Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 04-18-07, 04:44 PM	I am interested in adopting the True20 Toughness save system in my D&D games, replacing the HP system. One main reason for this is the simplicity of a saving throw mechanic, and the simplicity of the damage system, combined with the fact that tough characters in True20 are able to take hits and not suffer any damage what so ever; In D&D, if an attack is successful and you don't have rediculous DR, you'll always suffer damage. The system is similar to the Injury system in Unearthed Arcana. The full rules can be found HERE (http://www.true20.com/files/true20revdmg.pdf). Now, I'm not here to debate Toughness saves vs. HP, as I've already decided that I'd like to use Toughness if it can be balanced. What I'm looking for here is assistance testing it, and discussion on translating the system. At a glance, here are the changes required by the system: To Hit moves from Str to Dex: Armor provides bonus Toughness now, and thus Str is needed to increase Damage to get through Toughness. (One may argue the need for an Agility stat in such a system, as Dex might become overloaded with To Hit, AC, Reflex, Initiative, and a host of skills). Armor and Natural Armor bonuses increase Toughness. Dex, Dodge, Deflection, and Shield bonuses still increase AC (though AC should be called Defense). Magic Weapons will grant +1 to hit and +1 damage still. Weapon Specialization will need to be changed to deal +1 damage (since damage is more important now). I need to discuss if Str damage should be increased by 1.5 for two-handed weapons still. Weapons will have a damage bonus rating. This requires a new weapon balance calculator to be designed, but the basics are as follows: Light Weapons deal +0 damage, One-handed weapons deal +1 damage, and Two-handed weapons deal +2 damage; simple weapons get a +1 bonus (either to damage, threat range, crit bonus*, throwing, or other special abilities), martials get +2, and exotics get +3. Criticals could double, tripple, or quadrupal damage bonuses, or they could simply increase damage by an amount (True20 has criticals increasing damage). Magic will require the most workarounds, so I'll save that for last. One worry is that Defense bonuses (AC) will be very low if they are only gained from Dex, Dodge, Deflection, and Shield bonuses. This might be countered by the ease of increasing Toughness saves, but if Defense (AC) is so low that it doesn't matter, than it really doesn't matter. I'm currently running a test, having a fighter of various levels beat on itself, to see how many rounds it takes, on average, to defeat itself in the HP system or the Toughness system. Then I'll be converting three monsters of each test CR to do similar comparisons. Again, I'm worried about Defense (AC) bonuses. I'll also be checking similar house rules, as I've seen others before, to see what they've done. Any help will be appreciated.
Glak 04-18-07, 05:38 PM	why not use a Base Defense bonus? Make it mirror BAB. You have 1, 3/4, and 1/2 progressions. Something like this: 1: Fighter, Ranger, Monk (+WIS), Barbarian, Rogue 3/4: Paladin, Cleric, Bard, Druid 1/2: Wizard, Sorceror Thus as characters level BAB and BDB counteract each other. Magical weapons give +1 to hit and +1 to damage. Magical shields give +1 to defense. Magical armor gives +1 to toughness. It all works out.
Xeviat-DM 04-18-07, 06:47 PM	Because that causes one huge problem, and this problem exists in True20: Fighter's base attack at 20th level equals: d20+20+dex+enhancements Wizards base attack at 20th level equals: d20+10+dex+enhancements But ... Fighter's base defense at 20th level equals: 30+dex+enhancements Wizards base defense at 20th level equals: 20+dex+enhancements If their dexterity scores are reasonably equal and their enhancements are reasonably equal, the Fighter will almost always hit the wizard, while the wizard will almost never hit the fighter (wizard needs to roll a 20 to hit the fighter). Normally, wizards had a great chance of hitting warriors and combat creatures with ray spells at least, but since touch attacks are the same as regular attacks, since armor and natural armor apply to toughness not defense, wizards have no use for ray spells at high levels. True20 fails in this respect. A wizard has to roll a 20 to succeed on a ray spell at 20th level, but their ray spell deals +20 damage (DC 35 Toughness save to survive). Since True20 doesn't have magical armor, or other non-feat ways of boosting Toughness, a 20th level fighter might have Con Bonus +10 toughness, and will probably die if hit by said wizard's attack. Worse still, the wizard could just make the spell a little harder to cast to make it an area affect, requiring a Reflex save (DC 30) to resist taking a DC 35 toughness injury, or DC 17 if they succeed the save. They probably won't succeed the save, and they'll die. If a defense bonus is needed, I'll structure it just like the saving throw (0-6, 1-9, or 2-12), so wizards have a chance of scoring a hit against warriors.
Glak 04-18-07, 09:20 PM	yes I see what you mean. Perhaps the problem is that everything progresses linearly with level.
RobbyPants 04-19-07, 03:05 PM	One worry is that Defense bonuses (AC) will be very low if they are only gained from Dex, Dodge, Deflection, and Shield bonuses. This might be countered by the ease of increasing Toughness saves, but if Defense (AC) is so low that it doesn't matter, than it really doesn't matter. Perhaps you want somewhat of a comprimise. In the armor as DR varient, half of the AC bonus goes to AC and the other half to DR. You could so something similar (half to defense and half to toughness). The idea behind this is that many armors (particularly plate armors) are more designed to deflect a blow rather than to absorb it. Granted, this might not seem particularly realistic with chain or leather armors. You could also develop a hybrid if you want (going half and half for plates, but putting all to toughness for chain and leather), but this adds more (possibly unwanted) complexity. Have you playtested this much, or is it still in the early stages?
starfire311 04-19-07, 04:53 PM	If a defense bonus is needed, I'll structure it just like the saving throw (0-6, 1-9, or 2-12), so wizards have a chance of scoring a hit against warriors. this is sort of what I have done, this won't work great in true 20 since everything is touch attacks, but IMC everyone gets a dodge bonus = ref save, and parry bonus = 1/2 BAB(this functions jsut like a shield bonus, but stacks with shield bonuses)
Xeviat-DM 04-20-07, 12:11 AM	I'm not looking to play True20, I'm looking to use elements of True20 to change my D&D games. I've found enough holes and oddities in True20 to not want to deal with the system itself.
polt 04-20-07, 08:31 AM	www.creationforge.blogspot.com Might have exactly what you need.
Xeviat-DM 04-20-07, 06:40 PM	www.creationforge.blogspot.com Might have exactly what you need. Not to insult who ever's blog this is, but it is very incomplete. It doesn't address many things that must be addressed in such a system. Robby, as for half Defense, half DR, I considered that, but here's an issue. If you're wearing plate, and you're hit with an attack that is deflected, it's deflected because the attack was too weak to penitrate the toughness bonus. If you're hit square on, you'll feel the blow, but it will feel absorbed. I understand where you're coming from, but having armor be one or the other is more simplistic than doing half and half. I like the idea of having Toughness and Defense, because it removes the need for touch attacks.
polt 04-21-07, 04:00 AM	[QUOTE=Xeviat-DM;12164573]Not to insult who ever's blog this is, but it is very incomplete. It doesn't address many things that must be addressed in such a system. [QUOTE] None taken. It's still lincomplete, what do you think needs adressed that isn't?
Xeviat-DM 04-21-07, 08:12 AM	None taken. It's still lincomplete, what do you think needs adressed that isn't? I'll try to be as consice as I can be: Dex is now overpowered; how will this be dealt with? Perhaps Max Dex from armor affects Max Dex for attack rolls. How does it effect the CR of creatures? How much extra WP do larger creatures gain? How do magic items function? That's just a start. I've built a test fighter that I am running tests against, and I'll post the results of my tests (i'll be testing the fighter against itself to see if the rounds of combat compare on average, and then I'll test the fighter's offense and defense against simple creatures of different CRs). I think that spells should be handled differently. Rather than having +level damage, I think it should be +spell level+int bonus, so that it scales with the strength of the caster (and the save would be just like other saves). Also, elemental damage types shouldn't be protected by armor and what not, as armor didn't help against rays or area affects in standard D&D (thus, energy resistance becomes your way of boosting your toughness vs. energy attacks). Base toughness, if you decide to use it, and perhaps natural armor could apply; it all needs to be worked out. You need to decide on weapon balance. I've been using a weapon balance calculator system based on Conjurer's original, and it takes only a few tweeks to retool it. Does str multiply 1.5 with two handers? How will you handle TWFing? How much bonus damage do crits grant?