Treating Monk firsts as Natural Weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Treating Monk firsts as Natural Weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FlameLover
10-27-05, 08:58 AM Now i was reading another of these INA debates and it sorta struck me - why *isn't* a Monk's Unarmed Strike just treated as a Natural Weapon? I mean it'd make things so much simpler - you'd get an extra attack with it but at a -5 penalty and all that. The only thing is see wrong with this is you'd only get one attack even with a BAB of 6 or higher so would need to just clarify you do get extra attacks based on BAB unlike other Natural Weapons (but it'd be one for all intents and purposes).

I can't see anything wrong with doing it this way - so what do you think? I mean this would make things alow simpler i reckon. Plus i like the idea of being able to add and extra US attack on after your normal ones during a Full Attack.
Mind Rogue
10-27-05, 01:11 PM Essentially, a monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon depending on whichever is more advantageous for the situation. When calculating how many attacks you get, it counts as a manufactured weapon because they get iterative attacks rather than just getting a single slam. When you try to take INA it counts as a natural weapon because that allows you to meet the prerequisites. For Magic Fang and Magic Weapon, it counts as a natural and a manufactured weapon respectfully. Essentially, if you need one or the other, it is that.

I guess feasibly you could full attack with your kukri and than tack on an extra US at -5, but generally you're going to be better off just full attacking with your US. Also, if you have TWF or the like, you can instead choose to fight with two weapons (meaning if you have the feats you can add extra US on top of it) although all attacks would suffer a -2 penalty (but your US would be only at that -2).
Lord Welkerfan
10-27-05, 10:53 PM When you try to take INA it counts as a natural weapon because that allows you to meet the prerequisites.

Acutally, even though I disagree with the decision, the FAQ did state that a monk cannot take INA with his unarmed strikes, as "the prerequisites are not an effect in and of themselves." Thus, no INA for Monks by the RAW.
Mind Rogue
10-27-05, 11:38 PM Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (Monster
Manual, page 304) to improve his unarmed strike?
Yes. As stated on page 41 of the Player’s Handbook, a
monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured
weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and
effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats
such as Improved Natural Attack.
Barring multiclassing, the earliest a monk could take this
feat would be at 6th level (due to the base attack bonus
prerequisite), at which point her unarmed strike damage would
improve from 1d8 to 2d6 (which represents an average increase
of +2.5 points of damage). The same monk at 20th level would
deal 3d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike.
This sounds to me like they can take INA.
FlameLover
10-28-05, 12:28 AM It wasn't the FAQ that was saying that Lord Welkerfan it was actually just Thorak...

Anyway i think treating unarmed strikes as NW fully works fine but when you take IUS it should make it receive extra attacks based on BAB *if* it's selected as your primary NW. Otherwise it only has one attack and at a -5 penalty (and if you're wielding a weapon then you need atleast one hand free and even then you'd be TWF which means you'd take lots of penalties... but still only one attack). It's still a little hazy how to handle them with TWF and manufactured weapons but i like the ability to Full-Attack with a Greatsword then get an extra kick in there but at a -5 penalty.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-28-05, 12:57 AM I've been dying to rewrite the monk's unarmed strike so it works like a monster's attack pattern. Flurry of blows gives you access to multiple natural weapons (that can also benefit from spells, effects, and I daresay even feats, that improve or enhance manufactured weapons). Each time you get flurry of blows, you pick natural weapons like "punch," "kick," or "headbutt."

At 1st level you get either one natural weapon that gets 1.5 times Strength to damage (kick, hammerfist, slam) or two natural weapons that get full Strength (punches, kicks, strikes).
At 8th level, you can either increase the base damage of your primary weapons or select two more secondary weapons (knees, elbows, claws).
At 14th level, you can select a special ability such as improved grab, rake, or pounce, improve the base damage of your existing weapons, or select two more secondary weapons.
At 20th level, you can select a bonus feat from a yet to be written monk list, a special ability, or improve the base damage of your natural weapons.

The names of your natural weapons are mostly flavor. I don't have time right now to finalize lists of names, abilities, etc. Obviously, the base unarmed damage won't be as high, so this will have to be evened out in other ways (more powerful abilities, more attacks, things like that).
Ansalander
11-01-05, 10:11 AM I know this is an old thread, but INA ** IS ** allowed for monks. It is in the new FAQ.
The Hive Custodian
11-01-05, 10:56 AM Personally, I think manufactured weapons, natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and grapples should all be based on the same weapon rules, and that unarmed strikes and grapples should be a subset of natural weapons. It would make everything more consistent.
Mind Rogue
11-01-05, 12:58 PM That would be nice, but it would require figuring out some way to balance the extra natural weapons against somebody who can only wield one weapon at a time. The reason natural weapons don't normally get iterative attacks is because it is assumed that the higher level monsters will have multiple natural weapons to compensate. If you gave them both extra natural weapons and iterative attacks... well it gets to be too much. I guess you could limit all of the 'secondary' weapons to only one attack.. until someone starts picking up improved multiweapon fighting and the like. It would also mean though that all of the attacks would be at -4 (or -2 with an appropriate feat), but secondary attacks would use the full BaB.
FlameLover
11-01-05, 09:57 PM I like Custodian's idea. Making them Natural Attack (Unarmed) and Natural Attack (Grapple) would really clear things up. I also like the idea of your Primary getting itterative attacks. So for humanoids your primary one would be Natural Attack (Unarmed) and therefore it would allow you to Full-Attack with it at full BAB and attacks -OR- get one extra at the end of a Full-Attack but at a -5 penalty. I'm starting to like where this is going...

Ofcourse a number of feats would nolonger work with this system but it could make things alot clearer. All creatures would have a Natural Attack (Unarmed) which would be based on size for damage with all the others they normally get as stuff like Natural Attack (Bite) or Natural Attack (Claws). If Primary you get full number of attacks in Full-Attack and if secondary you get one extra when you Full-Attack. Feats like Improved Multi-Weapon fighting would stay the same or maybe remove any penalties for just one? (So you'd choose just one when you pick the feat but it has no penalty on attacks).

So yeah not sure on specifics but I like the idea of making them sub-groups.
Millennium
11-02-05, 05:43 PM Now i was reading another of these INA debates and it sorta struck me - why *isn't* a Monk's Unarmed Strike just treated as a Natural Weapon?
Because it isn't one. Monks (and other characters with Improved Unarmed Strike) have learned to use their bodies more effectively in combat, but the fact remains that the human body was not designed for (or didn't evolve along lines advantageous to) fighting. A monk doesn't grow claws, fangs, horns, or anything of the sort; he has no natural weapons. The best he can do, even with his Improved Unarmed Strike, is emulate certain aspects of those natural weapons. A reasonable facsimile, but not the real thing.
I mean it'd make things so much simpler - you'd get an extra attack with it but at a -5 penalty and all that.
It would also be nerf the monk severely. The current system gives you an extra attack at your full BAB. In exchange for this, all of your attacks that round take a slight penalty (much less than -5) which eventually disappears. It also doesn't account for Greater Flurry, which gives you two extra attacks at your full BAB.
Sledged
11-02-05, 08:21 PM I've been toying around with the idea of making unarmed strikes natural attacks. Here's how I imagine it would work.

Creatures of the humanoid type would get two slam attacks that deal non-lethal damage as secondary natural attacks. So instead of incurring AoOs, unarmed strikes would do 1d3 + (0.5 x str bonus) points of damage with -5 penalties to attack. There would also be the added benefit of threatening the squares within your reach without having to take a feat. However, there needs to be a feat to improve the attack:

BOOST SECONDARY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Choose one type of natural weaponry.
Prerequisite: secondary natural attack.
Benefit: This feat allows you the option of taking your selected secondary natural weaponry to become primary weaponry with -3 penalty to attack. This choice is made during your turn before your attack, if selected to be the primary weaponry, no other weaponry can be used in the attack sequence (natural or otherwise).
If the weaponry deals non-lethal damage, you are allowed the option of dealing lethal damage with this weaponry instead.
Special: A monk automatically gains Boost Secondary Attack as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it.
A fighter may select Boost Secondary Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Obviously, monks would need to be reworked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FlameLover 10-27-05, 08:58 AM	Now i was reading another of these INA debates and it sorta struck me - why isn't a Monk's Unarmed Strike just treated as a Natural Weapon? I mean it'd make things so much simpler - you'd get an extra attack with it but at a -5 penalty and all that. The only thing is see wrong with this is you'd only get one attack even with a BAB of 6 or higher so would need to just clarify you do get extra attacks based on BAB unlike other Natural Weapons (but it'd be one for all intents and purposes). I can't see anything wrong with doing it this way - so what do you think? I mean this would make things alow simpler i reckon. Plus i like the idea of being able to add and extra US attack on after your normal ones during a Full Attack.
Mind Rogue 10-27-05, 01:11 PM	Essentially, a monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon depending on whichever is more advantageous for the situation. When calculating how many attacks you get, it counts as a manufactured weapon because they get iterative attacks rather than just getting a single slam. When you try to take INA it counts as a natural weapon because that allows you to meet the prerequisites. For Magic Fang and Magic Weapon, it counts as a natural and a manufactured weapon respectfully. Essentially, if you need one or the other, it is that. I guess feasibly you could full attack with your kukri and than tack on an extra US at -5, but generally you're going to be better off just full attacking with your US. Also, if you have TWF or the like, you can instead choose to fight with two weapons (meaning if you have the feats you can add extra US on top of it) although all attacks would suffer a -2 penalty (but your US would be only at that -2).
Lord Welkerfan 10-27-05, 10:53 PM	When you try to take INA it counts as a natural weapon because that allows you to meet the prerequisites. Acutally, even though I disagree with the decision, the FAQ did state that a monk cannot take INA with his unarmed strikes, as "the prerequisites are not an effect in and of themselves." Thus, no INA for Monks by the RAW.
Mind Rogue 10-27-05, 11:38 PM	Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual, page 304) to improve his unarmed strike? Yes. As stated on page 41 of the Player’s Handbook, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack. Barring multiclassing, the earliest a monk could take this feat would be at 6th level (due to the base attack bonus prerequisite), at which point her unarmed strike damage would improve from 1d8 to 2d6 (which represents an average increase of +2.5 points of damage). The same monk at 20th level would deal 3d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike. This sounds to me like they can take INA.
FlameLover 10-28-05, 12:28 AM	It wasn't the FAQ that was saying that Lord Welkerfan it was actually just Thorak... Anyway i think treating unarmed strikes as NW fully works fine but when you take IUS it should make it receive extra attacks based on BAB if it's selected as your primary NW. Otherwise it only has one attack and at a -5 penalty (and if you're wielding a weapon then you need atleast one hand free and even then you'd be TWF which means you'd take lots of penalties... but still only one attack). It's still a little hazy how to handle them with TWF and manufactured weapons but i like the ability to Full-Attack with a Greatsword then get an extra kick in there but at a -5 penalty.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-28-05, 12:57 AM	I've been dying to rewrite the monk's unarmed strike so it works like a monster's attack pattern. Flurry of blows gives you access to multiple natural weapons (that can also benefit from spells, effects, and I daresay even feats, that improve or enhance manufactured weapons). Each time you get flurry of blows, you pick natural weapons like "punch," "kick," or "headbutt." At 1st level you get either one natural weapon that gets 1.5 times Strength to damage (kick, hammerfist, slam) or two natural weapons that get full Strength (punches, kicks, strikes). At 8th level, you can either increase the base damage of your primary weapons or select two more secondary weapons (knees, elbows, claws). At 14th level, you can select a special ability such as improved grab, rake, or pounce, improve the base damage of your existing weapons, or select two more secondary weapons. At 20th level, you can select a bonus feat from a yet to be written monk list, a special ability, or improve the base damage of your natural weapons. The names of your natural weapons are mostly flavor. I don't have time right now to finalize lists of names, abilities, etc. Obviously, the base unarmed damage won't be as high, so this will have to be evened out in other ways (more powerful abilities, more attacks, things like that).
Ansalander 11-01-05, 10:11 AM	I know this is an old thread, but INA IS allowed for monks. It is in the new FAQ.
The Hive Custodian 11-01-05, 10:56 AM	Personally, I think manufactured weapons, natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and grapples should all be based on the same weapon rules, and that unarmed strikes and grapples should be a subset of natural weapons. It would make everything more consistent.
Mind Rogue 11-01-05, 12:58 PM	That would be nice, but it would require figuring out some way to balance the extra natural weapons against somebody who can only wield one weapon at a time. The reason natural weapons don't normally get iterative attacks is because it is assumed that the higher level monsters will have multiple natural weapons to compensate. If you gave them both extra natural weapons and iterative attacks... well it gets to be too much. I guess you could limit all of the 'secondary' weapons to only one attack.. until someone starts picking up improved multiweapon fighting and the like. It would also mean though that all of the attacks would be at -4 (or -2 with an appropriate feat), but secondary attacks would use the full BaB.
FlameLover 11-01-05, 09:57 PM	I like Custodian's idea. Making them Natural Attack (Unarmed) and Natural Attack (Grapple) would really clear things up. I also like the idea of your Primary getting itterative attacks. So for humanoids your primary one would be Natural Attack (Unarmed) and therefore it would allow you to Full-Attack with it at full BAB and attacks -OR- get one extra at the end of a Full-Attack but at a -5 penalty. I'm starting to like where this is going... Ofcourse a number of feats would nolonger work with this system but it could make things alot clearer. All creatures would have a Natural Attack (Unarmed) which would be based on size for damage with all the others they normally get as stuff like Natural Attack (Bite) or Natural Attack (Claws). If Primary you get full number of attacks in Full-Attack and if secondary you get one extra when you Full-Attack. Feats like Improved Multi-Weapon fighting would stay the same or maybe remove any penalties for just one? (So you'd choose just one when you pick the feat but it has no penalty on attacks). So yeah not sure on specifics but I like the idea of making them sub-groups.
Millennium 11-02-05, 05:43 PM	Now i was reading another of these INA debates and it sorta struck me - why isn't a Monk's Unarmed Strike just treated as a Natural Weapon? Because it isn't one. Monks (and other characters with Improved Unarmed Strike) have learned to use their bodies more effectively in combat, but the fact remains that the human body was not designed for (or didn't evolve along lines advantageous to) fighting. A monk doesn't grow claws, fangs, horns, or anything of the sort; he has no natural weapons. The best he can do, even with his Improved Unarmed Strike, is emulate certain aspects of those natural weapons. A reasonable facsimile, but not the real thing. I mean it'd make things so much simpler - you'd get an extra attack with it but at a -5 penalty and all that. It would also be nerf the monk severely. The current system gives you an extra attack at your full BAB. In exchange for this, all of your attacks that round take a slight penalty (much less than -5) which eventually disappears. It also doesn't account for Greater Flurry, which gives you two extra attacks at your full BAB.
Sledged 11-02-05, 08:21 PM	I've been toying around with the idea of making unarmed strikes natural attacks. Here's how I imagine it would work. Creatures of the humanoid type would get two slam attacks that deal non-lethal damage as secondary natural attacks. So instead of incurring AoOs, unarmed strikes would do 1d3 + (0.5 x str bonus) points of damage with -5 penalties to attack. There would also be the added benefit of threatening the squares within your reach without having to take a feat. However, there needs to be a feat to improve the attack: BOOST SECONDARY ATTACK [GENERAL] Choose one type of natural weaponry. Prerequisite: secondary natural attack. Benefit: This feat allows you the option of taking your selected secondary natural weaponry to become primary weaponry with -3 penalty to attack. This choice is made during your turn before your attack, if selected to be the primary weaponry, no other weaponry can be used in the attack sequence (natural or otherwise). If the weaponry deals non-lethal damage, you are allowed the option of dealing lethal damage with this weaponry instead. Special: A monk automatically gains Boost Secondary Attack as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it. A fighter may select Boost Secondary Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. Obviously, monks would need to be reworked.