Paladin to follow their code, because the player has a better understanding of how his character IS acting. A Palading scoring highly on the abritrary side of Justice/Abitrary is probably teetering on the edge and should consider his actions, and whether or not they reflect the code he has sworn. I really, really like this, but I'm not sure I like it as a game MECHANIC.
Thanuir 08-03-07, 09:05 AM	Step the first: Determining the starting values of traits. Random method: Roll 3d6 for each in order. Semirandom method: Roll 3d6 for each, sort as desired. Balanced: 16, 15, 14, 2x13, 3x12, 4x11 Extreme: One of each value from 11 to 20, plus an additional 11 and 12. Voluntary: Player decides. Point buy Trait value | cost 11-13 | 0 14 | 1 15 | 2 16 | 3 17 | 4 18 | 6 19 | 9 20 | 12 0 points is extremely boring, 5 is character with some personality, 7 is good for starting PCs, 10+ creates strange or very resolute characters. Step the second: Traits influence behaviour Whenever a remarkable character (PC, BBEG, the king, etc.) must make decision that clearly engages a pair of traits, the relevant player must make a personality check, use a passion point (see below), or take d6 points of charisma damage due to self-doubt, identity crisis etc. Personality check: Player tells what he wants the character to do (default to higher of the personality traits if player can't decide or does not care). Roll d20 + wisdom bonus, if any; if result equals or exceeds the opposing personality trait, character acts as the player desired. If not, character acts according to the opposing trait. Example: Gron the orcish barbarian (wisdom 9) is not known for his chasteful ways: Chaste 4 / lustful 16. A beautiful female player character walks past him in a crowded bar. The orc does notice the heavily armed companions of said woman, but is tempted by her good looks. GM decides that a personality check is in order. The orc tries to be chaste (not do anything stupid) so GM rolls d20 with DC 16 (lustful trait of Gron). Result of the roll: 12, so Gron decides his strength is more than adequate to deal with any who disapprove of his attention to her. Step the third: Skills and saves A successful diplomacy check DC 15 temporarily modifies a personality trait by 2, up to 16 but not below 4. Duration: Until the end of the scene (encounter, combat, negotiation, whatever). An extreme trait (16+, 4-) makes will saves harder or easier, depending on the circumstances: +2 if resisting something where an extreme trait is helpful, -2 if it hinders. Against skills the modifiers are +4 and -4, respectively. Example: Hurog the knight (wisdom 13, just 17) is being persuaded to betray his lord, known for his poor treatment of peasants. The diplomacy DC is modified by -4 due to the just tendencies of the knight. Step the fourth: Passion points, personality change Player characters start with 3 + charisma modifier passion points. Maximum for them is charisma score (any in excess of this are simply discarded). Player can, in lieu of making a personality check, use a passion point to decide the way his or her character will act. This changes the relevant personality traits by single point (if player decides to act in a valorous manner, valour goes up by one and cowardice down by one). Player can also first roll and then change the way his or her character will act by spending 3 passion points. Step the fifth: Desperate actions, life goals, quests, miraculous recovery Passion points have other uses, too. Miraculous recovery: One passion point can be discarded to heal 1 hit point and stabilise the character. If character is ever reduced to -10 hp or below, all remaining passion points are used in hope of recovery. This is a full round action (that the character can take even if unconscious or dead). Desperate actions: A single passion point grants a +2 morale bonus to a single check, save, AC against specific attack, spell DC, initiative, or such. 3 points give +3, four points +4, etc. Quests: Character can select a quest. This must be discussed with and accepted by the GM. Good quests: Kill Finangal, who slaughtered the village I was born in. Marry the princess. Master the art of commanding the dead. Protect the throne. Give my daughter a good life and a caring husband. 2 passion points give a permanent +1 morale bonus to rolls and such that directly and concretely bring the character closer to the goal. 4 points give +2, 6 +3, etc. This bonus notably applies to personality checks. Step the sixth: Getting more shiny passion points When gaining a level, character gets level/2 passion points (use the level just acquired). When completing a quest (GM's call), get double the passion points invested in that quest. E.g. If Gron has 4 points (+2 bonus) invested in slaying Finangol, he gets 8 passion points back after Finangol is dead. In addition, when witnessing good roleplaying (more exact terms ought to be discussed before implementing this), GM should immediately give a passion point to the relevant player. Step the seventh: Exteme personality traits 16 gives the first listed benefit, 20 the second. Chaste: +2/+4 inherent bonus to fortitude saves Lustful: +4/+6 morale bonus to gather information and bluff Energetic: +4/+8 inherent bonus to initiative Lazy: +2/+4 morale to will saves Forgiving: +4/+6 morale to heal and caster level for healing spells Vengeful: +1/+3 morale to damage Generous: +4/+6 inherent to gather info, diplomacy Selfish: +4/+8 inherent to maximum hit points Honest: +4/+6 morale to sense motive, diplomacy Deceitful: +4/+6 morale to bluff, disguise Modest: +4/+8 inherent to hide and disguise to not be noticed in crowds and to not attract attention Proud: +4/+6 morale to perform, will against fear Just: +4/+6 inherent to diplomacy and will saves against chaos spells Arbitrary: +4/+8 inherent to feint in combat and will saves against dominate person/monster Trusting: +2/+4 additional morale bonus for being aided by another Suspicious: +2/+6 morale to sense motive, spot Merciful: +4/+6 morale to heal and diplomacy Cruel: +d4/+d6 sneak attack damage Pious: Can use an orison/a first level divine spell once a day as a spell-like ability Worldly: +4/+8 inherent to survival, knowledge (local) Temperate: +2/+3 morale to concentration, will saves Indulgent: +2/+3 inherent to fortitude saves, maximum hit points Valorous: All fear effects lowered by one/two degrees (affects others if paladin with aura of courage) Cowardly: +1/+2 morale to AC I am not terribly proud of the above bonuses. Balance issues: PCs become more powerful, but hopefully not significantly so. Other major characters get the same benefit. Random mooks should not. /braindump
psychoticbarber 08-03-07, 10:11 AM	Step the fourth: Passion points, personality change Player characters start with 3 + charisma modifier passion points. Maximum for them is charisma score (any in excess of this are simply discarded). Player can, in lieu of making a personality check, use a passion point to decide the way his or her character will act. This changes the relevant personality traits by single point (if player decides to act in a valorous manner, valour goes up by one and cowardice down by one). Player can also first roll and then change the way his or her character will act by spending 3 passion points. My only issue with this is at first level you get 7 or 8, TOPS, and every decision you make will be affected by one of your traits. I fear, and I'm hoping I'll be wrong, that it will introduce too much randomness into the game and reduce the control a player has over her character. I just see a bunch of chaotic neutral characters with 10 in every trait ;).
CaoSlayer 08-03-07, 11:02 AM	Well, I rule say that if you have a 15 or more in a trait and you want to do something compatible to the trait, then you dont need to roll but if you ever want to do something against the trait, you must roll for acting out of character. Additionally, you could make them raise their traits by rolling either a natural 1 or a 20 in either check. In the first example, the knight would not require to roll for being cruel because he is already pretty cruel, but would require to roll as the example if he decided to be merciful for once. At least I would try to introduce the valorous/coward one for a system of morale checks since that by actual rules everybody fights to death.
Holy_Beholder 08-06-07, 04:09 PM	I like the idea, but not the implementation. I think that there are way too many traits, and it forces a player to do something too much. I do like the morale check, since it is really hard to get players to run away sometimes(kill half the party in one round, and 90% of groups will still try and fight it out) I think that there should probably be no more than 6 of these traits, and they could only apply to NPCs, except for courage/cowardice(it seems a more D&Dish name).
Thanuir 08-08-07, 07:41 AM	My only issue with this is at first level you get 7 or 8, TOPS, and every decision you make will be affected by one of your traits. I fear, and I'm hoping I'll be wrong, that it will introduce too much randomness into the game and reduce the control a player has over her character.The rules should not be used in boring situations, of course, much like other rules are not really used when there is nothing happening. But, well, I am not seeing it. Could you elaborate a bit? Well, I rule say that if you have a 15 or more in a trait and you want to do something compatible to the trait, then you dont need to roll but if you ever want to do something against the trait, you must roll for acting out of character.That's a good idea, though I'd make the limit 16. Additionally, you could make them raise their traits by rolling either a natural 1 or a 20 in either check.Not a good idea. The traits are pretty important part of the character, and changing them randomly would defeat their purpose. Maybe allow spending a passion point or three to change the trait when rolling a nat 1 or 20?
ZenZ 08-08-07, 03:23 PM	I believe that Greg Stafford had the original rules set up that by making a roll one way or the other would adjust your Trait/ Passion score. I like the idea that you can avoid a roll but must adjust your Trait/ Passion. A Lazy character states that he wants to help set up camp for the night in the belief that a Bugbear attack will happen after sunset. Since this goes against his Lazy 14 Energetic 6 he must adjust the numbers to Lazy 13 and Energetic 7 or he could roll the dice and watch the result. I think this sits better with people who like the system as a background element but don't want the dice to tell them how to role play.
trapspringer 08-08-07, 04:42 PM	... I think this sits better with people who like the system as a background element but don't want the dice to tell them how to role play. I agree, especially for players. The reason fear effects suxxor is because they don't contribute to the game, they remove a player from it. This system is neat because it has the potential to encourage RP, and it'd be sad to see it limit players' instead.
Thanuir 08-17-07, 11:06 AM	Okay, the boring variant. Have traits. Extreme values give bonuses. When a trait is tested in a significant situation, roll one die to determine the character's course of action. Player can override the result by permanently altering the trait by one point to the relevant direction. Boring, but will likely work.
Holy_Beholder 08-17-07, 12:51 PM	I would also give roleplaying xp for not overriding the trait. Secretly.
Thanuir 08-20-07, 04:37 AM	I would also give roleplaying xp for not overriding the trait. Secretly.Why the secrecy? If nobody knows about it, what's the point?
trapspringer 08-20-07, 11:04 AM	Yea, if the subject doesn't come to associate the reward with the behavior for any reason, the conditioning won't take effect. Bein' as how the subject won't know he's being rewarded (and bein' as the reward is based entirely on perception in this instance), you won't actually encourage the behavior in question.