Triple paragon combo, is it legal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Triple paragon combo, is it legal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vitarri_Whitemane
11-09-07, 02:04 PM I had an idea for an wandering half-elf character who doesn't so much become more experienced as he evolves. 1 Sorcerer/3 Half-elf/3 Human/10 Dragon Disciple/ 3 Half-Dragon is this legal?
Sinfire Titan
11-09-07, 02:11 PM I had an idea for an wandering half-elf character who doesn't so much become more experienced as he evolves. 1 Sorcerer/3 Half-elf/3 Human/10 Dragon Disciple/ 3 Half-Dragon is this legal?

I see nothing wrong with it.
Eerongal
11-09-07, 02:20 PM It's possible for a powerful magic effect such as shapechange, reincarnate, or wish to change a character's race. If a character has already taken racial paragon levels in his original race, he can never become a paragon of another race. However, such shapechanging and form-altering magics also cause no loss of a paragon's class abilities—the class abilities gained from racial paragon levels are affected no more or less drastically than benefits gained from having levels in any other class.

Divided Ancestry (Ex)
Unlike other racial paragons, half-elves can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After gaining at least one level as a half-elf paragon, a character can take either elf paragon levels or human paragon levels (but not both).

You can only have one paragon class, but half elf and half orc paragons make an exception allowing you access to one other paragon class, specifically human or orc/elf, no others.
blade265
11-10-07, 01:26 PM Half elf and Half Dragon will not stack.
The first thing one must consider when stacking any templates is whether or not the templates create any mutually exclusive paradoxes. You can't create a creature with both the half-fiend and half-dragon templates, in the same way you wouldn't create a half-orc using the the half-human and half-orc templates together. It's either a half-fiendish dragon or half-dragon fiend. or simply half orc in the latter case. "Half"- templates all work this way. Book of Templates p241
Eerongal
11-10-07, 01:49 PM Half elf and Half Dragon will not stack.
The first thing one must consider when stacking any templates is whether or not the templates create any mutually exclusive paradoxes. You can't create a creature with both the half-fiend and half-dragon templates, in the same way you wouldn't create a half-orc using the the half-human and half-orc templates together. It's either a half-fiendish dragon or half-dragon fiend. or simply half orc in the latter case. "Half"- templates all work this way. Book of Templates p241

the book of templates is not a wizards book, but a 3rd party supplement. Core, you can stack half-X templates all you want.
DarkChipmunk
11-10-07, 07:09 PM Furthermore this question has nothing to do with templates.

By RAW your build, sadly, cannot take Half-Dragon Paragon. If it were me DMing? I'd let you do it, because I think its awesome and it won't break the game any.
CrimsonDeath
11-11-07, 12:18 AM Half elf and Half Dragon will not stack.
The first thing one must consider when stacking any templates is whether or not the templates create any mutually exclusive paradoxes. You can't create a creature with both the half-fiend and half-dragon templates, in the same way you wouldn't create a half-orc using the the half-human and half-orc templates together. It's either a half-fiendish dragon or half-dragon fiend. or simply half orc in the latter case. "Half"- templates all work this way. Book of Templates p241

Actually, nothing stops you from applying the Half-Fiend template to an existing nongood Half-Dragon, nor the Half-Dragon template to an existing Half-Fiend. Both require a "living corporeal creature", with Half-Fiend specifying nongood creatures. The resulting creature would most likely, in actuality, be a quarter-Fiend, quarter-Dragon-- probably a Half-Fiend parent and a Half-Dragon parent. You could even, in fact, apply the Half-Fiend and Half-Dragon templates to a Half-Elf, creating a Quarter-Dragon Quarter-Feind Quarter Elf.

Also, I'm not aware of a Half-Human or Half-Orc template (although I am familiar with the Half-Orc race).
blade265
11-12-07, 03:40 AM Actually, nothing stops you from applying the Half-Fiend template to an existing nongood Half-Dragon, nor the Half-Dragon template to an existing Half-Fiend. Both require a "living corporeal creature", with Half-Fiend specifying nongood creatures. The resulting creature would most likely, in actuality, be a quarter-Fiend, quarter-Dragon-- probably a Half-Fiend parent and a Half-Dragon parent. You could even, in fact, apply the Half-Fiend and Half-Dragon templates to a Half-Elf, creating a Quarter-Dragon Quarter-Feind Quarter Elf.

Also, I'm not aware of a Half-Human or Half-Orc template (although I am familiar with the Half-Orc race).That was my mistake the half-elf is a race not a template and therefore can have a half-dragon template added, my bad. the following is from wizards : "Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support.

Templates have to be added to a base race. A template is not a base race, therefore you could not apply the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial template to only each other and end up with a working creature. Also, you cannot add both the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial templates to a human. The human has only 2 parents. A Human, and either a dragon or a celestial. The human can't be half of three different things.

A half-elf on the other hand, is a race, not a template. Therefore you could have a Half-dragon whose parents are a dragon and a half-elf. You would apply the Half-Dragon template to the half-elf race."
runestar
11-12-07, 03:46 AM Also, you cannot add both the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial templates to a human.

Why not? Nothing in the rules explicitly prohibits this.
blade265
11-12-07, 06:26 AM Why not? Nothing in the rules explicitly prohibits this. But where does it say that you can do it. if you go through the monster manual every creature has 1 and only 1 type, be it humanoid, dragon, outsider etc. Applying say half-dragon and half-fiend templates would give it 2 types, dragon and outsider. If you want a rule that explicitly prohibits this how about this 1:
"Rules of the game, Types and Templates part 1.
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a)
Type:
A broad category of creatures that have certain gross characteristics in common, such as anatomy, metabolism (or lack thereof), and propensity for language and social interaction.

A creature type includes basic game statistics, which are divided into features and traits. A type's features always include four key game elements: size of Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and skill points. A type's list of traits are less cut and dried than its features and can include senses (such as darkvision), weapon and armor proficiencies, languages, and basic biological details (such as the need to eat and sleep).

Every creature has one -- and only one -- type."
runestar
11-12-07, 08:39 AM But where does it say that you can do it.

???

Half dragon can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

"Half-fiend" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Nothing mutually exclusive about these 2 templates, regardless of the order in which you apply them in. There is nothing preventing you from applying the half-fiend template to a dragon, so a human with the half-dragon template is equally fair-game. Same for the reverse.

The Savage Species Handbook has this pyramid structure showing the stacking order of priority of different types, and I believe that outsider trumps dragon.

At the end of the day, a human with both half-dragon and half-fiend templates will still only have 1 type. Half-dragon changes its type to dragon, while half-fiend trumps this by changing it to outsider.

Either that, or half-fiend changes your type to native outsider, then you add half-dragon, and it tries to change your type from outsider to dragon, but fails (and your type remains as outsider).

So at the end of the day, you still have only 1 type.

I don't see the significance of your quote...:confused:
blade265
11-12-07, 11:23 AM ???

Half dragon can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

"Half-fiend" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Nothing mutually exclusive about these 2 templates, regardless of the order in which you apply them in. There is nothing preventing you from applying the half-fiend template to a dragon, so a human with the half-dragon template is equally fair-game. Same for the reverse.

The Savage Species Handbook has this pyramid structure showing the stacking order of priority of different types, and I believe that outsider trumps dragon.

At the end of the day, a human with both half-dragon and half-fiend templates will still only have 1 type. Half-dragon changes its type to dragon, while half-fiend trumps this by changing it to outsider.

Either that, or half-fiend changes your type to native outsider, then you add half-dragon, and it tries to change your type from outsider to dragon, but fails (and your type remains as outsider).

So at the end of the day, you still have only 1 type.

I don't see the significance of your quote...:confused:

Actually we are both right. we are sort of talking about two side of the same coin, it took me a while to work out what you were saying and even longer to sort out what I was saying. I understand now what you are saying and that you could be right. I was thinking that the template were added at the same time not one after the other.
vorpo
11-12-07, 12:18 PM This is the official response from RPGA

This is an issue that is not covered in the rules as written, therefore it will be up to the DM to adjudicate what they believe to be a fair and balanced ruling for their campaign. Wizards of the Coast game support representatives can only provide the service of clarifying the existing rules for our games. We cannot suggest official-sounding house rules to patch issues that are not covered in the rules. The DM is the master of that arena. Only they know what works best for their games.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vitarri_Whitemane 11-09-07, 02:04 PM	I had an idea for an wandering half-elf character who doesn't so much become more experienced as he evolves. 1 Sorcerer/3 Half-elf/3 Human/10 Dragon Disciple/ 3 Half-Dragon is this legal?
Sinfire Titan 11-09-07, 02:11 PM	I had an idea for an wandering half-elf character who doesn't so much become more experienced as he evolves. 1 Sorcerer/3 Half-elf/3 Human/10 Dragon Disciple/ 3 Half-Dragon is this legal? I see nothing wrong with it.
Eerongal 11-09-07, 02:20 PM	It's possible for a powerful magic effect such as shapechange, reincarnate, or wish to change a character's race. If a character has already taken racial paragon levels in his original race, he can never become a paragon of another race. However, such shapechanging and form-altering magics also cause no loss of a paragon's class abilities—the class abilities gained from racial paragon levels are affected no more or less drastically than benefits gained from having levels in any other class. Divided Ancestry (Ex) Unlike other racial paragons, half-elves can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After gaining at least one level as a half-elf paragon, a character can take either elf paragon levels or human paragon levels (but not both). You can only have one paragon class, but half elf and half orc paragons make an exception allowing you access to one other paragon class, specifically human or orc/elf, no others.
blade265 11-10-07, 01:26 PM	Half elf and Half Dragon will not stack. The first thing one must consider when stacking any templates is whether or not the templates create any mutually exclusive paradoxes. You can't create a creature with both the half-fiend and half-dragon templates, in the same way you wouldn't create a half-orc using the the half-human and half-orc templates together. It's either a half-fiendish dragon or half-dragon fiend. or simply half orc in the latter case. "Half"- templates all work this way. Book of Templates p241
Eerongal 11-10-07, 01:49 PM	Half elf and Half Dragon will not stack. The first thing one must consider when stacking any templates is whether or not the templates create any mutually exclusive paradoxes. You can't create a creature with both the half-fiend and half-dragon templates, in the same way you wouldn't create a half-orc using the the half-human and half-orc templates together. It's either a half-fiendish dragon or half-dragon fiend. or simply half orc in the latter case. "Half"- templates all work this way. Book of Templates p241 the book of templates is not a wizards book, but a 3rd party supplement. Core, you can stack half-X templates all you want.
DarkChipmunk 11-10-07, 07:09 PM	Furthermore this question has nothing to do with templates. By RAW your build, sadly, cannot take Half-Dragon Paragon. If it were me DMing? I'd let you do it, because I think its awesome and it won't break the game any.
CrimsonDeath 11-11-07, 12:18 AM	Half elf and Half Dragon will not stack. The first thing one must consider when stacking any templates is whether or not the templates create any mutually exclusive paradoxes. You can't create a creature with both the half-fiend and half-dragon templates, in the same way you wouldn't create a half-orc using the the half-human and half-orc templates together. It's either a half-fiendish dragon or half-dragon fiend. or simply half orc in the latter case. "Half"- templates all work this way. Book of Templates p241 Actually, nothing stops you from applying the Half-Fiend template to an existing nongood Half-Dragon, nor the Half-Dragon template to an existing Half-Fiend. Both require a "living corporeal creature", with Half-Fiend specifying nongood creatures. The resulting creature would most likely, in actuality, be a quarter-Fiend, quarter-Dragon-- probably a Half-Fiend parent and a Half-Dragon parent. You could even, in fact, apply the Half-Fiend and Half-Dragon templates to a Half-Elf, creating a Quarter-Dragon Quarter-Feind Quarter Elf. Also, I'm not aware of a Half-Human or Half-Orc template (although I am familiar with the Half-Orc race).
blade265 11-12-07, 03:40 AM	Actually, nothing stops you from applying the Half-Fiend template to an existing nongood Half-Dragon, nor the Half-Dragon template to an existing Half-Fiend. Both require a "living corporeal creature", with Half-Fiend specifying nongood creatures. The resulting creature would most likely, in actuality, be a quarter-Fiend, quarter-Dragon-- probably a Half-Fiend parent and a Half-Dragon parent. You could even, in fact, apply the Half-Fiend and Half-Dragon templates to a Half-Elf, creating a Quarter-Dragon Quarter-Feind Quarter Elf. Also, I'm not aware of a Half-Human or Half-Orc template (although I am familiar with the Half-Orc race).That was my mistake the half-elf is a race not a template and therefore can have a half-dragon template added, my bad. the following is from wizards : "Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support. Templates have to be added to a base race. A template is not a base race, therefore you could not apply the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial template to only each other and end up with a working creature. Also, you cannot add both the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial templates to a human. The human has only 2 parents. A Human, and either a dragon or a celestial. The human can't be half of three different things. A half-elf on the other hand, is a race, not a template. Therefore you could have a Half-dragon whose parents are a dragon and a half-elf. You would apply the Half-Dragon template to the half-elf race."
runestar 11-12-07, 03:46 AM	Also, you cannot add both the Half-Dragon template and the Half-Celestial templates to a human. Why not? Nothing in the rules explicitly prohibits this.
blade265 11-12-07, 06:26 AM	Why not? Nothing in the rules explicitly prohibits this. But where does it say that you can do it. if you go through the monster manual every creature has 1 and only 1 type, be it humanoid, dragon, outsider etc. Applying say half-dragon and half-fiend templates would give it 2 types, dragon and outsider. If you want a rule that explicitly prohibits this how about this 1: "Rules of the game, Types and Templates part 1. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a) Type: A broad category of creatures that have certain gross characteristics in common, such as anatomy, metabolism (or lack thereof), and propensity for language and social interaction. A creature type includes basic game statistics, which are divided into features and traits. A type's features always include four key game elements: size of Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and skill points. A type's list of traits are less cut and dried than its features and can include senses (such as darkvision), weapon and armor proficiencies, languages, and basic biological details (such as the need to eat and sleep). Every creature has one -- and only one -- type."
runestar 11-12-07, 08:39 AM	But where does it say that you can do it. ??? Half dragon can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). "Half-fiend" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Nothing mutually exclusive about these 2 templates, regardless of the order in which you apply them in. There is nothing preventing you from applying the half-fiend template to a dragon, so a human with the half-dragon template is equally fair-game. Same for the reverse. The Savage Species Handbook has this pyramid structure showing the stacking order of priority of different types, and I believe that outsider trumps dragon. At the end of the day, a human with both half-dragon and half-fiend templates will still only have 1 type. Half-dragon changes its type to dragon, while half-fiend trumps this by changing it to outsider. Either that, or half-fiend changes your type to native outsider, then you add half-dragon, and it tries to change your type from outsider to dragon, but fails (and your type remains as outsider). So at the end of the day, you still have only 1 type. I don't see the significance of your quote...:confused:
blade265 11-12-07, 11:23 AM	??? Half dragon can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). "Half-fiend" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Nothing mutually exclusive about these 2 templates, regardless of the order in which you apply them in. There is nothing preventing you from applying the half-fiend template to a dragon, so a human with the half-dragon template is equally fair-game. Same for the reverse. The Savage Species Handbook has this pyramid structure showing the stacking order of priority of different types, and I believe that outsider trumps dragon. At the end of the day, a human with both half-dragon and half-fiend templates will still only have 1 type. Half-dragon changes its type to dragon, while half-fiend trumps this by changing it to outsider. Either that, or half-fiend changes your type to native outsider, then you add half-dragon, and it tries to change your type from outsider to dragon, but fails (and your type remains as outsider). So at the end of the day, you still have only 1 type. I don't see the significance of your quote...:confused: Actually we are both right. we are sort of talking about two side of the same coin, it took me a while to work out what you were saying and even longer to sort out what I was saying. I understand now what you are saying and that you could be right. I was thinking that the template were added at the same time not one after the other.
vorpo 11-12-07, 12:18 PM	This is the official response from RPGA This is an issue that is not covered in the rules as written, therefore it will be up to the DM to adjudicate what they believe to be a fair and balanced ruling for their campaign. Wizards of the Coast game support representatives can only provide the service of clarifying the existing rules for our games. We cannot suggest official-sounding house rules to patch issues that are not covered in the rules. The DM is the master of that arena. Only they know what works best for their games.